Molly Hooper

[Boton]

Well, he was under considerable stress at the time. He was at a party. There were people.

 

And it was Christmas and you're supposed to be all merry and stuff.  That's enough to push anyone over the edge. 

[Arcadia]

I agree, though, that it seems crueler, because it's Molly. As someone said, it's like stomping on a butterfly, or killing a mockingbird, or other analogy of your choice. Plus she's someone they all know, and probably like, which makes it even more humiliating for everyone. And finally, it's the person she has the crush on that is the one ripping her to bits.

 

All of which Sherlock is unconscious of until he reads the note. At which point he realizes what an ass he's being, and apologizes. Which indicates to me he wasn't purposely being cruel; just showing off. Something he didn't learn to stop doing until T6T (if then ... we don't actually know yet, do we?)

[Boton]

 

 

All of which Sherlock is unconscious of until he reads the note. At which point he realizes what an ass he's being, and apologizes. Which indicates to me he wasn't purposely being cruel; just showing off. 

 

I am possibly just stirring the pot with this thought, but it occurs to me that maybe Sherlock was, in his own way, having fun.  Everyone else was enjoying themselves: John had a date over, Mrs. Hudson was basking in the attention from her boys, Greg was having a drink, everyone was asking Sherlock to play the violin, and maybe he kind of let loose and started enjoying himself.  We all know that he liked to deduce; maybe he never thought about how it would feel to be on the other end of that, to be dissected and called out that way; he just thought he was having fun and doing what he enjoyed just like everyone else.

[Arcadia]

You know, I almost said something like that, and to some extent I think he was enjoying himself; but at someone else's expense, which is why he's such a git at that moment. Nor do I think he did it for anyone's entertainment but his own, unlike the violin playing.

[Boton]

Yeah, I think *we* can see that he was doing it at Molly's expense, but *he* can't see it until he sees his name on the package and the penny finally drops for him.  Like he might have been reasoning that people's nonverbal clues are out there for everyone else to see anyway, so he was just doing his thing he enjoys since Molly (and anyone else he deduced) were just putting out the information anyway.  And suddenly he realized that some nonverbal cues are meant to be kept private.

[gerry]

Well, he was under considerable stress at the time. He was at a party. There were people.

What makes you think that being at a party was stressful for him? Over the course of 4 series I can't remember him being stressed by being around people. We've seen him at a wedding, with clients, in front the press, with friends or homeless people and at Buckingham Palace and I can't recall him being stressed by being with people. Usually it's the opposite, loving being the center of attention.

[gerry]

Yeah, I think *we* can see that he was doing it at Molly's expense, but *he* can't see it until he sees his name on the package and the penny finally drops for him.

The fact that he can't see he was being an asshole before seeing his name is a bit unbelievable isn't it? I doubt Mrs. Holmes raised him to talk to people that way so I find it hard to believe he didn't know what he was doing. He just didn't care but that's not the same as being clueless or ignorant.

[Artemis]

What makes you think that being at a party was stressful for him? Over the course of 4 series I can't remember him being stressed by being around people. We've seen him at a wedding, with clients, in front the press, with friends or homeless people and at Buckingham Palace and I can't recall him being stressed by being with people. Usually it's the opposite, loving being the center of attention.

 

Oh I disagree, I definitely thought he was stressed at the wedding, and in front of the press too.  I don't have time to list the signs at the moment, but as I saw it they were definitely there.  Clients and homeless network are different because he's not usually around too many at a time and that's work, not a social function where the expectation is to be sociable and put on that front.

 

 

[bedelia1984]

 

Well, he was under considerable stress at the time. He was at a party. There were people.

What makes you think that being at a party was stressful for him? Over the course of 4 series I can't remember him being stressed by being around people. We've seen him at a wedding, with clients, in front the press, with friends or homeless people and at Buckingham Palace and I can't recall him being stressed by being with people. Usually it's the opposite, loving being the center of attention.

 

 

I think one huge red flag that Sherlock was going to find the wedding awful were his in-advance pleas to Mycroft for him to come to the after party with him. I thought it was a significant show of vulnerability for Sherlock, my heart really went out to him when I realised how much he was dreading it- and all the other nervous behaviours like the napkin folding (which Mary, in my opinion, interpreted correctly, as another sign of the dread).

 

I can't remember the exact context of a quote about not wanting to go because there will be 'people'- but that sums up his feelings about these sorts of gatherings for me. 

[Artemis]

You might be thinking of "Many Happy Returns".

 

Sherlock: "Of course I'm gonna miss dinner, there'll be people."

[bedelia1984]

You might be thinking of "Many Happy Returns".

 

Sherlock: "Of course I'm gonna miss dinner, there'll be people."

 

 

That's it exactly, thank you!

[gerry]

I can't speak about Many Happy Returns. Never saw it but was that line in context like Mycroft's regarding goldfish? Because Mycroft's feelings about goldfish was about condescension, not fear or anxiety.

 

Regarding weddings, I dread them too because I find them quite dull. I get out of going to them as often as possible.

 

Regardless, I saw Sherlock at the wedding and he seeemed to be enjoying himself. I saw no signs of stress or anxiety. Even his best man speech segued nicely to being able to show off his detective skills in front of all the guests. He quite enjoyed flirting with Janine and teaching her how to dance. He enjoyed performing his violin solo as well. It wasn't until the very end that he felt out of place because everyone was paired off but that's still not the same as stress.

 

If Sherlock can enjoy himself at a wedding with hundreds of guests, I can't believe he couldn't enjoy himself at a xmas party of like 6 people or that xmas party could stress him out to the point of verbally attacking someone. He was certainly able to get through the wedding without incident.

 

I think the taxi ride to the courthouse in TRF perfectly sums up Sherlock's attitude. John was all fretting about Sherlock in court, giving him advice in how not to piss people off and Sherlock being as nonplussed as ever said I'm just going to be myself. That's exactly how he behaves. He is just himself without concern to the effect on those around him. And if he gets thrown in jail for contempt, so be it because they're idiots.

[Boton]

 

Yeah, I think *we* can see that he was doing it at Molly's expense, but *he* can't see it until he sees his name on the package and the penny finally drops for him.

The fact that he can't see he was being an asshole before seeing his name is a bit unbelievable isn't it? I doubt Mrs. Holmes raised him to talk to people that way so I find it hard to believe he didn't know what he was doing. He just didn't care but that's not the same as being clueless or ignorant.

 

 

Actually, I disagree that he necessarily knew he was being an a$$.  To your first point, just because you are raised with manners doesn't mean they "take."  Mycroft is the one who likes using manners as the "social oil" to facilitate interactions with others; Sherlock does not.

 

Also, remember that John in HoB referred to him as autistic.  Now, I don't actually think that Sherlock is on the ASD spectrum, nor do I think that people who are on it are necessarily (or even often) rude.  However, I think the person who lives with him on a daily basis was using that as a crude shorthand that Sherlock just doesn't pick up on social cues like most other people do, so I can completely believe he didn't know what he was doing with Molly. 

 

That doesn't mean he is wholly innocent her, but I have a hard time seeing actual malice in his actions.

[bedelia1984]

It struck me during this conversation that Sherlock's fixation on the relationships of others and his attempts to deconstruct them is the other side of that coin that has him leaving the wedding early in the Sign of Three. He is often picking at people for their closeness to people (who are not him), and yet it clearly in some way hurts him to think of himself as being alone or not somebody's first priority ('What life, I've been way...' etc).

 

It reminds me to a small extent of Eurus, whose longing for connection was a catalyst for so much harm. Of course, compared to her methods, Sherlock's seem more innocuous. 

 

There is a lot of push and pull in all of the Holmes sibling relationships- Mycroft too shows affection (towards Sherlock in any event) in counter-intuitive ways- spying and death missions, etc. in place of (god forbid) just talking about how you feel. I suppose it is a product of growing up in a house with such profound and closely guarded secrets?

[J.P.]

I also can put on a social persona for a reason/occasion. I don't behave the same at all social gatherings. I don't feel the same either. The difference IMO is that at the Christmas Party he was cornered on his own territory, and there was no escape from the situation. And it's the cringe-worthy Christmas! I for my part, could break down crying in the middle of the Christmas dinner. It's the emotional attitude that counts.

At the wedding, Sherlock was in charge. He was on a mission and, at least theoretically, controlling the situation. And he could just disappear into some temporary bolthole in the times he wasn't needed. I bet after he came home he slept for two days in one piece.

[Boton]

I agree, bedelia.  I'm a little hesitant to use S4 to inform what I think of things that happened in S1 and S2 (mostly because I don't think Moftiss planned ahead that well).  However, it's not hard to imagine that both Sherlock and Mycroft could have been impacted by the Eurus/Victor events. Anyone could develop a very love-hate outlook on interpersonal relationships.  Sherlock keeps most people at arm's length by being socially prickly, while Mycroft does so by being so unfailingly polite and proper that no one can break the shell.

[bedelia1984]

They definitely hadn't got a detailed plan, but I do like that Mycroft and Sherlock are arguing about who upset Mummy from day one. There is a nice symetry to that, when you look at TFP as a finale (hopefully not a forever finale though).

 

To me, it is like they both realised they would please their mother by not saying how they felt, and then when you look at their relationships, which each other, and the hints of romance we have seen with both of them- it seems like it is all about restraint (arguably quite literally in Irene's case!). It probably helps the revisionism that it would be seen as an upper-class british trait anyway, but these brothers are really taking it to the extreme.

 

 

I also can put on a social persona for a reason/occasion. I don't behave the same at all social gatherings. I don't feel the same either. The difference IMO is that at the Christmas Party he was cornered on his own territory, and there was no escape from the situation. And it's the cringe-worthy Christmas! I for my part, could break down crying in the middle of the Christmas dinner. It's the emotional attitude that counts.

At the wedding, Sherlock was in charge. He was on a mission and, at least theoretically, controlling the situation. And he could just disappear into some temporary bolthole in the times he wasn't needed. I bet after he came home he slept for two days in one piece.

 

Yes, and, I also feel like you couldn't say for sure that Sherlock either enjoyed or hated the wedding experience.

 

On the plus side, he got to show off his detective skills, he got to flirt with Janine, and he got to stand up as John's best man/friend in front of everyone- and these are all things that mattered and made him feel good.

 

On the downside- John was getting married, it was the end of an era, and that's really hard because Sherlock has so few other friends, in spite of being happy for John, then the news of the baby takes John even further away, and also his flirtation with Janine ultimately seemed shallow when he was alone at the end of the night- perhaps even more alone because he's entertained the idea of dancing (or whatever) with her.

 

I think at the wedding Sherlock looked at the situation like a battle and went into it in that mindset, and he enjoyed it to the extent that it was a struggle to be overcome, but once the worst of the fight was over, all that was left was a hollow where the life he had before and that friendship with John when they were flat-mates and almost inseparable was (so it seemed then) gone forever.

[T.o.b.y]

I also can put on a social persona for a reason/occasion. I don't behave the same at all social gatherings. I don't feel the same either. The difference IMO is that at the Christmas Party he was cornered on his own territory, and there was no escape from the situation. And it's the cringe-worthy Christmas! I for my part, could break down crying in the middle of the Christmas dinner. It's the emotional attitude that counts.

At the wedding, Sherlock was in charge. He was on a mission and, at least theoretically, controlling the situation. And he could just disappear into some temporary bolthole in the times he wasn't needed. I bet after he came home he slept for two days in one piece.

That makes a lot of sense to me. And I can relate too, although a big wedding would stress me personally out way more than a little Christmas celebration with family and friends. But then, unlike Sherlock, I have little trouble with emotion; I am just shy...

[gerry]

That doesn't mean he is wholly innocent her, but I have a hard time seeing actual malice in his actions.

It's not about malice. In this context, I'm talking about whether you can really think Sherlock is truly clueless about how he was behaving in the xmas scene before he saw his name. To believe that you would have to believe he doesn't know what is considered good manners or generally considered socially acceptable behavior. Doesn't take a genius to know you don't talk to people like he talked to Molly under normal standards. Do you really think Sherlock doesn't know whether he is behaving with good manners or not or what those standards are? I think he definitely knows. How could he not? He's almost 40 years old and he knows enough about human behavior to manipulate people and deduce people based on minutiae that 99.9% of people wouldn't recognize. And he uses good manners when it suits him, like with Mary, Irene, Janine, his parents, etc. And he knew the house mistress would have to breathe in a bag based on his behavior.

 

Anyway, I just don't think he's ignorant to his behavior.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I can't speak about Many Happy Returns. Never saw it....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwntNANJCOE

 

 

I think the taxi ride to the courthouse in TRF perfectly sums up Sherlock's attitude. John was all fretting about Sherlock in court, giving him advice in how not to piss people off and Sherlock being as nonplussed as ever....

 

Odd, he doesn't strike me as nonplussed in the least in that scene.  On the contrary, he seems perfectly at ease.

 

[gerry]

Doesn't nonplussed mean perfectly at ease? I've always used it that way. Let me look it up.... Apparently it's used differently in America vs England. Learn something new everyday.

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nonplussed

[kimber8ada]

I've always used it as meaning unsure or off-balance.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Doesn't nonplussed mean perfectly at ease? I've always used it that way. Let me look it up.... Apparently it's used differently in America vs England. Learn something new everyday.

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nonplussed

 

The "surprised or confused" meaning applies to both countries, and that's how I've always heard/seen it used.  But apparently some Americans are starting to use it to mean the opposite (which, that link goes on to say, "is not considered part of standard English").

 

I may need to add this to my list of words to avoid, lest I be misunderstood by one group or the other.

[gerry]

I didn't even know it could mean surprised or not surprised. I've always seen it used as unbothered or unaffected. I didn't know one word could be used so differently by different people and how that happens. Though I'm not sure it's a word that's commonly used.

[Carol the Dabbler]

No, not very common around here, anyhow.  So a lot of people presumably have no idea what it means, which makes it easier for new meanings to spring up.  If you hear it from older people or encounter it in older novels, it'll always mean something like bewildered, and I suspect that most of the people who do use it (on either side of the Atlantic) still use it with that meaning.  According to several websites, it comes from the Latin phrase "non plus" meaning "no more" -- that is, the person is so taken aback that s/he is at a loss for words and has "no more" to say.