Molly Hooper

[SanaB]

Something I thought about too: Sherlock isn't used to that feeling, that someone loves him like Molly does. What Irene gave him was a different feeling. I think he recognizes it and that it touches him. But he isn't able to give much back.I think he doesn't know very well how to deal with it.

I mean this generally... Not concerning Belgravia.

[Arcadia]

 

It's interesting that he showed guilt and shame in TAB when he failed to save Sir Eustace ... (even though the louse wasn't worth saving. ) At the time I thought it was an odd reaction, because Sherlock's never revealed that about himself before, that I can recall. But now I think it was just another step to revealing to the audience how much he really does care about people, he just has trained himself not to show it.

But he shows it in TAB because we're not seeing Sherlock, we're seeing his self-image. Is that what you mean?

 

 

Yes, exactly. I probably didn't express it too well, but we're seeing how hard he is on himself for failing to save someone. Before, when that's happened, we've only seen him from the outside, where he doesn't reveal what he's feeling.

 

Something I thought about too: Sherlock isn't used to that feeling, that someone loves him like Molly does. What Irene gave him was a different feeling. I think he recognizes it and that it touches him. But he isn't able to give much back.I think he doesn't know very well how to deal with it.

I mean this generally... Not concerning Belgravia.

 

I agree. They set us up right from the very beginning ... the reaction he expects to receive from people is "piss off." Or "freak." Not declarations of affection.

[gerry]

He doesn't know how to deal with it but how he does is to talk to her like she's a whore? I'm not sure I buy that.

 

If a supposed friend was capable of talking to me like that I'd think it was symptomatic of a larger problem, that he truly did think that little of me, especially if he doesn't talk to the other women in his life like that (Mrs. H, mother, Irene, Janine, etc.). In context of that thinking, it actually makes sense that she assumes the worst in the TSOT scene when she believed he thought she was a drunk. It's very sad really.

[Boton]

 

The deduction diatribe would have been hurtful even if it hadn't been Molly, even if it hadn't been in a small group of friends, and even if the target of affection hadn't been Sherlock, but each of those situations would have had some small escape route for the deduct-ee that would have made it a tiny bit bearable.

I'm not sure what you mean by small escape route but I found what Sherlock said to be wrong just on the merits of what it was. He talked to her like she was a whore open for business based on how she was dressed and her make up, while assessing how big her breasts and lips looked, in a tone that reeked of disrespect. You don't talk to a woman like that, much less a supposed friend, so he shouldn't have needed the present to know what he said was atrocious. Whether his deduction was correct (i.e. unseen boyfriend or Sherlock) was irrelevant so that's why I don't give him credit for self censoring. That scene affected me so viscerally that it bothers me when Moffat and others claim once or because Sherlock realized that the present was for him, it was wrong. No it was wrong long before that.

 

 

By escape route, I just mean a way that the object of Sherlock's biting analysis could have some sort of way out of the conversation.  For example, not that I think she would have done it, but if the gang had gotten together in their local pub, Molly's attire may not have seemed so out of place, and she could have played it off like she was going to meet him later, not like this was actually what she thought was appropriate to wear to a friend's house (unless you were trying to get that friend to notice you).

 

Regardless, I agree.  That was a horrible, scathing diatribe.  I think it had to be, because we had to see Sherlock not just cross the line of social propriety but vault over it into the territory of cruelty, then pull himself back and realize what he was doing.  Molly makes the perfect target, because she is so defenseless. Yes, indeed, the scene started out wrong and just kept getting more wrong until Sherlock sees his name and realizes what he's doing. It makes me cringe every time, but I think it's supposed to.

 

Sherlock continues this self-analysis later in the morgue, where he asks Mycroft what is wrong with them when he sees a family mourning a death on Christmas. I think at that point that Sherlock wants to have that release: he's seen "Irene" dead and believes that she is, in that moment.  He wants to have that emotional outlet and not just have scorn for others, but he's not quite sure how.

 

I think that was our first "Redbeard sighting," if you like.  Mycroft thinks this is a danger night perhaps because he's seen Sherlock suppress emotion with drugs before, and he sees Sherlock becoming emotional again. Mycroft, IMO, is just as damaged by Victor's death as Sherlock is, only he is damaged by having seen emotion drive his little brother nearly crazy, and he has concluded (probably erroneously, probably as a child) that the only way to keep that from happening is to discourage emotion.

[SanaB]

@ Gerry: If you take this as a benchmark nobody would be friend with Sherlock. Not John, not Lestrade, not Mrs. Hudson...nobody. Sherlock has always been rude, even to people he's close to. John already had a thousand reasons to break up the friendship. Sherlock has already offended everyone of them. Molly is not an exception. He does not threat her worse than others.

[gerry]

Regardless, I agree. That was a horrible, scathing diatribe. I think it had to be, because we had to see Sherlock not just cross the line of social propriety but vault over it into the territory of cruelty, then pull himself back and realize what he was doing.

Why do you think we had to see that? What is the plot purpose? To me it seemed cruel just for the sake of being cruel.

[Boton]

I disagree, gerry.  I think it was important that we see just how bad Sherlock can really get.  It was important (to me, anyway) that he take someone in his inner circle, someone as vulnerable as Molly, and just eviscerate them verbally in a way that was so bad that, once the other shoe dropped for him (him seeing his name on the package), even he knew that he'd crossed a line.  He couldn't make a step toward understanding that his actions could be very hurtful to others without a dramatic demonstration of just how hurt someone he cared about could be, and it had to be juxtaposed with his own internal worry and frustration over the Irene thing to set us up for finding "Irene's" body and Sherlock more or less admitting that he'd like to be able to show emotion.  The whole thing is difficult to watch, but I think it would lose a lot of impact any other way.

[gerry]

@ Gerry: If you take this as a benchmark nobody would be friend with Sherlock. Not John, not Lestrade, not Mrs. Hudson...nobody. Sherlock has always been rude, even to people he's close to. John already had a thousand reasons to break up the friendship. Sherlock has already offended everyone of them. Molly is not an exception. He does not threat her worse than others.

couldnt disagree more. Sherlock has never been cruel to John lestrade mrs h Irene his mom like he was to molly in that xmas scene. Not even close. The worst he's said to mrs h was shut up. Rude yes, cruel or equivalent of talking to her like she was dressed like a whore? No. He's definitely hurt John before but not through cruelty. One may argue that lying to and using Janine was cruel and to that I could agree, even if it wasn't a direct verbal attack.

[Artemis]

Not even close. The worst he's said to mrs h was shut up. Rude yes, cruel or equivalent of talking to her like she was dressed like a whore? No.

There was the scene at the beginning of THoB where he upset Mrs. Hudson by deducing that she had been to see Mr. Chatterjee and that Chatterjee had a wife. He commented on her dress and racy perfume, and made a snide remark about her "being at the scratch cards again".

 

I don't think it was as gut-wrenching as the Molly scene, but it's not entirely dissimilar.

[gerry]

 

Not even close. The worst he's said to mrs h was shut up. Rude yes, cruel or equivalent of talking to her like she was dressed like a whore? No.

There was the scene at the beginning of THoB where he upset Mrs. Hudson by deducing that she had been to see Mr. Chatterjee and that Chatterjee had a wife. He commented on her dress and racy perfume, and made a snide remark about her "being at the scratch cards again".

 

I don't think it was as gut-wrenching as the Molly scene, but it's not entirely dissimilar.

i have no recollection of that scene but I will look at the transcript when I have time later today.

[Arcadia]

I'm perplexed by your description of Sherlock's language as being like talking to a whore. Now, I've never talked to a whore, or heard one being talked to, that I know of. But when I read of talking to someone "like she's a whore" or "like she was dressed like a whore", I would assume that means one is implying that that person is paid to have sex. I don't see anything in Sherlock's diatribe that implies he thinks that of Molly. 

 

SHERLOCK: I see you’ve got a new boyfriend, Molly, and you’re serious about him.

 

MOLLY: Sorry, what?

 

SHERLOCK: In fact, you’re seeing him this very night and giving him a gift.

 

JOHN (quietly, exasperated): Take a day off.

 

LESTRADE (taking a glass across to the table and putting it down near Sherlock): Shut up and have a drink.

 

SHERLOCK: Oh, come on. Surely you’ve all seen the present at the top of the bag – perfectly wrapped with a bow. All the others are slapdash at best.

(He stands up and walks towards Molly, looking at the other presents which aren’t so carefully wrapped.)

 

SHERLOCK: It’s for someone special, then.

(He picks up the well-wrapped present.)

 

SHERLOCK: The shade of red echoes her lipstick – either an unconscious association or one that she’s deliberately trying to encourage. Either way, Miss Hooper has lurrrve on her mind. The fact that she’s serious about him is clear from the fact she’s giving him a gift at all.

(John looks anxiously at Molly as she squirms in front of Sherlock.)

 

SHERLOCK: That would suggest long-term hopes, however forlorn; and that she’s seeing him tonight is evident from her make-up and what she’s wearing.

(Smiling smugly across to John and Jeanette, he starts to turn over the gift tag attached to the present.)

 

SHERLOCK: Obviously trying to compensate for the size of her mouth and breasts ...

(He trails off as he looks down at the writing on the tag

What I see is a boy-dressed-as-a-man who's making fun of a woman he regards as all girly and romantic and silly; because it makes him feel superior, or he thinks it makes him look clever, or maybe just because he feels like being mean. But nowhere in there do I get any sense that he thinks she's a whore. On the contrary, he's specifically making fun of her "serious" intent and "long-term hopes" ... that's somewhat the opposite of whoring!

 

If you're put off by his reference to her breasts ... oi, trust me, I've heard a lot worse, some of it directed my way. But not once did I assume it meant that the speaker was implying I was a whore. Just that they were rude idiots, like Sherlock is being in this scene. At least he kept it clean, which is more than I can say for a lot of men when they're talking about women.

 

I love this scene. It's squirm inducing, but Molly comes out the moral victor, and I like that. And Sherlock is shown to be enough of a man to be ashamed of his little performance, which I also like. It's a sign that he's capable of growing.

[bedelia1984]

I don't see the 'dressed like a whore' side of how Sherlock speaks to Molly either.

 

What is so brilliant about this scene is that Sherlock thinks he's exposing Molly's behaviour, but really he's exposing his own failings and vulnerabilities.

 

It has a fair bit in common with the "I love you" scene- in that in both cases, we're being actively shown something we already know- which is Molly's attraction to him- but what is really interesting/ revealing is everything other than that. In Scandal, Sherlock seems totally oblivious to the fact that everyone else already knows everything he's pointing out but also has one up on him in having the decency and class not to spout on about how Molly is dressed etc.

 

He's describing something so basic and common about human behaviour- dressing up to impress someone you like- as if it is some kind of phenomenal state secret that he's uncovered. Everyone else in the room has a greater understanding of this than he does, and the moment when he realised that he's missed the fact he's Molly's focus is perhaps the moment he also starts to realise how much else he's been missing.

 

I also think this scene is more about his general distrust of what he sees as the calculating kinds of artifice that women use to seduce men- I think there's a hint of that also in the are you wearing lipstick/ you weren't wearing lipstick before scene... To most people, that's just life, but Sherlock seems to see a woman attempting to attract a mate as some kind of criminal enterprise that ought to be exposed for what it is as a warning to all around. To me, that says more interesting things about his own psyche (and possibly that of whoever wrote these scenes), than anything else. Also, John has mentioned from time to time, and it is so true that Sherlock himself is no stranger to dressing to attract attention- arguably more so than any other character on the show. Talk about double standards. I don't think anyone buys that he wears shirts that tight for budgetary reasons.

 

Again, they play this up with Irene, that by wearing nothing she's giving nothing away- so the opposite being that when a woman does dress a certain way she's giving her 'game' away so to speak. Honestly, I think the whole idea is mostly nonsense, and at least a little chauvinistic, but it doesn't mean I couldn't believe Sherlock and his special boys only treehouse at Baker Street mentality buying into some of it. 

 

I think the best part of this scene is how humbling it is for Sherlock- he realises how poor his behaviour is, but he also realises how much he doesn't know about the people around him, especially women. I think that part of what motivates him to apologise so sincerely to Molly is that she's helped him to learn something important about himself- and we see that aspect to her character's importance to him again later on.

[gerry]

The entire deduction was describing her as dressed deliberately to encourage a reaction based on her physical appearance and the tone in which it was said spoke to that implication. The quotes below are specifically about her implied intentions based on how she was dressed. Lurrrrvve was said in a mocking tone while saying that she's deliberately encouraging an implied sexual reaction from someone capped off with describing the perceived size of her breasts in her dress. The latter point again was proving she wanted a sexual reaction from someone by making her breasts and mouth look bigger.

 

SHERLOCK: The shade of red echoes her lipstick – either an unconscious association or one that she’s deliberately trying to encourage. Either way, Miss Hooper has lurrrve on her mind. .....

 

SHERLOCK: Obviously trying to compensate for the size of her mouth and breasts ...

What I see is a boy-dressed-as-a-man who's making fun of a woman he regards as all girly and romantic and silly; because it makes him feel superior, or he thinks it makes him look clever, or maybe just because he feels like being mean.

If you just chalk that up to immaturity and it's no big deal to you, that's fine. I don't agree. Given how it makes multiple people cringe when watching the scene, I don't think it was that innocuous.

 

I love this scene. It's squirm inducing, but Molly comes out the moral victor, and I like that. And Sherlock is shown to be enough of a man to be ashamed of his little performance, which I also like. It's a sign that he's capable of growing.

Is he an immature boy or a man? Did he apologize because he didn't mean what he said or because Molly started to cry or both?

[Arcadia]

This is in response to Bedelia's post ... I've said often that I think Sherlock is a bit, oh, immature, I guess, when it comes to women ... he acts like he thinks they're kind of silly and goopy and they just want to play with dolls instead of leaping around London having fun. I think he grows out of it eventually, though.

 

 

[gerry]

There was the scene at the beginning of THoB where he upset Mrs. Hudson by deducing that she had been to see Mr. Chatterjee and that Chatterjee had a wife. He commented on her dress and racy perfume, and made a snide remark about her "being at the scratch cards again".

 

I don't think it was as gut-wrenching as the Molly scene, but it's not entirely dissimilar.

I had no recollection of this scene whatsoever (apparently I was bored by HOB from the very beginning, lol) but yes it is sort of like the xmas scene in the sense it's implying something about Mrs. Hudson based on her perfume and new dress, but the only thing Sherlock deduced about that was that she must have just seen him. It's definitely not as extreme/excessive as the xmas scene. I did not get any implied sexual inferences from the exchange but I'm not sure what he meant by where the prize scratch cards would lead. She's clearly upset by the revelation that Mr Chatterjee has a wife she didn't know about as noted by her subsequent exchange with Mr. Chatterjee. Sounds like quite a womanizer. Either way, Sherlock was rather insensitive about the reveal. Is this another example of the types of moments that you all enjoy Sherlock behaving?

 

SHERLOCK: You’ve been to see Mr Chatterjee again.

MRS HUDSON: Pardon?

SHERLOCK (pointing with the harpoon’s tip): Sandwich shop. That’s a new dress, but there’s flour on the sleeve. You wouldn’t dress like that for baking.

JOHN: Sherlock ...

SHERLOCK: Thumbnail: tiny traces of foil. Been at the scratch cards again. We all know where that leads, don’t we?

(He sniffs deeply as he finally stops aiming the harpoon at her.)

SHERLOCK: Mmm: ‘Kasbah Nights.’ Pretty racy for first thing on a Monday morning, wouldn’t you agree? I’ve written a little blog on the identification of perfumes. It’s on the website – you should look it up.

MRS HUDSON (exasperated): Please.

SHERLOCK: I wouldn’t pin your hopes on that cruise with Mr Chatterjee. He’s got a wife in Doncaster (he adopts a south Yorkshire accent to say the town’s name) that nobody knows about.

JOHN (angrily): Sherlock!

SHERLOCK: Well, nobody except me.

MRS HUDSON (upset): I don’t know what you’re talking about, I really don’t.

(She storms out of the flat, slamming the living room door closed as she goes. Sherlock leaps over the back of his chair from behind it, then perches on the seat, wrapping his arms around his knees like a petulant child. John slams his newspaper down.)

JOHN: What the bloody hell was all that about?

SHERLOCK (rocking back and forth): You don’t understand.

JOHN (sternly): Go after her and apologise.

SHERLOCK (staring at him): Apologise?

....

Later, John carries two large bags out onto the street, shuts the front door and walks over to Sherlock who is holding a taxi door open. Next door in Speedy’s, Mrs Hudson is shouting angrily at an unseen Mr Chatterjee.

MRS HUDSON: ... cruise together. You had no intention of taking me on it ...

(She throws something at the closed door. As it bounces heavily off the glass, John recoils.)

JOHN: Oh! Looks like Mrs Hudson finally got to the wife in Doncaster.

SHERLOCK: Mmm. Wait ’til she finds out about the one in Islamabad.

(John sniggers and gets into the taxi. Sherlock follows him in.)

SHERLOCK (to the driver): Paddington Station, please.

 

http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/28352.html

[gerry]

I think the best part of this scene is how humbling it is for Sherlock- he realises how poor his behaviour is, but he also realises how much he doesn't know about the people around him, especially women.

What do you think he learned about not knowing women from that scene and how did you perceive it? Just from saying forgive me?

[Arcadia]

The entire deduction was describing her as dressed deliberately to encourage a reaction based on her physical appearance and the tone in which it was said spoke to that implication. The quotes below are specifically about her implied intentions based on how she was dressed. Lurrrrvve was said in a mocking tone while saying that she's deliberately encouraging an implied sexual reaction from someone capped off with describing the perceived size of her breasts in her dress. The latter point again was proving she wanted a sexual reaction from someone by making her breasts and mouth look bigger.

None of which equates to him treating her like a whore, or saying she dresses like a whore. Unless you are saying that he thinks a woman trying to make to make herself attractive to a man automatically makes her a whore, which I don't think you are.

 

 

What I see is a boy-dressed-as-a-man who's making fun of a woman he regards as all girly and romantic and silly; because it makes him feel superior, or he thinks it makes him look clever, or maybe just because he feels like being mean.

If you just chalk that up to immaturity and it's no big deal to you, that's fine. I don't agree. Given how it makes multiple people cringe when watching the scene, I don't think it was that innocuous.

 

"Innocuous" is not a word I would use to describe it, no. It's a painful scene for everyone involved.

 

 

I love this scene. It's squirm inducing, but Molly comes out the moral victor, and I like that. And Sherlock is shown to be enough of a man to be ashamed of his little performance, which I also like. It's a sign that he's capable of growing.

Is he an immature boy or a man?

 

Sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes both at once, or neither. Sometimes he's not even human, according to John. ;) I find it hard to pin even "ordinary" people down, let alone someone as quirky as Sherlock. It's a nice bit of characterization.

 

Did he apologize because he didn't mean what he said or because Molly started to cry or both?

Neither, I would say. As I read the scene, he apologized because he suddenly realized what an ass he was being, and regretted it.

[SanaB]

I think he was shocked by himself. Because he didn't exspected the present was for him. And because of the fact that he hurt her just by not having his own emotions under control. He was blind and is not used to it.

[SanaB]

People tend to think that Sherlock just suppresses the love emotion but he supresses a lot of more emotions that came with the pain past then. Shame, hate, anger, sadness...He can't deal with all these emotions that's why he is so vulnerable when someone triggers them. And Molly is good at it.

[Artemis]

I think he was shocked by himself. Because he didn't exspected the present was for him. And because of the fact that he hurt her just by not having his own emotions under control. He was blind and is not used to it.

 

^ Precisely!

 

 

[gerry]

 

The entire deduction was describing her as dressed deliberately to encourage a reaction based on her physical appearance and the tone in which it was said spoke to that implication. The quotes below are specifically about her implied intentions based on how she was dressed. Lurrrrvve was said in a mocking tone while saying that she's deliberately encouraging an implied sexual reaction from someone capped off with describing the perceived size of her breasts in her dress. The latter point again was proving she wanted a sexual reaction from someone by making her breasts and mouth look bigger.

None of which equates to him treating her like a whore, or saying she dresses like a whore. Unless you are saying that he thinks a woman trying to make to make herself attractive to a man automatically makes her a whore, which I don't think you are.

Every time I've heard the phrase it's used by a man about a woman for the express purpose of judging the woman for how she was dressed or acting in regards to sexual contexts. It can range anywhere from implying the woman was easy/sleeping around, dressing provactively (maybe too trashy or too sexual) or possibly actually turning tricks. I've heard a man call his wife a whore when he found out she was cheating on him. He didn't mean she got paid for cheating. The common denominator in every circumstance is the man is judging the woman negatively based on how she's using her sexuality through how she's dressed or her sexual intentions/actions. That's what Sherlock did in the Xmas scene. He assessed her sexual intentions based on how she was dressed using a judgmental, disrespectful attitude.

 

"Innocuous" is not a word I would use to describe it, no. It's a painful scene for everyone involved.

 

Who was it painful for besides Molly?

[gerry]

People tend to think that Sherlock just suppresses the love emotion but he supresses a lot of more emotions that came with the pain past then. Shame, hate, anger, sadness...He can't deal with all these emotions that's why he is so vulnerable when someone triggers them. And Molly is good at it.

I'm not sure what Molly did in the xmas scene that could have triggered an emotion from Sherlock that would make verbally attacking her a logical or inevitable result from some unarticulated vulnerability.

 

I do wonder if there's anything Sherlock can do that would make people here not defend, mitigate or excuse his behavior.

[J.P.]

The way he closes the door just before John's nose in the next scene. I don't know why, but it makes me cringe more than anything I can think of right now.

[Arcadia]

People tend to think that Sherlock just suppresses the love emotion but he supresses a lot of more emotions that came with the pain past then. Shame, hate, anger, sadness...He can't deal with all these emotions that's why he is so vulnerable when someone triggers them. And Molly is good at it.

 

That's a good point ... he likes (liked?) to put up a good front. Although as Mrs. H pointed out in TLD, he's not above expressing his negative emotions, quite volatilely. Frustration, especially, he's good at showing.

 

 

 

The entire deduction was describing her as dressed deliberately to encourage a reaction based on her physical appearance and the tone in which it was said spoke to that implication. The quotes below are specifically about her implied intentions based on how she was dressed. Lurrrrvve was said in a mocking tone while saying that she's deliberately encouraging an implied sexual reaction from someone capped off with describing the perceived size of her breasts in her dress. The latter point again was proving she wanted a sexual reaction from someone by making her breasts and mouth look bigger.

None of which equates to him treating her like a whore, or saying she dresses like a whore. Unless you are saying that he thinks a woman trying to make to make herself attractive to a man automatically makes her a whore, which I don't think you are.

 

Every time I've heard the phrase it's used by a man about a woman for the express purpose of judging the woman for how she was dressed or acting in regards to sexual contexts. It can range anywhere from implying the woman was easy/sleeping around, dressing provactively (maybe too trashy or too sexual) or possibly actually turning tricks. I've heard a man call his wife a whore when he found out she was cheating on him. He didn't mean she got paid for cheating. The common denominator in every circumstance is the man is judging the woman negatively based on how she's using her sexuality through how she's dressed or her sexual intentions/actions. That's what Sherlock did in the Xmas scene. He assessed her sexual intentions based on how she was dressed using a judgmental, disrespectful attitude.

 

Yes, he did. But he didn't call her a whore, or say she was "easy", or even say she was looking for sex. That's your interpretation of what he meant. I respectfully disagree with that interpretation.

 

 

"Innocuous" is not a word I would use to describe it, no. It's a painful scene for everyone involved.

Who was it painful for besides Molly?

 

 

Everyone in the room, including the audience. There were cutaway shots showing how uncomfortable the other characters were, and several people have, in this thread, described the scene as cringe-worthy, or something like that.

 

 

People tend to think that Sherlock just suppresses the love emotion but he supresses a lot of more emotions that came with the pain past then. Shame, hate, anger, sadness...He can't deal with all these emotions that's why he is so vulnerable when someone triggers them. And Molly is good at it.

I'm not sure what Molly did in the xmas scene that could have triggered an emotion from Sherlock that would make verbally attacking her a logical or inevitable result from some unarticulated vulnerability.

 

I do wonder if there's anything Sherlock can do that would make people here not defend, mitigate or excuse his behavior.

 

 

There is a difference between trying to understand what makes a character tick, and defending/etc. his behavior. From what I've read, most of the "people here" are attempting to do the former.

[Van Buren Supernova]

There is a difference between trying to understand what makes a character tick, and defending/etc. his behavior. From what I've read, most of the "people here" are attempting to do the former.

Y-yup-P.