Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[T.o.b.y]

Yes, of course you are right.

I should have specified that I meant in s1. Sally is the only person from the yard that he addresses by given name then.

I do not know about trends in the English language that much but in Germany, we are perfectly fine using only the last name for women, too. It's actually stranger to use a given name, it somehow seems like the speaker needs to make clear who they are talking about. We are more rude, I suppose... so that's why I picked up on it. It is quite common to simply say "Merkel said" when that person is not present and one is not close to that person.

 

That shows how one should beware of generalizations! What part of Germany are you from? Me, I live in the north - not far from the Danish Border... And arrogant as I am, I always assumed that other people have my habits of speech as well... Your English is terribly good, by the way.

 

Come to think of it, Lestrade speaks of Sally as simply "Donovan", too, so I guess my theory doesn't hold up for any country. Damn.

 

Oh well, who knows what Sherlock's funny old brain was thinking there.

 

I totally agree that it would be a bit of a disappointment if Sally and Sherlock got along really well in the future. Sherlock's antagonism towards people in general and the world at large was one of the things that appealed to me so when I first "met" him. It's enough that he's reached a truce with Anderson.

[Zain]

O.o I never took you for a fellow German. 

Well, I am from the exact opposite, from the south. Franconia. I can give back your compliment straight away. I took you for a native speaker...

 

The yarders never use given names between them either. I suppose it's a form of "working ethics." 

Sherlock did call her Sally, though.

I suppose it can be interpreted as mocking, in a way? Because he is addressing her with less respect while pointing out her office "romance."

At any rate, I would not mind if Sally made her return in s4.

 

[T.o.b.y]

O.o I never took you for a fellow German.

I'll take that as a compliment

 

No, neither would I mind if we saw more of Sally. Didn't they hint that they wanted more women in series 4? Fine, lets have Sally, Mrs Holmes, Lady Smallwood and big chunks of screen time for Mrs Hudson and Molly. Especially Molly. Lovely Molly. Such a wonderful character she is, even when they make her slap Sherlock's face.

[Zain]

More women? Not sure if I can stomach a blood-thirsty female pirate or wanna-be ninja or whatever Moffat will be throwing at us next time. I love Molly's character but I believe she's this likable because they allowed her to develop instead of forcing her into some sort of "strong woman stereotype." She became a strong character, and that's why her character feels so natural.

At least, I feel like she fits perfectly into that universe.

 

Or does this seal the deal, do we get a female "Moriarty?" Worth a thought. Just to throw in one more possibility to the bottomless pit of strange fan guesses.

[T.o.b.y]

  I love Molly's character but I believe she's this likable because they allowed her to develop instead of forcing her into some sort of "strong woman stereotype."

 

Hear, hear!

 

I think Molly is the "realest" character on the show. I completely believe in her and I so hope they will not do anything with her like they did with Mary. Or Mrs Hudson, by the way. It is funny, but still, come on - Marijuana and exotic dancing?

 

[Slithytove]

May I say that you both have an amazing command of English. I am now cringing on behalf of the British people and our woeful inability to speak any language except our own. (Personally, I can make a pitiful attempt at French, just enough to make myself misunderstood in Paris, and that is all.)

 

As far as names are concerned, this is a broad generalisation but I would say that, in the UK, we don't tend to address women by their surnames alone. It happens sometimes, of course, and newspapers often refer to people in this way, but not a lot in general conversation, I think. I don't think I have ever referred to a female acquaintance just by her surname, and we tend to use the full name when referring to famous people. So we would refer to our Prime Minister by his surname, i.e. Cameron, but refer to the Home Secretary as Theresa May, rather than just May. One exception to this generalisation was the late Margaret Thatcher, the "Iron Lady" of British politics, whom many of us just called Thatcher. I'm not sure why - maybe it was because, whether you loved her or loathed her ( I'm afraid I was in the latter group!), she was more terrifying than any man.....Otherwise, I think it is just seen as a matter of courtesy to use a woman's full name or, if she is a friend, her first name only.

 

Also, in an attempt to appear less formal, some businesses and organisations have started using people's first names, rather than Mr, Mrs or Miss whatever. My doctor, for instance, now calls me by my first name, which he never used to do.

 

Of course, Sherlock isn't Sally's friend and he isn't trying to put her at ease. Maybe he is deliberately trying belittle her - couldn't really blame him, when she is so rude to him. However, I prefer to think that it is a remnant of his upbringing, and that Mummy Holmes taught him to address a woman politely, even if every subsequent word out of his mouth is an insult.....

[Zain]

Interesting. Thank you for the information!

 

Just to clarify:

If I remember correctly, Sherlock is usually referring to women the way you said. There are not many women in the show but I think he calls Irene "Ms Adler", to name an example. Then there's of course Mrs Hudson.

Is there an overly familiar connotation to him calling Donovan "Sally?" She does not correct him. So it probably is not the first time he called her that. Is the form of address something people fixate on, would a woman feel belittled if she was to be addressed by her given name without consent? You described that some firms do so now, but I suppose they ask for permission.

 

And thank you for the compliment as well. I'd say we just have a greater need to become proficient in other languages because German is not the best language to "get around with."  It's not like we can expect other people to learn German with its irregularities and complex structures. I'd call it one of the most horrible languages to acquire as a second language.

[Janie]

We must be really rude nation then because we normally talk about other women by their surnames. Sometimes even friends call each other like that In a friendly way of course. 

 

 

 

And thank you for the compliment as well. I'd say we just have a greater need to become proficient in other languages because German is not the best language to "get around with."  It's not like we can expect other people to learn German with its irregularities and complex structures. I'd call it one of the most horrible languages to acquire as a second language.

 

I agree (sorry). I had German at school (it was a compulsory subject) but all I'd manage to say now is "Guten Tag"

 

And about Sherlock and Sally... I think he called her Sally only in ASiP. For example in TRF he said "I bet it was Donovan". 

[Arcadia]

May I say that you both have an amazing command of English.

May I heartily agree?

I am now cringing on behalf of the British people and our woeful inability to speak any language except our own.

Thanks, that makes me feel a little better, since I am now cringing on behalf of the American people and our woeful inability to speak any language properly.

 

BTW, since we're discussing language ... both Mycroft and Sherlock in this episode say "Merry Christmas." Yet growing up I always heard the British term was "Happy Christmas." Was that wrong? Just an invention of the Beatles? Or has it changed over the years?

[Caya]

Of course, Sherlock isn't Sally's friend and he isn't trying to put her at ease. Maybe he is deliberately trying belittle her - couldn't really blame him, when she is so rude to him. However, I prefer to think that it is a remnant of his upbringing, and that Mummy Holmes taught him to address a woman politely, even if every subsequent word out of his mouth is an insult.....

 

Did he ever insult Sally Donovan, though? Maybe my mind is slipping but I can't remember any insults - except for that remark about the state of her knees, and that was only after Anderson goaded him into it (besides, it was an observation, so to speak ). Sherlock calls Anderson all variations of stupid, of course, but did he ever target Donovan?

 

As for language proficiency, I guess when you're a native speaker of English (which has become the lingua franca of our age) there's simply less of a motivation to learn another language. Most films, series and books are produced in English as well, so there goes that reason. Besides, your beautiful language has so many niceties (like lack of a grammatical gender, for the most part) that other languages lack, I wouldn't want to put up with that in another language either .

[Carol the Dabbler]

As for language proficiency, I guess when you're a native speaker of English (which has become the lingua franca of our age) there's simply less of a motivation to learn another language. Most films, series and books are produced in English as well, so there goes that reason. Besides, your beautiful language has so many niceties (like lack of a grammatical gender, for the most part) that other languages lack, I wouldn't want to put up with that in another language either .

 

Besides, if you happen to live where most of the people on the entire continent (or the entire island) speak English -- why bother?  I hear Europeans criticize and/or ridicule Americans for being monolingual, but if the people in Kentucky all spoke French and the people in Ohio all spoke German, I'd presumably have a fair knowledge of those languages, just as many Europeans have the incentive to do.

 

For the record, though, I am capable of having conversations in broken Spanish.  (The opportunity rarely arises, so I've forgotten a good deal of vocabulary as well as how to conjugate anything except simple present tense.)

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Used to know a little Navajo and Cherokee....but have pretty much lost them both. Still know the Navajo words for mother and mud though.

[Arcadia]

 

As for language proficiency, I guess when you're a native speaker of English (which has become the lingua franca of our age) there's simply less of a motivation to learn another language. Most films, series and books are produced in English as well, so there goes that reason. Besides, your beautiful language has so many niceties (like lack of a grammatical gender, for the most part) that other languages lack, I wouldn't want to put up with that in another language either .

 

Besides, if you happen to live where most of the people on the entire continent (or the entire island) speak English -- why bother?  I hear Europeans criticize and/or ridicule Americans for being monolingual, but if the people in Kentucky all spoke French and the people in Ohio all spoke German, I'd presumably have a fair knowledge of those languages, just as many Europeans have the incentive to do.

I don't know if it's gotten like this out in the great Midwest, but here in the metropolitan DC area it's such a polyglot that it can be tough just conversing with your neighbor!  That's one of the things I love about D.C. proper, actually; there's very few languages you won't hear spoken there.

[Zain]

 

Besides, if you happen to live where most of the people on the entire continent (or the entire island) speak English -- why bother?  I hear Europeans criticize and/or ridicule Americans for being monolingual, but if the people in Kentucky all spoke French and the people in Ohio all spoke German, I'd presumably have a fair knowledge of those languages, just as many Europeans have the incentive to do.

 

 

Sure, I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I would like to add that even if you are not surrounded by people which speak another language, one should not underestimate the power of communication, especially on a political level. Often, we are taken in by our media (TV, newspapers) and do not consider another nation's perspective on international matters. I find it rather important to look at both sides, and I often compare articles and websites of newspapers (English, American, German, sometimes French or Spanish). We may think there's a clear picture who or what is right/wrong, or even what kind of news is important, but evidently, it is not. News reports are far from objective, they are always influenced by cultural values. They are essentially interpretations, reflections. That's why we are prone to miscommunication. I believe that, if you have some sort of official position, you should be able to understand and express yourself in at least one another language. Language is a tool of power, it enables you to communicate with someone without another medium, without a translator. The real decisions, the real discussions are not held in front of cameras. It's when a politician seeks out another politician and talks to them in private. 

 

 

 

Did he ever insult Sally Donovan, though? Maybe my mind is slipping but I can't remember any insults - except for that remark about the state of her knees, and that was only after Anderson goaded him into it (besides, it was an observation, so to speak ). Sherlock calls Anderson all variations of stupid, of course, but did he ever target Donovan?

 

 

 

That is a very good point. No, I cannot recollect any occasion at which Sherlock insulted Sally. Maybe because she's female, maybe because she is not doing such a bad job as Anderson? Or the writers simply did not want to write anything into the script that could be interpreted as racism by anybody.

I quite like to imagine some sort of history between them. It's much more amusing than the other possibility.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I quite like to imagine some sort of history between them. It's much more amusing than the other possibility.

 

   I always thought there was something back in "A Study in Pink" when Sherlock introduces Sally to John as "an old friend". I know some have interpreted his tone of voice of be sarcastic.....I don't hear it that way. Maybe he had liked her...even respected her at one point...but something happened.

[Zain]

Yes, that's my preferred reading, too.

Lestrade mentioned that he knew Sherlock for five years, back in s1. Maybe that was around the time Sally joined the team, too. She cannot have been part of Lestrade's team that much longer. So it's possible that she once connected more strongly with him than what we get to see in the episodes. They were both young, after all. Maybe she interpreted Sherlock's almost manic ways as an outburst of his desire to bring the culprits to justice. And got severely disappointed.

Or, and that's bordering on crack theory, maybe Sally was Sherlock's former "assistant?" After all, "Lestrade knows Sherlock needs an assistant." It makes one wonder who his former assistant had been. The one that was not around anymore in s1. 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Very true.  Maybe she wasn't satisfied with being just as assistant?  She does seem to be ambitious and has drive.

[Slithytove]

Actually, now I come to think of it, I'm not sure Sherlock ever did insult Sally. ( This rather fits my theory that he is much ruder to people who are nice to him - either he relies on them to forgive him, or he is a masochist. ) That makes her rudeness to him even worse.

 

On the subject of language......I had to think about Merry vs Happy Christmas. I believe they are pretty much interchangeable, but the former may be slightly more formal, the sort of thing you might say when toasting the season. In my family, we say Happy Christmas to each other on Christmas morning and that might be the slightly more usual term. Mycroft & Sherlock are posh and quite old-fashioned - hence all the "brother mine" stuff, which I've never, ever heard anyone say - and might prefer the slightly more formal greeting. For instance, when proposing the toast in the best man's speech, Sherlock says, "Ladies and gentlemen, pray charge your glasses and be upstanding", which is the correct way to phrase it and you do hear people use that form of words but only at quite formal occasions. I imagine that Mummy Holmes brought up her little boys to use the language properly.

 

I suppose the dominance of the English language does remove a powerful motivation for learning other tongues, but here in the UK we seem to be really bad at other languages in general. Most of us have slaved away at French for several years at school, and sometimes some German too, but most of us are still pretty rubbish at it. I live in a racially diverse city where Gujerati, Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu and Mandarin are commonly spoken, so you'd think I might know something of those languages, but no......Even worse, I've been married for 37 years to a man who speaks three Asian languages and a smattering of Swahili and I haven't really picked up any of those languages, except for a small but varied vocabulary of rude words and cookery terms......

[Zain]

Actually, now I come to think of it, I'm not sure Sherlock ever did insult Sally. ( This rather fits my theory that he is much ruder to people who are nice to him - either he relies on them to forgive him, or he is a masochist. ) That makes her rudeness to him even worse.

 

 Mycroft & Sherlock are posh and quite old-fashioned - hence all the "brother mine" stuff, which I've never, ever heard anyone say - and might prefer the slightly more formal greeting. For instance, when proposing the toast in the best man's speech, Sherlock says, "Ladies and gentlemen, pray charge your glasses and be upstanding", which is the correct way to phrase it and you do hear people use that form of words but only at quite formal occasions. I imagine that Mummy Holmes brought up her little boys to use the language properly.

 

 

Brother mine. Is it a valid and neutral expression? Or does it have a rather possessive connotation (for you native speakers)?

 

I always took that as an implication that he did feel strongly about Sherlock. They did not give us many information about Mycroft, and often, he was depicted as cold and calculating. It struck me as rather defining that he never talks about anything personal. Nothing that belongs to him. No house, no car. No hobby. No mentions of close relations. But then he stresses his relation to Sherlock. In my head canon, Mycroft clings to their connection because there's not much else in his life. Work doesn't leave much room for anything else. And maybe Sherlock got too close to dying while he was doing drugs, so that Mycroft had at one point to consider life without his brother. So, I kind of felt there was a rather possessive streak in Mycroft. Just like he is trying to control his brother's life.

 

Sherlock is ruder to people he cares about, yes, isn't he? Like he is intentionally calling Lestrade whatever name he can think of that begins with G but is not his true name, or the way he pushes people away. A strange coping mechanism from his childhood, maybe. I imagine Mycroft was stronger in many ways. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't know if it's gotten like this out in the great Midwest, but here in the metropolitan DC area it's such a polyglot that it can be tough just conversing with your neighbor!   That's one of the things I love about D.C. proper, actually; there's very few languages you won't hear spoken there.

A lot of big cities anywhere are presumably like that, but here in central Indiana, about all you hear is English (mostly) and Spanish. There are exceptions, of course, and we also know people whose native languages are German, Hindi, and Chinese.

 

On the subject of language......I had to think about Merry vs Happy Christmas. I believe they are pretty much interchangeable, but the former may be slightly more formal, the sort of thing you might say when toasting the season. In my family, we say Happy Christmas to each other on Christmas morning and that might be the slightly more usual term.

Interesting. It's definitely the opposite in the US. In fact, "Happy Christmas" is such a rare expression here that I've seen Clement Moore's authorship of "A Visit From St. Nicholas" disputed (in part) because Henry Livingston, the other possible author often said "Happy Christmas," as used in the poem's ending.

 

... I've been married for 37 years to a man who speaks three Asian languages and a smattering of Swahili and I haven't really picked up any of those languages, except for a small but varied vocabulary of rude words and cookery terms......

 

Isn't that always what we tend to pick up?  I worked for a fellow from the Netherlands for years, and the only Dutch I picked up from him was a few swear words -- but in my own defense, I must say that I think that's because that's about the only Dutch words I ever heard him use.  We all tend to swear in our native language, I think!

 

Brother mine. Is it a valid and neutral expression? Or does it have a rather possessive connotation (for you native speakers)?

Here in the US, "brother mine" would be considered an archaic phrase, used only for effect. I'm trying to think what people would actually say -- probably "brother dear," which is also archaic, but still in common use as a cliche.  It's always dangerous to generalize across the Atlantic, but my impression is that Mycroft is just showing off.

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

I always took that as an implication that he did feel strongly about Sherlock. They did not give us many information about Mycroft, and often, he was depicted as cold and calculating. It struck me as rather defining that he never talks about anything personal. Nothing that belongs to him. No house, no car. No hobby. No mentions of close relations. But then he stresses his relation to Sherlock. In my head canon, Mycroft clings to their connection because there's not much else in his life. Work doesn't leave much room for anything else. And maybe Sherlock got too close to dying while he was doing drugs, so that Mycroft had at one point to consider life without his brother. So, I kind of felt there was a rather possessive streak in Mycroft. Just like he is trying to control his brother's life.

 

That is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, if you ask me. In The Empty Hearse, Sherlock remarks that he thought Mycroft might have found himself a "goldfish" because Sherlock hadn't been around for two years, so Sherlock was (and is) pretty much his only meaningful human connection.

 

 

[Janine M. Adler]

I know it is very silly thought, but there is another rumor in the fandom that Mary is the other one. 

I don't believe this theory, still it's an interesting idea, I think.

[Zain]

And how do they explain Mycroft's comment? "You know what happened to the other one?" While I am all in favor of wild theories, speculation, and what not, I can't see where this theory is coming from. Can you go into detail? I'd be interested in the theory's specifics.

[Arcadia]

Well, if Mary IS the other one, then we know what happened to her -- she became some sort of operative, then dropped out, went on the run, changed her identity, and tried to change her life.

 

Too much for me to buy into, but anything's possible. The only thing I feel like I "know" about Mary at this point is that she loves John. She'd have too; otherwise I can't see her still agreeing to marry him after Sherlock returns from the dead. Sherlock's existence is such a threat to her; the one person who is most capable of figuring out who she really is, AND he has a smarter brother. Who is the government. She's either head over heels in love, or a lot dumber than she looks. Or in Mycroft's employ. Or ..... help, the possibilities are endless! Please, tho, not the Other One! Cheesy!

[T.o.b.y]

Too much for me to buy into, but anything's possible. The only thing I feel like I "know" about Mary at this point is that she loves John.

 

Exactly. And frankly, I think that is the main reason Sherlock trusts her and encourages John to do the same.