Moffat's "we've missed it" statement...

[Inge l-w]

Oh, great, so the shadowy teddy bear moderator is lax on rules ( thanks for that, by the way), and the waterfowl one uses her computer while sleepwalking or something! In the meantime, we kids can get up to all sorts of mischief! Where is Caya to restore order in this universe when you need her?

[jadpdr]

That is why you should read the Captain's Logs for each series: the two definitions are explained in ST:TNG. In a way, Carol is right that the extremists were always Trekkies, but not necessarily into costumes and such!

[Boton]

So, we've missed the obvious clues about S4 of Sherlock, but they are embedded in Star Trek?   :lol:

[clavery111]

...only for those who know how to read them.....

[T.o.b.y]

John. I still haven't decided if we're supposed to think he still has some repressed anger against Sherlock after the fall, or not. Or how much he does/doesn't know about why Sherlock did it, or if it matters.

 

I think John is full of repressed anger anyway. At Sherlock, at Mary, at himself, at his sister, at the war he was a part of, at all the injustice and wrongness in the world. The way Martin Freeman plays him, he is like a sturdy little pot of suppressed anger ready to boil over at any minute. And I don't know if Sherlock realizes this, but he's the perfect friend for a person like that, because he's always doing something infuriating and you can yell at him all you like, even punch him in the face, without him getting really mad at you.

 

In fact, this readiness on Sherlock's part to just roll with the punches makes him quite lovable in my eyes. It could be a bit sad, too... But then, he doesn't seem to suffer from any lack of self-respect. I get the impression that he really honestly isn't too bothered by it. He likes people with spunk, and if some of that spunk lands on his physique in the shape of a fist or a bullet - oh well. At least the other person isn't boring.

 

Mostly, I think Moftiss are pulling our chains.  They very wisely realize that the way to extend the entertainment value of a show that only has 10 episodes spanning 900 minutes (15 hours) is to get people to watch them over and over and over looking for layer after layer and building suspense.  I don't fault them for that;

 

Neither do I. I just don't pay much attention to such statements any more because we never found out what the "obvious clue everyone has missed" was for The Reichenbach Fall, did we? And everything that was part of the official solution had been guessed at by some fan or the other long ago, if maybe not in that exact order and all by the same person.

 

They certainly don't need to tell me to go obsess further over Sherlock. But it's fine to try and keep people's interest up in general. And all the speculation is half the fun of the show anyway.

 

But why chide John in the mind palace rather than himself? And is there a layer there that indicates that not only is Sherlock worried that he has failed to "identify" Mary (in several ways), but that John is not being the husband that Sherlock thinks he should be? And why is that even an issue?

 

I think it was pretty obvious in series 3 (and Carol, please don't get mad at me for saying this, it's only my humble opinion, remember :lol:) that John is indeed far from an ideal husband for Mary. First he doesn't see her for what she is and then he doesn't appreciate it, even though as Sherlock points out chances are more than good that he (subconsciously) chose her for the very things he has willfully ignored.

 

There's this huge discrepancy between what John thinks he wants, should want, wants to want, and what he actually wants. The way I see him, he wishes he could be normal. Ordinary. A nice GP with a nice practice and a good proper wife who is a good nurturing nurse and their little house in the suburbs and flowers and a kid or two and maybe a dog. But in fact, his job is dead boring to him, his patients' petty concerns don't interest him in the least, his wife is an assassin on the run from all kinds of dangerous people and a better shot than him and he's actually most himself, most alive and in tune with his personality when he's chasing criminals with Sherlock or spraining an armed junkie's wrist in a drug den.

 

If I were Mary, I would probably leave him. A husband who doesn't even want to know my real name? Who only wants me as the nice little wife he bargained for, ignores my real personality, my past, my problems, dangers, everything that I am? No thank you. But Mary herself seems very willing to start over and settle for being Mrs Watson and / or she's simply desperate for love on any terms, so it's probably all good and a mutually beneficial arrangement. But Sherlock is too clever to be blind as to what is going on between them and he actually knows a lot more about human nature than he admits.

 

So, that still doesn't tell me a darn thing about the trajectory of S4.  Now, I can come up with theories all day: my favorite one right now is the idea that Mary is "the other one" and that Sherlock is so protective over John and Mary's marriage because it is his best friend and his half-sister, and he is working through some sort of issues about not quickly identifying his own half-sister and not doing a good job protecting her.  But that doesn't indicate anything real, and we don't know if the "obvious" clues are going anywhere specific until the season airs.

 

Oh god, please no. I agree that aside from Moriarty, Mary is the obvious candidate for "the other one", but that doesn't mean I like it one bit. Ugh. It's as bad the Moriarty twins - worse, in fact. Like that old Victorian trope of if you can't have him because you're a guy too, marry his sister. Remember Steerforth in David Copperfield? "You don't happen to have a sister, Daisy?" (Daisy, for those who have never read the book, being the thoughtful and totally appropriate nickname he gave his good friend David, the title character and narrator of the story.)

 

It would be so... cheesy, for want of a better word. But it's far from improbable. Certainly not impossible.

[Pseudonym]

Excellent assessment :D

You make a great point about John as a husband - I'd really like to see that addressed, that despite how much he would like to be the perfect husband he's not really cut out for it. Maybe it'll come up next series, fingers crossed, he definitely seems to be more interested in Sherlock than Mary in the trailer. The comment you mentioned in TAB gives me hope. 

[T.o.b.y]

Excellent assessment :D

You make a great point about John as a husband - I'd really like to see that addressed, that despite how much he would like to be the perfect husband he's not really cut out for it. Maybe it'll come up next series, fingers crossed, he definitely seems to be more interested in Sherlock than Mary in the trailer. The comment you mentioned in TAB gives me hope. 

 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think John is very interested in Mary. They just don't focus on that so very much, because that's not the focus of the show, which is about Sherlock.

 

I also don't think much of what I was rambling on about will get addressed, nor that it's necessarily what the creators had in mind. It's just my way of taking my impression of the characters and their behaviors and running with it.

 

Ironically, Mary and John could be a really good couple in my opinion, but in a different way than John thinks he wants them to be.

 

I think it's sweet somehow the way Sherlock seems invested in and concerned for their relationship. A bit like a little kid who is terrified his parents will get divorced.

[Pseudonym]

I agree he's interested, but the whole thing of wanting to pretend she's still a nice, normal nurse now that he knows the truth just isn't sustainable in my opinion. You can't just ignore something that huge. Yea, if he accepted that they could work as a couple because they are both badasses it would work, but I don't think he's willing to admit to himself that he could want that, he's rather play pretend. As Sherlock points out, he likely chose her because she isn't normal, and that if she was she would bore the life out of him. 

I still think the fallout of Mary shooting Sherlock needs to be addressed, though it doesn't look like it will be. She's just got away with it like it's no big deal. I don't think it's forgivable and it annoys me that John (and Sherlock) seem to think it is. 

 

[Boton]

I agree he's interested, but the whole thing of wanting to pretend she's still a nice, normal nurse now that he knows the truth just isn't sustainable in my opinion. You can't just ignore something that huge. Yea, if he accepted that they could work as a couple because they are both badasses it would work, but I don't think he's willing to admit to himself that he could want that, he's rather play pretend. As Sherlock points out, he likely chose her because she isn't normal, and that if she was she would bore the life out of him. 

I still think the fallout of Mary shooting Sherlock needs to be addressed, though it doesn't look like it will be. She's just got away with it like it's no big deal. I don't think it's forgivable and it annoys me that John (and Sherlock) seem to think it is. 

 

I think John and Mary could have a nice, solid -- if really unorthodox -- marriage. I think they really do love each other, and, now that all of the little secrets of Mary's past and John's need for excitement are out in the open, they can build what they both apparently independently thought they wanted: a marriage that looks perfectly normal on the outside but inside contains a couple of (near) sociopaths.  As long as they both admit that the house in the suburbs and the doctor/nurse respectable jobs and the lame-looking baby carrier are all props for the front they project to the world, I think they could have a perfectly lovely life that only they know about.  

 

And, time for my unpopular opinion of the day (before I scuttle off for the weekend):  I honestly don't think there's any more fallout about Mary shooting Sherlock to be had, because neither of the key participants is particularly fussed about it any more.  Sherlock gets the logic, Mary gets the logic, it happened, it's over.  And I'm more than happy to accept that.

 

What I have always thought that John was mad about was not that Mary shot Sherlock but that Mary hid her past as an intelligence agent and assassin.  I think he was angry that Mary had a dual life right under his nose, when he thought he had a woman who would drag him, by virtue of her own normalcy, into the normal-looking life he wanted the world to see.  But the whole "problems of your past/future" speech indicate that he's willing to put it all behind them, if not actually forget it.  To me, it is the lie that's the problem, not the shooting Sherlock.  And, I would argue, a very similar trajectory of anger-cold silence-conditional reconciliation would have transpired had Mary shot CAM, and that shooting just come to light later.  I think John is angry about the lie, not the target of the shooting.

 

(OK, only throw soft things! I bruise easily!)

[T.o.b.y]

 

I still think the fallout of Mary shooting Sherlock needs to be addressed, though it doesn't look like it will be. She's just got away with it like it's no big deal. I don't think it's forgivable and it annoys me that John (and Sherlock) seem to think it is. 

 

I don't expect that will be addressed either and I doubt it's a big deal for either the characters or the people who write them. I completely understand why you and many fans think this is wrong, and I respect that. To me personally, I have to admit it's not such a big deal either. It would be if these were real people living in the real world, but inside the Sherlockverse, which feels very real to me in its own way but is still different, the rules are different and it is okay with me that they are different. See also: killing Magnussen.

 

I am much less mad at Mary for shooting Sherlock than I am for talking to and about him in an infuriatingly condescending manner. And I don't dislike her for being a professional killer half as much as for being a cocky all-too-perfect badass who steals the limelight and outshines Sherlock in intelligence and John in combat. She's worse than Mycroft that way! :P

 

At the same time I feel sorry for her. I don't see any good reason for her to put up with the "just be Mrs Watson" charade other than either being starved for affection and / or madly in love with John and pathetically ready to be with him on any terms or a deep hatred of her own self, past and true identity that makes her want to deny it herself.

 

I do hope so, so much that series 4 will shed some light on her background and that something will be made of her having enemies living. John may not want to know about her past, but I do! And I am not above maliciously hoping that John's willful ignorance will come to bite him in the ass when the people he didn't want to know about knock on his door and intend to take revenge on his family. Not that I want anything bad to happen to any of the Watsons, really. They are a tough bunch and I am sure they could take care of a lot, plus they have Sherlock to swoop in and give a hand. Maybe Mary will finally take him seriously when he helps save her daughter... And maybe John will learn to appreciate his wife's skills for a similar reason.

[T.o.b.y]

I think John and Mary could have a nice, solid -- if really unorthodox -- marriage. I think they really do love each other, and, now that all of the little secrets of Mary's past and John's need for excitement are out in the open, they can build what they both apparently independently thought they wanted: a marriage that looks perfectly normal on the outside but inside contains a couple of (near) sociopaths.  As long as they both admit that the house in the suburbs and the doctor/nurse respectable jobs and the lame-looking baby carrier are all props for the front they project to the world, I think they could have a perfectly lovely life that only they know about.  

 

Yeah, but that would require them both to be comfortable with who they truly are. And we know John isn't, and we have good reason to suspect Mary isn't either. Basically, it would require the solution of John's major inner conflict (at least the way I see his character), and then his story would be... well, kind of over. Considering that I want nothing more than a good, satisfactory end to the series, this wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. John and Mary become Mr and Mrs Smith and Sherlock lives happily ever after on the mountain top in glorious solitude, watching over them and over London as a crossover between Batman and an old-fashioned guardian angel in the fierce "fire and sword" kind of way that angels are said to have had before Renaissance artists turned them into overweight children.

 

And, time for my unpopular opinion of the day (before I scuttle off for the weekend):  I honestly don't think there's any more fallout about Mary shooting Sherlock to be had, because neither of the key participants is particularly fussed about it any more.  Sherlock gets the logic, Mary gets the logic, it happened, it's over.  And I'm more than happy to accept that.

 

What I have always thought that John was mad about was not that Mary shot Sherlock but that Mary hid her past as an intelligence agent and assassin.  I think he was angry that Mary had a dual life right under his nose, when he thought he had a woman who would drag him, by virtue of her own normalcy, into the normal-looking life he wanted the world to see.  But the whole "problems of your past/future" speech indicate that he's willing to put it all behind them, if not actually forget it.  To me, it is the lie that's the problem, not the shooting Sherlock.  And, I would argue, a very similar trajectory of anger-cold silence-conditional reconciliation would have transpired had Mary shot CAM, and that shooting just come to light later.  I think John is angry about the lie, not the target of the shooting.

 

Exactly. It goes like this, I think:

 

Fandom: "Oh my god she shot Sherlock! How dare she! We'll never forgive her!"

John: "Oh my god, she lied to me! How dare she! I'll never... Wait, she's pregnant with my child and by far the best girlfriend I ever had... oh what the heck, let's just forget about it."

 

[Pseudonym]

 

John and Mary become Mr and Mrs Smith and Sherlock lives happily ever after on the mountain top in glorious solitude, watching over them and over London as a crossover between Batman and an old-fashioned guardian angel in the fierce "fire and sword" kind of way that angels are said to have had before Renaissance artists turned them into overweight children.

 

Like so. 

 

[Boton]

 

 

Yeah, but that would require them both to be comfortable with who they truly are. And we know John isn't, and we have good reason to suspect Mary isn't either. Basically, it would require the solution of John's major inner conflict (at least the way I see his character), and then his story would be... well, kind of over. Considering that I want nothing more than a good, satisfactory end to the series, this wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. John and Mary become Mr and Mrs Smith and Sherlock lives happily ever after on the mountain top in glorious solitude

 

***

 

Exactly. It goes like this, I think:

 

Fandom: "Oh my god she shot Sherlock! How dare she! We'll never forgive her!"

John: "Oh my god, she lied to me! How dare she! I'll never... Wait, she's pregnant with my child and by far the best girlfriend I ever had... oh what the heck, let's just forget about it."

 

 

 

I'm not sure I see John with a tremendous amount of inner conflict, or at least not conflict that can't be resolved. But yeah, I'd watch the heck out of that particular resolution to the series.

 

And your rationale at the bottom is absolutely spot on.  

[T.o.b.y]

Like so. 

 

 

 

:D

 

Actually, Batman is Sherlock... the superhero version.

 

I'm not sure I see John with a tremendous amount of inner conflict, or at least not conflict that can't be resolved.

 

I doubt the writers do, either. In fact, I suspect they think the reconciliation scene at the Holmes' house is a real resolution and John and Mary are now just fine and dandy. This series is written by men, after all.

[Arcadia]

Oh, I definitely have to jump into this one! Wheee!

In no particular order:

1. I think there's a good chance that Sherlock actually likes Mary for her own self, and thinks she's worth saving, irregardless of whether John stays with her or not. As Toby pointed out, he doesn't seem to care much about what happens to his transport (although I'll bet if she'd managed to paralyze him for life he might have had another think on that) -- and as far as we know at this point, he doesn't seem to hold her trigger finger against her. It doesn't make sense to us goldfish, but the way it's been played out so far, it makes sense to Sherlock (and possibly Mycroft.)

2. I also agree with Toby that Sherlock seems to have plenty of self-respect ... but I also get the impression that's actually a cover for some rather low self-esteem. Of all the heart-wrenching moments in HLV, one of the ones that got to me most was Sherlock's "How do I have utility?" remark. Oh, Sherlock, how could you think that of yourself?

3. Is John full of repressed anger? Well, he's certainly represses it, but is he filled with it? Ordinarily, I mean. I don't recall feeling that way about him at all when watching S1 & S2; on the contrary, I found him remarkably tolerant of Sherlock, who is, after all, a bit of a handful.

In TEH and HLV he has good cause to be angry, imo, I can't really blame him for his reaction to all the deception from the two people closest to him. I do agree that his chastising of Sherlock in front of Sholto's room, and when they are on they're way to "rescue" Mary in TAB, seemed out of line, and I wonder if they're going somewhere with that? Or is that just the actor's choice, to show he's still a bit annoyed with his pal? I don't think we can say until we see how he behaves in S4. In fact, I feel like almost all the characters are on the cusp of some sort of change, for the better or the worse. Except Lestrade; I think Lestrade will always be an anchor point.

4. John may have thought he was looking for nice and normal, but that doesn't mean he still does. I mean, his character needs to go on a journey too, to remain interesting ... maybe this is part of his growth, to accept that he's NOT normal and it's quite all right to run around after Sherlock all day instead of stitching up boo boos. And I get the impression they intend for Mary to encourage him in that pursuit, not get in the way. On the contrary, they seem to be saying she will participate to some extent (not too much, though, I presume.)

5. I'm not sure John doesn't want to know Mary's past, so much as he is agreeing to try again with her on her terms, not his. That's incredibly generous of him, under the circumstances; I think most people would think, in that situation, that they were entitled to establish the rules for a change. But John has often been put forward as an example of how to act like a decent man. (And it's not uncommon for people to think that "decent" is the same as being a pushover, either. ) I have always thought that the "reconciliation scene" in HLV was him saying to her ... "I will, to the best of my ability, give you an honest chance to prove yourself worthy of the trust I have placed in you." He didn't say anything about forgiving her ... in fact, "I'm still pissed and it will come out sometimes" is just another way of saying "I haven't forgiven you," isn't it? It is to me, anyway.

While I'm at it ... I know a lot of people hold it against Mary that she never apologized for harming Sherlock. (Although, technically, she did; just before shooting him, which indeed is a "mixed message" :D ) I have a few thoughts on that ... I agree we never saw her apologize in words, but that doesn't mean she didn't, offscreen ... certainly she and Sherl seemed comfortable with each other at the airfield. And there are ways of saying "I'm sorry" through actions that are far more meaningful than using mere words. It wouldn't surprise me if we see something of that in the future ... we didn't have time to see anything like that in HLV, imo. Really, in many ways that episode was simply too short. They should have expanded it to two hours or something. But they hit all the emotional notes, so maybe not.

And finally, I thought her body language conveyed contrition. She huddled in on herself during the confrontation at 221B, made as little show as possible ... to my eyes, she thought she deserved whatever was coming, and expected worse than she got. Not exactly an apology, no, but I think she was, in a way, acknowledging that they had every right to judge her.

And I simply don't see the condescension Toby refers to. Probably because my inclination would be to treat Sherlock the same way she does. The more someone thinks they deserve nothing from me but respect, the less likely I am to give it to them. I'm quite a brat in that way. :P

 

Okay, you all have been posting like mad while I've been composing this, so I'll stop and see what you've added and if it means I'll have to eat my words now.
 

[Pseudonym]

And finally, I thought her body language conveyed contrition. She huddled in on herself during the confrontation at 221B, made as little show as possible ... to my eyes, she thought she deserved whatever was coming, and expected worse than she got. Not exactly an apology, no, but I think she was, in a way, acknowledging that they had every right to judge her.

 

 

I could accept she were sorry were it not for the fact she threatened him at the hospital and again in Leinster Gardens. I think she was just sorry that John found out and was acting the way she did to try to get him to see her in a better light. 

[Arcadia]

Okay, read them, I guess I didn't embarrass myself too badly.

Some more thoughts, though...
 

[John] is like a sturdy little pot of suppressed anger ready to boil over at any minute. And I don't know if Sherlock realizes this, but he's the perfect friend for a person like that, because he's always doing something infuriating and you can yell at him all you like, even punch him in the face, without him getting really mad at you.

Sherlock is, after all, quite an astute observer of human nature (except when he isn't, of course :P ). I think he knows the difference between physically letting off steam, as so many (men, especially) do; and being genuinely hurt and angry. He doesn't always agree the emotion is necessary, but I think he recognizes when it's serious and when it isn't. He mostly loses his temper with John when John refuses to "see sense," not because John himself is angry. I think. Oh dear, I may have to do a rewatch to be sure.....
 

He likes people with spunk, and if some of that spunk lands on his physique in the shape of a fist or a bullet - oh well. At least the other person isn't boring.

Spot on.
 

I agree he's interested, but the whole thing of wanting to pretend she's still a nice, normal nurse now that he knows the truth just isn't sustainable in my opinion. You can't just ignore something that huge. Yea, if he accepted that they could work as a couple because they are both badasses it would work, but I don't think he's willing to admit to himself that he could want that, he's rather play pretend. As Sherlock points out, he likely chose her because she isn't normal, and that if she was she would bore the life out of him. 
I still think the fallout of Mary shooting Sherlock needs to be addressed, though it doesn't look like it will be. She's just got away with it like it's no big deal. I don't think it's forgivable and it annoys me that John (and Sherlock) seem to think it is.

Well, Sherlock has a rather skewed moral compass to begin with, don't you think? And I don't think John does find it forgiveable, I think he's appalled. Which is why forgiveness, if indeed it has been or will be bestowed, will be solely by the grace of John, not because it's "deserved." That's sort of what forgiveness is, imo; a gift, not an entitlement.
 

And, time for my unpopular opinion of the day (before I scuttle off for the weekend):  I honestly don't think there's any more fallout about Mary shooting Sherlock to be had, because neither of the key participants is particularly fussed about it any more.  Sherlock gets the logic, Mary gets the logic, it happened, it's over.  And I'm more than happy to accept that.

I'm not happy to accept it (in my more realistic moments, I think it's utterly absurd! :P ) but I do accept it, at least for now, because that's the story that's being told. (So far.) These are supposed to be extraordinary people; so they make extraordinary decisions. I don't think I'm required to agree with them, just do my best to understand what I'm being told.

 

I think John is angry about the lie, not the target of the shooting.

Oh, I think he's plenty angry about the target too; Sherlock was an innocent bystander, basically. She may have thought he was a threat, but John knows better ... and I think he would have expected her judgement to be better. But I also think the lie hurts him more. As lies tend to do.
 

I'm not sure I see John with a tremendous amount of inner conflict, or at least not conflict that can't be resolved. But yeah, I'd watch the heck out of that particular resolution to the series.

Oh, you two are so quaint. You actually think Moftiss will resolve this series? Bwa hahaha haahaaahahahhaaaahhha...........
 

This series is written by men, after all.

You know, that actually does explain ... well, almost everything!!!!

[Arcadia]

 

And finally, I thought her body language conveyed contrition. She huddled in on herself during the confrontation at 221B, made as little show as possible ... to my eyes, she thought she deserved whatever was coming, and expected worse than she got. Not exactly an apology, no, but I think she was, in a way, acknowledging that they had every right to judge her.

 

 

I could accept she were sorry were it not for the fact she threatened him at the hospital and again in Leinster Gardens. I think she was just sorry that John found out and was acting the way she did to try to get him to see her in a better light. 

 

 

True, and I sometimes see it that way as well. But I also wonder if she wasn't just playing the role she thought she had to play with him; sort of grasping at straws, hoping it would work. I didn't get the feeling her heart was really in it; she could have been a lot more threatening than she was. But it's also true that she seems to have underestimated Sherlock from the start, so maybe the only thing she's really sorry about is that she didn't aim for his heart. :p

 

What makes me doubt her most is that idiotic "people like CAM deserve to die" remark. Ugh. I find that attitude intolerable. Maybe some people do deserve to die, but since when was Mary Morstan appointed the Decider of Our Fates? Ptui.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Arcadia -- I agree with your "Wheee!" post roughly 100%. Thanks for saving me all that typing!

[Arcadia]

Slacker. :p

[Boton]

 

 

his chastising of Sherlock in front of Sholto's room, and when they are on they're way to "rescue" Mary in TAB, seemed out of line

(This is Arcadia's quote; I'm just too lazy to edit the original quote properly.)

 

Well, to take the second example first, John's chastisement of Sherlock in TAB is actually Sherlock's chastisement of Sherlock, since it is in the mind palace.  So I took that scene to mean that Sherlock is worried that John disapproves of him, not that John actually does.  

 

More interestingly, however, is the first example.

I don't think John was at all out of line in front of Sholto's room.  I think Moftiss wanted a funny line ("the game is on; solve it!"), but the whole thing is buttressed by a lot of what we already know.  We know that Sherlock can freeze or panic when under stress.  He was stunned that Moriarty would actually kill the old woman (and several of her neighbors) even when Sherlock solved the puzzle, which kind of tells me that Sherlock believed there were rules of engagement that were being ignored.  Nonetheless, he was stunned by the death.  And, even though it was drug-induced, he had a panic attack in Dartmoor.  So John has seen him go off line at inopportune times.

 

At the same time, John is an army doctor.  He's not always there to be Sherlock's best friend; sometime, he drops into that mode where he takes command of a situation and acts to save a life.  (Sherlock even said, probably not 20 minutes before that in show time, "I will solve your murder but John Watson will save your life.")  We saw it happen when John saved the soldier in the shower (never can remember that guy's name); he dropped into doctor mode and was even calling Sherlock "nurse."  It wasn't just funny; in a crisis, John has a routine he follows that works for him, and it involves him taking charge and deputizing others around him to do their job.

 

So, that's exactly what happened.  They get to Sholto's door, John wants to do his job (saving a life) but Sherlock has to do his first, and he's panicking.  And, as someone who knows Sherlock well, John feels comfortable enough to say, "Come on, this is your thing. You love the drama, you love the pressure, now get it together and solve the murder so I can save the life."

[clavery111]

and I just have to say this (sorry, I know it is one more time....) BBC Sherlock is a murderer now.  An in cold-blood, taking law into his own hands, judge and jury way, murderer - and he did it in front of a LOT of other people (unlike John who murdered secretly and murdered someone who was himself a murderer).  I find this seriously troubling ....

[Arcadia]

Me too, but I'm willing to bet no one in the show will.

 

For some reason, though, I'll be content with it if Sherlock actually gets a pardon, rather than simply getting away with it. I don't know why exactly this makes a difference to me, but it does. Because it both acknowledges he was wrong, and acknowledges that his motive was to protect, not avenge? Maybe. Dunno. That stupid little niggly voice in my brain keeps telling me Moftiss likes the idea of Avenger Sherlock. (Me, though ... ugh.)

[Boton]

Me too, but I'm willing to bet no one in the show will.

 

For some reason, though, I'll be content with it if Sherlock actually gets a pardon, rather than simply getting away with it. I don't know why exactly this makes a difference to me, but it does. Because it both acknowledges he was wrong, and acknowledges that his motive was to protect, not avenge? Maybe. Dunno. That stupid little niggly voice in my brain keeps telling me Moftiss likes the idea of Avenger Sherlock. (Me, though ... ugh.)

 

Well, I know we've been around this discussion a couple of times.  (But hey!  Hiatus!)  But I think you've got an interesting facet of the debate here.

 

I think what Moftiss likes (and certainly what I like) is the idea of Sherlock being in the grey area of lawfulness, justice, and morality.  I think a society cannot legislate just and moral behavior completely; any society that tried to have a law in place for every contingency of justice and morality would be totalitarian, even if it thought it was acting in everyone's best interest.

 

What captivates me about both CAM and the original Milverton is that both villains were acting within the law, but they were ruining people's lives by behaving immorally and unjustly.  It seems right for Sherlock Holmes to come in and restore justice by cleaning up this grey area at the margins.  And, by pardoning him, there is an official acknowledgement that he performed a service for society that the government could not. It doesn't excuse the moral ramifications of the act, but it moves the action more from the realm of vigilante justice into an act undertaken for the greater good.  

[clavery111]

I still see it as Mofftiss choosing vigilante role for Sherlock Holmes,  rather than celebrating his reason, logic, brain power etc.  In other words, his smarts are not his super-power.  Mistake IMHO.  And puts the role in the comic book/superhero Marvel category. Shame.