Molly Hooper

[SanaB]

I understood the One-that-mattered-the-most-line also as a thank you. Not in words but in meaning and gesture. He didn't took it for granted what she had done for him. And he remembered that she said "she didn't count" in order to tell her that she actually counts. And I don't mean that in a hyper romantic but more respectful way.

 

I'm always suprised when he kisses her on the cheek because he doesn't have to do it....this physical contact. Words would have been enough and he usually never does more, only the things he must. And these kisses, although only on the cheek, are an act of tenderness you wouldn't exspect him to do.

[gerry]

Molly was downplaying what she did and basically saying he didn't have to say thank you because she's just too nice. I would have said your welcome, lol. He was trying to tell her that it did matter and ascribing a larger value on it than she was so from that perspective I agree with you but it was still in the context of the Moriarty fake death plot. I've seen people assign a larger meaning to that line in a romantic context or that she mattered the most/counts in his life generally, which is the interpretation I've never agreed with. Regardless, I've always been amused that Sherlock thought solving crimes with him serves as saying thank you. I guess he really views that as a privilege but I don't know what one has to do with the other otherthan Sherlock couldn't think of anything else.

 

At first I was very surprised by the kiss as well but in the context of the dialogue it was almost like his way of saying good bye to her because he was saying he wanted her to be happy with Tom. Almost like giving his blessing, maybe, because he thought she was moving on.

[Arcadia]

That's exactly how I saw it as well; he realized she'd found someone, and was wishing her well, and saying goodbye. Which made me sad because there was a moment before that when I got the impression he genuinely wanted something more ... just friendship, probably, but a closer connection at any rate ... and then he realized he'd just be in the way and removed himself from the equation. And without seeing that Molly was still his if he wanted her.  
 
Then S4 comes along, and somehow they're friends. When did that happen? It felt natural, though.

[gerry]

I think he realized when he met Tom at the end of TEH that she really hadn't moved on so it quickly went back to the status quo between them.

[SanaB]

I saw the scene in TEH in a slightly different light. I already mentioned that I’m for a relationship between Sherlock and Molly in case Sherlock is able to have one. But I want to look at it realistically. When I saw the episode a few years ago, I had no preference for a love constellation.

What impressed me at the scene was that he remembered her words "you said you would not count ...". Of course, Sherlock can remember many details, but he does not pay attention to many, because most are unimportant to him. But this sentence from Molly he kept in mind and in TEH he referred to it again. For me, his dealings with her were very respectful. He told her that she was important. And it is also not important whether or not it was in connection with the premonition of his death. What difference does it make? In my opinion, he thanked her here. One can, of course, discuss whether a working day with him is the appropriate method or not, but that was his choice. And I also don’t think it was arrogant to choose this, maybe he did not know better, maybe he wanted to spend time with her or, or ... there are so many reasons. Arrogance has always been a facade for him. For me it was a beautiful respectable scene.

He kissed her the second time already on the cheek. The first time was in Belgravia. There he did it to support an apology; in TEH he did it for another reason. But on both occasions he has supported emotions with the kiss. What is very unusual for Sherlock. I don’t think he wanted to say good-bye, but it was certainly a kind of melancholy. His face expression just before the kiss was very meaningful. Bittersweet. One of the few moments when Sherlock's facade falls.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Arcadia
set to default typeface; colored type hard to read in some themes

[gerry]

For me, his dealings with her were very respectful. He told her that she was important. And it is also not important whether or not it was in connection with the premonition of his death. What difference does it make? In my opinion, he thanked her here.

I agree Sherlock was respectful and thankful for her help in the fake death plot. I just don't think it made her any more important to him than she was before that which is why I don't ascribe a larger meaning to the mattered the most line.

 

And I also don’t think it was arrogant to choose this, maybe he did not know better, maybe he wanted to spend time with her or, or ... there are so many reasons. Arrogance has always been a facade for him.

I don't know that I'd call it arrogant. I found it funny because I couldn't understand the logic. I don't think it was about him wanting to spend time with her though since he spent more time thinking about and missing John. At one point he even called her John.

 

I do disagree that Sherlock's arrogance is a facade. I do think he does think quite highly of himself, even if he's at times awkward. I don't think when he's telling ohter people why they're an idiot that it's an act.

[Arcadia]

He kissed her the second time already on the cheek. The first time was in Belgravia. There he did it to support an apology; in TEH he did it for another reason. But on both occasions he has supported emotions with the kiss. What is very unusual for Sherlock. I don’t think he wanted to say good-bye, but it was certainly a kind of melancholy. His face expression just before the kiss was very meaningful. Bittersweet. One of the few moments when Sherlock's facade falls.

 

​It's bittersweet to me, too ... but I do think it is intentionally left unclear what he is feeling there, He could be regretting that he missed his chance with her, and he could just be admitting to himself that she can't be to him what John was. Or he could be faking the emotion because he thinks it's polite. Or something else entirely; how will we ever know what goes on in that funny old head of his?

 

I do think by the start of S4, though, that it's clear Molly has become part of his inner circle. At the christening she's perfectly at her ease with him, poking him in the ribs and teasing him. Later she celebrates his birthday with him. Stuff like that. That's the part that startled me a little, because the last time we saw them together in S3, she was slapping his face. Now we've got him almost panicking because he thinks she's about to die. Like I said, the progression makes sense to me, I just didn't really expect it. I like it, though.

[Artemis]

Now we've got him almost panicking because he thinks she's about to die.

 

I think he'd probably do that with anyone though to some extent, if their life depended on him in a situation he had no control over.  And she's one of the few in his circle, so it's even worse.  If he didn't almost panic, that would have seemed strange to me.  I didn't see his fear as indicative of anything more than that though.  They had their little squabbles, but I didn't think she ever completely exited his circle of friends.

 

 

[SanaB]

I do disagree that Sherlock's arrogance is a facade. I do think he does think quite highly of himself, even if he's at times awkward. I don't think when he's telling ohter people why they're an idiot that it's an act.

 

 

I agree, Sherlock thinks very highly of himself. And yes, his intelligence and also his behavior cause a certain lack of empathy. But he sometimes is also very aware of hiding something with it. Belgravia was the best example for it. Sherlock had already been in a bad mood when Molly arrived. It wasn't something personal, he acted out of frustration. He was hurt. In order to hide this and his vulnerability he overreacted and acted very arrogant. He didn't stop until Molly broke his facade in asking him why he was so mean all the time. Then he felt and showed shame.

[gerry]

I'm not sure it wasn't personal to Molly. He rolled his eyes as soon as he saw her and he wasn't acting like that before she got there.

 

What vulnerability, hurt and frustration do you think he masking? I didn't see any before the deduction.

[Boton]

 

 

I agree, Sherlock thinks very highly of himself. And yes, his intelligence and also his behavior cause a certain lack of empathy. But he sometimes is also very aware of hiding something with it. Belgravia was the best example for it. Sherlock had already been in a bad mood when Molly arrived. It wasn't something personal, he acted out of frustration. He was hurt. In order to hide this and his vulnerability he overreacted and acted very arrogant. He didn't stop until Molly broke his facade in asking him why he was so mean all the time. Then he felt and showed shame.

 

 

I think the whole situation with Irene had Sherlock on edge, and I think he was actually worried about her and was struggling with whatever growing attraction he had to her along with the mystery she presents. IMO, it is a bit of a leap to get her camera phone to show up on the mantle and immediately assume she's dead - it's logical, but it's far from the only possibility. I think he was worried about her safety from the start.

 

I also think that new feeling of affection or attraction for a woman sensitized him to the Molly situation, only about 45 seconds too late, which is why we get the scene we did.  The way I read the Molly scene, Sherlock doesn't see himself as a possible romantic interest of Molly's; she must be dolled up to see someone else, because he's deduced it isn't anyone in that room, and he doesn't even consider himself as an option.  Then, it sort of dawns on him partly because he's newly aware of how attraction can make you behave, and maybe for the first time he felt empathy in that situation rather than just an intellectual understanding.  Hence the shame and the true apology.

[gerry]

But why does it matter whether the supposed boyfriend was in the room or if it was Sherlock? His behavior towards Molly was atrocious and inappropriate regardless.

[Boton]

But why does it matter whether the supposed boyfriend was in the room or if it was Sherlock? His behavior towards Molly was atrocious and inappropriate regardless.

 

Well, yes, it was. It was cringeworthy, because it was kind of like stepping on a butterfly.  But the important part to me was that he realized it partway through - this was the first time (that I can think of) that Sherlock self-censored.

[Arcadia]

 

Now we've got him almost panicking because he thinks she's about to die.

 

I think he'd probably do that with anyone though to some extent, if their life depended on him in a situation he had no control over.  And she's one of the few in his circle, so it's even worse.  If he didn't almost panic, that would have seemed strange to me.  I didn't see his fear as indicative of anything more than that though.  They had their little squabbles, but I didn't think she ever completely exited his circle of friends.

 

Well, I was just comparing his behavior to that with the threat to the governor and the Garridebs. Or even with the little kid in TGG, when he has to figure out why the painting was a fake ... he was under pressure, and showed it, but it didn't seem like the same level of intensity to me. Very similar situation, though ... he knew the kid would die if he didn't get the answer.

 

It's interesting that he showed guilt and shame in TAB when he failed to save Sir Eustace ... (even though the louse wasn't worth saving. ) At the time I thought it was an odd reaction, because Sherlock's never revealed that about himself before, that I can recall. But now I think it was just another step to revealing to the audience how much he really does care about people, he just has trained himself not to show it. In retrospect, I now interpret his reaction in TGG, where the old lady gets blown up, as genuine remorse on Sherlock's part. In the context of that episode, though, you're meant to wonder if he really cared about what happened to her, or if he was just ticked off that he lost that round. He says the latter, but now I think he was lying. (Sort of always did, to be honest. )

 

I think I'm rambling. At any rate, all I meant to say was I thought he was shown as on the edge of losing control of himself when he thought Molly was the one who was about to die. And then afterwards, he did. Whatever that might mean, I can't say; the possibilities are extensive. Dang those Moftisses, always refusing to explain stuff.

[SanaB]

Not every reaction Sherlock does has to do with Molly not everything is personal. People are like that. They treat someone unfair because of inner frustration. He treated Lestrade a similar way. But he apologized...he honestly did and this was a great thing.

[Artemis]

Well, I was just comparing his behavior to that with the threat to the governor and the Garridebs. Or even with the little kid in TGG, when he has to figure out why the painting was a fake ... he was under pressure, and showed it, but it didn't seem like the same level of intensity to me. Very similar situation, though ... he knew the kid would die if he didn't get the answer.

Those were situations in which he was allowed to use his intellect to save someone though, and he's self-assured in that regard.  He had little to no intellectual control over Molly's life, he just had to hope she would respond the right way in time.  We don't often see him that helpless.

 

I would expect his outward concern to show a little less for a virtual stranger, but with a friend like Molly I still think it would have been very strange not to see visible concern/near panic from him.  To me it just seemed a natural reaction, not terribly different from the fear he showed when John was in the bonfire in TEH.

 

Oh I agree about Sir Eustace and the old woman, I always thought that he was genuinely upset about the old woman getting blown up.  I thought that was clear on his face when it happened.  If we were ever meant to wonder whether he really cared about people's lives, I guess it didn't really work on me, lol.  Even Moriarty knew he wasn't that heartless.

 

I'm probably rambling too, and not explaining myself very well.  I hope I'm making some sort of sense.  I'm running on 1 hour of sleep in three days and my brains are mushy, lol.

 

 

[gerry]

 

 

But why does it matter whether the supposed boyfriend was in the room or if it was Sherlock? His behavior towards Molly was atrocious and inappropriate regardless.

Well, yes, it was. It was cringeworthy, because it was kind of like stepping on a butterfly. But the important part to me was that he realized it partway through - this was the first time (that I can think of) that Sherlock self-censored.

did he self-censor? My recollection was he only stopped the deduction when he saw the label on the present and saw his name. He didn't stop before that.

[Boton]

 

 

But why does it matter whether the supposed boyfriend was in the room or if it was Sherlock? His behavior towards Molly was atrocious and inappropriate regardless.

Well, yes, it was. It was cringeworthy, because it was kind of like stepping on a butterfly. But the important part to me was that he realized it partway through - this was the first time (that I can think of) that Sherlock self-censored.

did he self-censor? My recollection was he only stopped the deduction when he saw the label on the present and saw his name. He didn't stop before that.

 

 

Yes, I count that as self-censoring.  True, he had to have an anvil fall on his head in the form of seeing the present, but I think that's when he realized that he could, in fact, be the target of Molly's affection, and that his diatribe before that had therefore been extremely hurtful.  All he could do is stop mid-sentence and deliver an apology, and I think that was the important part.

[gerry]

Do you think it was only hurtful because he could be the target of affection? If so, why? You wrote your thought in cause and effect manner so I wasn't sure.

[Boton]

Do you think it was only hurtful because he could be the target of affection? If so, why? You wrote your thought in cause and effect manner so I wasn't sure.

 

I think the diatribe was especially hurtful because it was humiliating for Molly, and it was humiliating because everyone in that room (except for Sherlock, for a while) knew perfectly well that she was making a desperation play.  Here she was, overdressed for drinks with friends, carrying a present for Sherlock that she probably chose and prepared carefully, and he dissected the entire encounter and laid it bare for everyone to see.  And then, once he sees his name, he has a flash of understanding just how terribly out of bounds he had gone.  

 

The deduction diatribe would have been hurtful even if it hadn't been Molly, even if it hadn't been in a small group of friends, and even if the target of affection hadn't been Sherlock, but each of those situations would have had some small escape route for the deduct-ee that would have made it a tiny bit bearable.  The fact that she was trapped in every possible way makes it horrifying and humiliating, and Sherlock finally sees that.  And, I think, it is partly because he knows his mind has been ruminating over someone that is not immediately accessible to him (Irene), and that little bit of empathy opened the door to him getting some perspective.

[SanaB]

Well Sherlock not only overreacted with Molly, he also did it with Lestrade. He reminded him of his wife who betrayed him in front of all the others. That was cruel as well but Lestrade didn't say a word. It escalated with Molly. I think the difference is that Mollys issue involved him. He suddenly realized that she did all that for him (the present, dress etc....)and remembered for a second how vulnerable you are when you feel that strong.

[Boton]

Agreed, SanaB.

 

And Lestrade is a different personality, and that was a different embarrassing situation.  Since Lestrade doesn't have some unrequited crush on Sherlock (except in fan fiction), I have always imagined him in that scene just keeping himself from saying, "oh, shut up, d*ckhead."  That tool isn't even in Molly's arsenal at that point, so she's defenseless.

[gerry]

The deduction diatribe would have been hurtful even if it hadn't been Molly, even if it hadn't been in a small group of friends, and even if the target of affection hadn't been Sherlock, but each of those situations would have had some small escape route for the deduct-ee that would have made it a tiny bit bearable.

I'm not sure what you mean by small escape route but I found what Sherlock said to be wrong just on the merits of what it was. He talked to her like she was a whore open for business based on how she was dressed and her make up, while assessing how big her breasts and lips looked, in a tone that reeked of disrespect. You don't talk to a woman like that, much less a supposed friend, so he shouldn't have needed the present to know what he said was atrocious. Whether his deduction was correct (i.e. unseen boyfriend or Sherlock) was irrelevant so that's why I don't give him credit for self censoring. That scene affected me so viscerally that it bothers me when Moffat and others claim once or because Sherlock realized that the present was for him, it was wrong. No it was wrong long before that.

[Artemis]

I don't think Boton was saying that what Sherlock did wasn't wrong until he saw his name on the present; just that it wasn't until he saw his name that he actually stopped and took notice of how cruel he was being.  It seemed to me that up to then he was just spouting off at the mouth because he was in some sort of bad mood, possibly preoccupied with Irene, and maybe a little overwhelmed by everyone crowding into his flat being social.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

It's interesting that he showed guilt and shame in TAB when he failed to save Sir Eustace ... (even though the louse wasn't worth saving. ) At the time I thought it was an odd reaction, because Sherlock's never revealed that about himself before, that I can recall. But now I think it was just another step to revealing to the audience how much he really does care about people, he just has trained himself not to show it.

 

But he shows it in TAB because we're not seeing Sherlock, we're seeing his self-image. Is that what you mean?