Molly Hooper

[gerry]

I agree though Molly is sensitive. Given how upset she was by the Jim being gay deduction, which was rather mild relative to the xmas scene deduction and which had nothing to with Sherlock, I have hard time believing she wouldn't have been hurt enough to say something to Sherlock regardless of who she was dressed up for given how disrespectfully he talked to her.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I just had a thought ... would anyone agree that when these scathing deductions occur, we are mostly laughing at Sherlock, not with him? And it's funny because it's unexpected and audacious, and because of how the victims react (Lestrade's resigned sigh in ASiB cracks me up) ... not because of what he says. Now that I think about it some more, I remember when I first started watching the show, I was surprised how often they made fun of Sherlock's personality ... and that was part of the charm, to me. They acknowledge he's a git and skewer him with it. At the same time, we're allowed to admire his genuine brilliance, so that he remains a likeable character. Pretty deft bit of characterization, that. Oh goody, I just reminded myself why I fell in love with the show in the first place!

 

Now I find myself hoping he's not too human after TFP ... might take all the pleasure out of poking fun at him.

Ah yes, to me he is a very refreshing character, wouldn't find him interesting if he is just regular sensitive properly mannered detective. Boring.

 

And yes, he is still a likeable character. There is no way the series continues to survive if main character is insufferable. Well, of course not for everyone standard, but enough.

 

I enjoy him even when he is a rude annoying d*ck (maybe mostly because of that ) and I don't feel bad for it at all.

 

Would I feel okay if it's a real life character? Maybe yes, maybe no. I had done some of the things he did myself.

Is it okay? Maybe yes maybe no. To me, the answer is never definite.

How would you feel if those things are done to you? If I don't like it, nobody forces me to befriend/interact more with him. Honestly, I think he makes better friend than most of mine. I can understand why many don't think so though. But I'd cherish him as friend, definitely. Among his 'annoying' traits, he'd make a very good precious friend, imo. And I can handle couple of insults, I'd treat it as reality check, because he doesn't make things up. He mostly just say accurate things most people don't want to hear.

But why can't he try to be more sensitive? Why should he? It may or may not make him a better person, depends on what is better. We can ask anyone same question but (insert any particular words), why can't anyone try to be closer to what we want them to be/think they should be? Because they are not and they may not share the same idea of what is good for them.

 

But he is rude! And it's not okay. Common sense. Social manners. Etiquettes. Concept of good friend. Good person. That. Those.

To me rude can be a lot of things. I think lying at someone just for the sake of not being rude is rude. I think fake smiles and compliments can be dangerous and insulting. I think backstabbing can be very toxic and disturbing.

I'm not saying the opposite of Sherlock are all those, but to me, rude and insensitive are the 'defects' that are lower in my list in term of undesirable traits. Everyone has different list so yah, again, Sherlock's bad qualities in other's eyes don't bother me and what is high my list may not bother you too.

 

Do I wish he treat his friends better? Yes, some times. Other times I just laugh at them, that is just Sherlock being Sherlock to me. Nobody chooses to befriend Sherlock because he is warm and cuddly. Nobody chooses to befriend carebear likeness to get honest-in-your-face opinions.

 

I like him not because he is perfect, or because he could so he should be perfect.

I like him because of his imperfections going through journeys full of flaws and mistakes, that may or may not seem acceptable or desirable to everyone. He may become what everyone want, he may try to be closer, successfully or not, or remains the same.

 

You know, just like every single one of us.

[Van Buren Supernova]

To me, the Christmas scene, Molly actually did something very annoying to Sherlock.

 

MOLLY: And John. I hear you’re off to your sister’s, is that right?

JOHN: Yeah.

MOLLY: Sherlock was complaining.

(Sherlock raises his eyebrows indignantly. Molly corrects herself.)

MOLLY: ... saying.

(Nearby, Lestrade has been running Sherlock’s comment through his mind, and his face slowly becomes a picture of exasperation when he seems to realise that it’s probably true.)

JOHN: First time ever, she’s cleaned up her act. She’s off the booze.

SHERLOCK: Nope.

JOHN: Shut up, Sherlock.

SHERLOCK: I see you’ve got a new boyfriend, Molly, and you’re serious about him.

Ariane deVere's

 

I suppose the party is John's idea.

As said, Sherlock is receptive with John, Mrs.Hudson, Lestrade most probably had visited him so often for cases that his presence was not that unfamiliar, and as said, John probably briefed him about his girlfriend.

I have scenario in my head that Molly was still in outer circle of Sherlock at that time, then strike one, he realized that John invited her too, which is one of #thingsthatannoyintroverts.

 

Then Molly started to comment on anyone (I understand this, she probably nervous and try to be friendly) but then she mentioned that Sherlock was complaining about John going away.

 

I think Sherlock would rather wear antler and dance for Anderson than hearing someone spills that, something that indicates that he was not happy being left by John or something along this line. He probably mentioned this in the passing to Molly and Molly read that. And this #notinnercircleperson just made that declaration, something I'm sure it's true but just like Sherlock's target, truth is unpleasant. It probably means nothing to others, but it must be damn annoying for Sherlock. And imho, him attacking Molly after that was some sort of revenge to expose her too, without knowing the nature of her present.

 

Nobody needs to agree with me, that is my take.

 

Anyway, what was John thinking?

Mycroft warned him about Christmas dinner with Sherlock, although he didn't specify any details.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Good point about Molly spilling the beans.

[Doe]

Welcome SanaB.

 

Molly Hooper is brave girl. She always show him herself emotions.

 

I never don't feel sorry to she's love for him. This's choose by emotions.

 

(I know English little bit. I hope I made myself clear.)

[Carol the Dabbler]

Perfectly clear, Doe.

[SanaB]

Hi Doe,

 

perfect, thank you! It's never weak to show you're in love. But it's weak to not be able to do so.

[gerry]

And this #notinnercircleperson just made that declaration, something I'm sure it's true but just like Sherlock's target, truth is unpleasant. It probably means nothing to others, but it must be damn annoying for Sherlock. And imho, him attacking Molly after that was some sort of revenge to expose her too, without knowing the nature of her present.

I can't wrap my mind around this intepretation. The man that deduces people without any regard to their feelings over and over again is so sensitive that he feels the need to attack someone for revealing that he complained about something? You'd think that if you're going to dish out insensitive deductions all the time, you'd be able to accept rather innocuous comments in return. Otherwise, that's quite a double standard. Like that saying if you're going to dish it out, you better be able to take it.

 

Not sure I believe that's the case though. If Sherlock thought complaining about that was revealing something really personal and Molly isn't part of his inner circle, why would he say it to Molly or around her? I doubt he thought much of saying it at all.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've seen at least one case where somebody made a fairly public declaration of something, saying nothing about considering it personal or private, then blew up when somebody else made use of it (and let me clarify, they were not using it against the original person).  So yeah, it's believable.  People don't necessarily see what they do and what other people do in the same way.

 

I'm sure you've known a lot of people who could dish it out but couldn't take it -- that's the classic bully syndrome.  NOT saying that Sherlock is a bully, of course, just that dishing it out and taking it are two different things, and may not occur in the same person in equal measures.

[Artemis]

Watching TAB again... Interesting how hostile Sherlock's relationship with Hooper is.  They seem to despise each other.

 

 

[J.P.]

Everyone is so hostile in TAB. Poor Sherlock, he thinks everybody hates him, even his friends. :P

[kimber8ada]

Maybe Sherlock feels some sort of attraction to her but thinking she is a man is confused and upset about it. So he is hostile toward her to cover his feelings.

[Artemis]

What about her hostility towards him?  I thought that was the more curious aspect.

 

Edit: I suppose being slapped by Molly in HLV might have contributed, lol.  Still though... he should know she still likes him.

 

 

[Boton]

What about her hostility towards him?  I thought that was the more curious aspect.

 

I thought that part was easy to understand (or, I misunderstood it, which is always likely). I figured after the slapping scene in HLV, Sherlock has walked around thinking Molly hates him, and this was a projection of it, both in her "Hooper" male persona and in her female persona at the secret ceremony.

 

I think the secret ceremony part, however, was a bit of a mess, because all of a sudden it became almost meta-commentary on Victorian suffragism or "feminism," if you like, and I'm not sure if I think that was all going on in Sherlock's head as he contemplated a case.  Although maybe so.  Maybe he's just walking around thinking every single woman in his life hates him in some way. 

[T.o.b.y]

 

What about her hostility towards him?  I thought that was the more curious aspect.

 

I thought that part was easy to understand (or, I misunderstood it, which is always likely). I figured after the slapping scene in HLV, Sherlock has walked around thinking Molly hates him, and this was a projection of it, both in her "Hooper" male persona and in her female persona at the secret ceremony.

 

I think the secret ceremony part, however, was a bit of a mess, because all of a sudden it became almost meta-commentary on Victorian suffragism or "feminism," if you like, and I'm not sure if I think that was all going on in Sherlock's head as he contemplated a case.  Although maybe so.  Maybe he's just walking around thinking every single woman in his life hates him in some way. 

 

 

:lol: If he did, maybe he wasn't even wrong... At least it would be a perfectly reasonable deduction considering how he has treated them...

 

I doubt he ever thought Molly hated him though. He knows she loves him. But he also knows that (like John...) she is often so exasperated by his behavior that her affection manifests as aggression.

 

Love is always more or less F***ed up on this show. "I hit you / yell at you / *insert other form of abuse* because I care" is a recurring theme. And you might well complain that this isn't problematiczed enough but I would argue that it also isn't glorified and if you look to Sherlock for relationship advice and role models, you're definitely looking in the wrong place.

[Boton]

 

 

Love is always more or less f***ed up on this show. "I hit you / yell at you / *insert other form of abuse* because I care" is a recurring theme. And you might well complain that this isn't problematiczed enough but I would argue that it also isn't glorified and if you look to Sherlock for relationship advice and role models, you're definitely looking in the wrong place.

 

 

A reasonably good test for one's relationship health is to ask oneself, "does my relationship look anything like anything ever portrayed on Sherlock?"   :D 

[Carol the Dabbler]

A reasonably good test for one's relationship health is to ask oneself, "does my relationship look anything like anything ever portrayed on Sherlock?"

 

True.

 

And yet -- they do stick together (minus few time-outs).  They're not like some people who have one little spat and decide that's it and split up.  Sherlock can put John through literal grief for two years, and John can kick the crap out of Sherlock, but in the end they're still best friends.  (Same with the others, though on a smaller scale.)  Ya gotta give 'em credit for that!

[SanaB]

The feminism thing is a great topic in TAB. John said to Mollys male version that it must be hart to do the job of a man (something like that). He recognized her as a woman. Also interesting was Sherlock s reaction when they went to the morgue. He didn't want to meet the 'male' Molly, she stressed him with her aggressive behaviour. But finally at the secret ceremony he really started to 'see' her. He recognized her as a woman that he hadn't done before and he understood why she acted like that all of the time. And again, Sherlock, the man who recognizes and analyses everything, wasn't able to analyse her (before). ;)

[Boton]

The feminism thing is a great topic in TAB. John said to Mollys male version that it must be hart to do the job of a man (something like that). He recognized her as a woman. Also interesting was Sherlock s reaction when they went to the morgue. He didn't want to meet the 'male' Molly, she stressed him with her aggressive behaviour. But finally at the secret ceremony he really started to 'see' her. He recognized her as a woman that he hadn't done before and he understood why she acted like that all of the time. And again, Sherlock, the man who recognizes and analyses everything, wasn't able to analyse her (before). ;)

 

Yes, to all of this.  I thought it was fascinating that John knew right away that Hooper was female (well, of course he did!), but Sherlock seemed to be berating himself for pigeonholing Molly as "one of the boys."  

 

It's an interesting echo of the Christmas party and morgue scenes in SiB that we've discussed so much lately. Sherlock almost has to be forcibly reminded (by seeing his own name on a Christmas present) that Molly is a woman and might have feelings about someone (specifically Sherlock), and he apologizes. But once they go to the morgue to identify "Irene," Molly is back in androgynous clothing, and Sherlock is back to normal such that poor Molly had to ask Mycroft why Sherlock could identify "Irene" from "not her face." (I wonder if Mycroft even knew how that came about.)

 

Anyway, it's interesting that Irene is not in the secret society line-up in TAB; her picture is in his watch. At that point, she's "The Woman," the only one he recognizes consistently as female.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... it's interesting that Irene is not in the secret society line-up in TAB; her picture is in his watch. At that point, she's "The Woman," the only one he recognizes consistently as female.

Maybe Lara Pulver wasn't available?

[Boton]

 

... it's interesting that Irene is not in the secret society line-up in TAB; her picture is in his watch. At that point, she's "The Woman," the only one he recognizes consistently as female.

Maybe Lara Pulver wasn't available?

Way to be all practical and take the romance out of it, Carol. :-)

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Van Buren Supernova]

Bahahhahaha...

There you go Carol, single-handedly kills Boton's story. :D :D

 

 

P.S. I want to see how Sherlock imagine Molly and Irene in the same room though. The woman from 'not her face', especially because I'm sure Irene would caress that cheekbone in front of everyone.

[SanaB]

But this is an interesting point. I tink this ceremony moment was special 'cause Molly was the only one who stepped out of the growd and stood face to face with Sherlock. That also represents situations in the other episodes (Belgravia or 'the one who counted most' scene). He really starts to see her as a woman then. The other person he recognized that way fully was Irene.

 

It didn't wonder me that Irene wasn't part of the ceremony. I remember the original books...she only appeared in 'Scandal in Böhmen'. Watson wrote about it that Sherlock was fascinated about her and that he had a pic of her in his watch. For him she was 'the woman' 'cause she was for him a true repesentative of her sex. But also he admired her that much it had nothing to do with love. Other features just made a love story out of it but it never was one of that kind.

[gerry]

I'm sure you've known a lot of people who could dish it out but couldn't take it -- that's the classic bully syndrome. NOT saying that Sherlock is a bully, of course, just that dishing it out and taking it are two different things, and may not occur in the same person in equal measures.

I think sherlock has acted like a bully lots of times. He's mean to a lot of "innocents" or weaker personalities. Like that house mistress in TRF.

 

My inability to believe that interpretation is that Sherlock has not been shown as easily offended throughout the 4 series. It's actually something I respect about the character. John, Mycroft and Lestrade have all taken shots at Sherlock and he has never been shown as so easily offended to attack them in response. But I'm supposed to believe that saying he complained about something is enough to push him over the edge? Is every other deduction Sherlock does also out of hurt feelings? I don't think so. His motivation for deductions is far more likely arrogance. The only difference in the Xmas scene was his level of cruelty.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, he was under considerable stress at the time. He was at a party. There were people.