John Watson

[Pseudonym]

I thought that too, that in a way Sherlock was more invested than John. I think he had in his head that John had to be with Mary to be happy and he was determined to make that happen. 

 

And yes, Sherlock's father is meant to have had an affair, I believe it was in one of the commentaries.

 

If John had to be lessened in order to make Mary a badass they should have done it differently. John is pretty BAMF on his own, if his wife was the same they could have been pretty awesome together were they written as actually working together. I don't mean working as in 'the work' but as in a balanced relationship. 

 

[Arcadia]

Actually, in the commentaries they indicated that the affair was one idea they could use. BC started to mention it as an idea they bandied about but didn't use, then asked if it was okay to mention it, and Mark said it's possible they could use it someday, so BC shut up. But everyone knew what he was talking about by then. :D I keep thinking that idea comes from Young Sherlock Holmes, doesn't it? Maybe not, I only saw that movie once and it was ages ago, but I'm somehow under the impression that's where "the affair as Sherlock's childhood trauma" idea came from. Or maybe it was The Seven Percent Solution. Those are the only two Holmes movies I remember seeing that created back story for the character.
 
I don't think John's "straying" had anything to do with his feelings about Mary. I think they were just showing that's the kind of man he is ... loyal but not faultless. Wanting what a lot of men want ... the option to roam free, as it were ... but decent enough to know he shouldn't. I think it's far more significant that he chose to end the relationship before it turned into anything, than it is that he was tempted. Everyone's tempted by something, it's how we respond to temptation that is the measure of our character. Imo.
 
I think Sherlock could afford to care more about the marriage working out ... he wasn't the one in it!  He didn't have to work through the hurt like John did. Maybe that's the Eurus side of him; he doesn't really understand why that situation was so painful for John; why John couldn't just "reason" his way out of it. Whether we accept his reasoning or not, Sherlock had already decided that Mary didn't need to be held accountable for what she'd done. But John did. I think it must have been horrible for him. But I also think he genuinely loved Mary and wanted to give her another chance, especially since her victim seemed to have completely forgiven her. Maybe also, John thought he needed to live up to Sherlock's example? In spite of his anger, he genuinely does admire the man, I think.
 
As much as we might not like it, I also think maybe we're meant to accept that John simply is neither as clever nor as skilled as either Mary or Sherlock. Nor as ruthless. He's got a different kind of strength, but he's not ... well, remarkable. He's ordinary, but in a "good man" sort of way, not a "boring clod" sort of way. Does that make sense? It's hard to put across what I'm trying to say, but I think maybe we're supposed to admire John for being able to step aside and let the more brilliant ones shine. For realizing that he'll always be a step behind, but that's okay because it puts him in a position to watch their backs. For not resenting the niche he fits into.

 

And it's also very possible that I've just put more thought into it than Moftiss ever did in the whole past seven years. :p

[bedelia1984]

 

I think Sherlock could afford to care more about the marriage working out ... he wasn't the one in it!  He didn't have to work through the hurt like John did. Maybe that's the Eurus side of him; he doesn't really understand why that situation was so painful for John; why John couldn't just "reason" his way out of it. Whether we accept his reasoning or not, Sherlock had already decided that Mary didn't need to be held accountable for what she'd done. But John did. I think it must have been horrible for him. But I also think he genuinely loved Mary and wanted to give her another chance, especially since her victim seemed to have completely forgiven her. Maybe also, John thought he needed to live up to Sherlock's example? In spite of his anger, he genuinely does admire the man, I think.

 

As much as we might not like it, I also think maybe we're meant to accept that John simply is neither as clever nor as skilled as either Mary or Sherlock. Nor as ruthless. He's got a different kind of strength, but he's not ... well, remarkable. He's ordinary, but in a "good man" sort of way, not a "boring clod" sort of way. Does that make sense? It's hard to put across what I'm trying to say, but I think maybe we're supposed to admire John for being able to step aside and let the more brilliant ones shine. For realizing that he'll always be a step behind, but that's okay because it puts him in a position to watch their backs. For not resenting the niche he fits into.

 

And it's also very possible that I've just put more thought into it than Moftiss ever did in the whole past seven years. :P

 

I think Sherlock also liked Mary being with John partly out of self interest- think of all the other girlfriends that couldn't stand Sherlock! Mary would have been the one to let John and Sherlock maintain their friendship, and their work too probably, where most women might either not understand or find Sherlock tiresome at the very least. So in a way he could see what John was giving up, by being best friends with him- which was a threat to their friendship too, if John had started to resent it. For a brief moment, there was the chance for everyone to be a winner. 

 

Part of my problem with John's reactions I think comes from the clunkiness of the narrative- Mary shooting Sherlock needs to make sense (which I'm still not sure it really does), Sherlock hiding it, Magnussen's blackmail and subsequent murder, there are a lot of logical acrobatics to get you to the stage where Mary and John reconcile. If I knew which parts it was right to get morally outraged at, maybe I would better understand John's reaction. I thought his main issue with Mary was her dishonesty?

 

I do see your point about what we are supposed to believe about John being the supportive but good man at the side of the brilliant man. I agree that is how they want to portray him, and for the most part it works well. I guess the problem I had was that I often expected him to get things more right than Sherlock did on an emotional level, and then when Sherlock started to be more forgiving and emotionally mature, it was hard to see what John was bringing to the situation. But I do see it in TFP. In a way, John was just a bit lost this season, and it's all understandable, given what his character goes through.

 

One thing I would have loved is one scene that was just John and his daughter. It's kind of weird we got a cute scene with Sherlock and none with John and his own child. That would have definitely helped me see where he was really coming from.

 

It really hit me more this season than others that the show is about Sherlock and they sometimes treat John a bit as collateral damage- his wife is dead, he's a single parent, but we only see the side of his life that affects his friendship with Sherlock.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think Mary shooting Sherlock makes perfect sense from Sherlock's point of view (not necessarily from mine, but that's not what counts here).

 

1. Mary is confronting Magnusson (don't suppose we'll ever know for sure what she intended to do).

 

2. Sherlock barges in.

 

3. Mary tells him to butt out.

 

4. Sherlock reaches for her gun.

 

5. Mary warns him again, one more step and I'll shoot.

 

6. Sherlock totally misreads her and goes all psychologically (and patronizingly) "understanding." "No you won't, Mrs. Watson," he says in his very best "soothing" voice. And takes one more step.

 

7. Some people are saying why did she shoot him, he was offering to help her. But she had no idea what kind of "help" he had in mind, and in another half-second, he'd be grabbing her gun and she'd be helpless. So, just as promised, she shoots him. Clearly not an ideal solution, but the only one she could come up with in that half-second.

 

8. Sherlock realizes (a bit too late) that it's not wise to call someone's bluff when she isn't bluffing.

[Arcadia]

 

...

 

I do see your point about what we are supposed to believe about John being the supportive but good man at the side of the brilliant man. I agree that is how they want to portray him, and for the most part it works well. I guess the problem I had was that I often expected him to get things more right than Sherlock did on an emotional level, and then when Sherlock started to be more forgiving and emotionally mature, it was hard to see what John was bringing to the situation. But I do see it in TFP. In a way, John was just a bit lost this season, and it's all understandable, given what his character goes through.

 

One thing I would have loved is one scene that was just John and his daughter. It's kind of weird we got a cute scene with Sherlock and none with John and his own child. That would have definitely helped me see where he was really coming from.

 

It really hit me more this season than others that the show is about Sherlock and they sometimes treat John a bit as collateral damage- his wife is dead, he's a single parent, but we only see the side of his life that affects his friendship with Sherlock.

 

Yeah, I think they finally get John right (again) in TFP. It's been awhile. But he had to go through an arc too, didn't he? I just think none of us expected him to go the other way from Sherlock, and become less sympathetic, rather than more. Looking back on it, though, I kind of like that he did, because it kept everything sort of off kilter. There was a feeling of leaving everything hanging after S3, not just plot-wise, but character-wise and relationship-wise. Seen from the other end (after the end of S4), I think that's pretty neat. I just think Moftiss could have tipped us off better that it was supposed to feel that way, and it wasn't just simply the show losing its way.

 

Of course, that's assuming you currently think the show didn't lose it's way. I loved S3, so I was never overly bothered by its different-ness, but I get better now why a lot of people felt put off by it. But I like it even more now, because in light of where they went with S4, S3 feels like an appropriate lead in. We never got a "proper" scene of John forgiving Sherlock, or them coming to an understanding ... because it didn't happen, until S4.

 

I still haven't forgiven Moftiss for making Sherlock an unrepentant murderer, though. :P But at least I finally have a decent reason, story-wise, why they did it ... he was potentially going down the path to becoming another Eurus, unable to understand or accept what was wrong about his action. I like to think that the "new" Sherlock wouldn't commit that act ... or at the very least, wouldn't treat it so frivolously afterwards.

 

Poor John ... even in his own thread, I can't help but turn the conversation back towards Sherlock ... :P

[Arcadia]

I think Mary shooting Sherlock makes perfect sense from Sherlock's point of view (not necessarily from mine, but that's not what counts here).

 

1. Mary is confronting Magnusson (don't suppose we'll ever know for sure what she intended to do).

 

2. Sherlock barges in.

 

3. Mary tells him to butt out.

 

4. Sherlock reaches for her gun.

 

5. Mary warns him again, one more step and I'll shoot.

 

6. Sherlock totally misreads her and goes all psychologically (and patronizingly) "understanding." "No you won't, Mrs. Watson," he says in his very best "soothing" voice. And takes one more step.

 

7. Some people are saying why did she shoot him, he was offering to help her. But she had no idea what kind of "help" he had in mind, and in another half-second, he'd be grabbing her gun and she'd be helpless. So, just as promised, she shoots him. Clearly not an ideal solution, but the only one she could come up with in that half-second.

 

8. Sherlock realizes (a bit too late) that it's not wise to call someone's bluff when she isn't bluffing.

 

And then he goes and makes a similar mistake with Vivian Norbury, with similar but more lastingly fatal results.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

And then he goes and makes a similar mistake with Vivian Norbury, with similar but more lastingly fatal results.

Quite true. Though he's not the one who pays for his mistake this time.

 

By the way, I totally get why John blames Sherlock. Did the genius get even one thing right in this entire episode (not that John did either)? But right at the top of the list, he pressured Mary to return to London, where he could keep her safe!

[bedelia1984]

 

And then he goes and makes a similar mistake with Vivian Norbury, with similar but more lastingly fatal results.

Quite true. Though he's not the one who pays for his mistake this time.

 

By the way, I totally get why John blames Sherlock. Did the genius get even one thing right in this entire episode (not that John did either)? But right at the top of the list, he pressured Mary to return to London, where he could keep her safe!

 

 

Seriously.

 

I mean, as you mentioned above, he has already seen the consequences of underestimating one woman (Mary) in HLV. And, now here he is in TST, underestimating both Mary and Vivian!

 

You just want to shake him and ask him did he not realise how the TAB Christmas special was all about his chronic underestimation of women having fatal consequences.? He even made a speech about it, in an underground lair in his mind palace, for pete's sake!

[Carol the Dabbler]

He probably inherited that particular bit of myopia from Conan Doyle's Holmes, who had (oddly enough!) a rather Victorian attitude toward "the fair sex." Now I'm trying to think of times when that attitude got him into trouble, and coming up empty. Irene Adler fooled him, of course, but he seemed pleased with that result.

 

Maybe ACD's Holmes' attitude caused him no major problems because it matched the world he lived in, whereas our Sherlock's difficulties come from having a bit of a Victorian attitude in a Twenty-first Century world.

[Carol the Dabbler]

He didn't merely underestimate Mrs. Norbury, though -- he very nearly got Mary killed by Ajay because a) he was so fixated on Moriarty that he failed to consider any other possibilities, and b} he underestimated Mary again because he was fixated on fulfilling his vow. She seemed far more capable of protecting Mary Watson than he was.

[bedelia1984]

Really, TST is the only 'case' where I had moments of wishing John and Sherlock would just keep their noses out of what was going on. I didn't really find it cute that Sherlock was able to circumnavigate all of Mary's efforts to get away. Was there ever a moment when it entered John and Sherlock's minds that maybe if Mary was the only one who knew what she was up against, she was the one who should make the call on how to handle it? She would never have left John and Rosamund without serious thought.

 

It works against Mary too that John and Sherlock decide to team up and do what they believe is 'for her own good'.

 

I suppose the reason was that Sherlock was sure he could keep her safe- but he must have known the odds were bad- Mycroft even reminds him of it at one point. For all we know, Norbury was the tip of the iceberg, and any number of other bits of unfinished business would haunt Mary all her life. To keep moving was the only thing that could really keep her safe.

 

We also never got a glimpse of what it was that Mary was so ashamed of that she couldn't tell John.

[Arcadia]

By the way, I totally get why John blames Sherlock. Did the genius get even one thing right in this entire episode (not that John did either)? But right at the top of the list, he pressured Mary to return to London, where he could keep her safe!

 

Really, TST is the only 'case' where I had moments of wishing John and Sherlock would just keep their noses out of what was going on. I didn't really find it cute that Sherlock was able to circumnavigate all of Mary's efforts to get away. Was there ever a moment when it entered John and Sherlock's minds that maybe if Mary was the only one who knew what she was up against, she was the one who should make the call on how to handle it? She would never have left John and Rosamund without serious thought.

 

It works against Mary too that John and Sherlock decide to team up and do what they believe is 'for her own good'.

 

I suppose the reason was that Sherlock was sure he could keep her safe- but he must have known the odds were bad- Mycroft even reminds him of it at one point. For all we know, Norbury was the tip of the iceberg, and any number of other bits of unfinished business would haunt Mary all her life. To keep moving was the only thing that could really keep her safe.

Just so.

 

There was something that struck me at the pool scene, when Ajay was warning the police to not try and apprehend him, and he said something like "I'm a professional, you're just the police." And Sherlock picks up on it: "I'm not the police either." And I remember thinking at the time that was terribly cocky of him; people like assassins simply play on a whole different level than a private detective, imo. Which is one of many, many reasons I don't want to see Sherlock Holmes acting like James Bond. Ugh, no, no, please.

 

But then he goes and makes the same mistake with Mary; he assumes he's on her level, and he ain't. He shouldn't even try to be. She's the professional, he's not. So yeah, that was never going to end well....

 

The nice thing is, I think that was one of the points Moftiss was trying to make. In other words, I don't think Moftiss were saying "hey, look at this mighty hero protecting the little woman", I think we were supposed to understand that Sherlock was butting in where he shouldn't. Just in case anyone here was projecting Sherlock's attitude onto the writers.

[Redbeard]

I watched A Study in Pink last night (beginning another round of re-watching the series) and it struck me how different John was.  He was so pleasant to Sherlock, smiled and had fun (even laughed together!).  They gave off more genuine camaraderie in that episode than they do NOW, all these years later.  It seems John is the reason for that because Sherlock was Sherlock and remained more true to his character...John became so grumpy and miserable.  Even my son said "hey is this is back before John hated Sherlock" lol.  Seems, weird.  I hope if there is a Season 5 they can get John and Sherlock's friendship back to an easy, bantering one and not all the angst, beatings, and estrangements.  

[Arcadia]

Did you feel like they were pretty close to that point in TFP, though?

[T.o.b.y]

I'm still very torn on how I feel about John since the beating. But I know I've already gone on about that, so leaving it aside for now, I'll mention something else that bugged me. When Mary and John tell Sherlock what they've decided to name the baby, John says Katherine, and then is completely steamrollered by Mary who says it's Rosamund. The "we've changed our mind" and John's "have we?" really bother me. It's like he doesn't even get a say in his own baby's name, that whatever Mary says goes. Not to mention her use of 'we' when John clearly has no idea it's changed. And he doesn't question it, doesn't say 'hang on, Rosamund? We never talked about that,' doesn't say they're still deciding. He has no idea Rosamund is Mary's real name until she reveals it later, so as far as he knows it's either a name plucked from the ether or it's a reference to something in her mysterious past that he's not allowed to know about. Her deciding the name and telling him the same time as telling Sherlock is an issue to me, it gives a glimpse into the mechanics of their relationship that is somewhat problematic.

 

This is going a bit more into stream of consciousness as I attempt to articulate my thoughts but here it goes... It's like when they got engaged, John didn't actually get to propose, Mary essentially accepted without being asked. Yes, of course she knew he was going to, that it had been interrupted etc etc, but surely you should wait for someone to actually ask a question of such importance before you go ahead and answer it - if I'm remembering right doesn't she just start referring to herself as his fiance? Yes, it's meant to be a cute move to demonstrate that Mary and John are so in sync she's perfect for him, but it doesn't change the fact she accepts a proposal that hasn't actually been given.

 

Previously John always came across as a strong and capable character, but Mary seems to do a fair bit of steamrollering him. Some of it is done under the guise of being cutesy, some of it not so much. I think that does some of the job of taking away John's autonomy and reducing him into the passive character mentioned earlier, who does a fair bit of standing around looking confused - I don't think it's deliberate on Moftiss' part, but I think in trying to make Mary a strong, spunky character it reduced John. When we see their married scenes he's fairly passive, disinterested to the point he'd prefer to text another woman... he's not involved or engaged with Mary or the baby. We are led to believe that he did genuinely forgive Mary for the lies and the shooting, but he looks like a man with the life sapped out of him, and more so than a typical new father with a baby keeping him up at night. I think I would have felt a lot better about Mary (though not forgiven her for the shooting) if we had seen more scenes of John and Mary where they had fun together, where there was some sign of genuine affection and love, where they enjoyed each other's company. It might be a case of a few too many things being left offscreen again, but where there were scenes between the two of them in T6T, surely injecting a bit more warmth and affection wouldn't have been too difficult... even something as minor as having them loosely hugging or spooning in bed when they're sleepily talking about Rosie being the devil, they're lying with a huge gap between them. John seems bored with the whole thing, his wife, his baby, the conversation, as evidenced by the way he grabs the phone as soon as he can looking for the thrill of doing something illicit, something that has an element of excitement and danger if he were to get caught.

 

I think seeing some affection between John and Mary in their scenes alone would be added a lot to the emotional impact of Mary's death. I was never going to be sad about that, was too glad to see her gone, but if we'd seen her being a wonderful caring wife to John, someone affectionate and loving I definitely would empathised more with John's devastation.

 

Okay, I have the feeling the second part of my post won't be agreed with so let the contention commence. ;)

I think the fact that their relationship was troubled and they had unresolved conflict and issues makes John's behavior after her death more believable. It's not just grief, it's guilt and confusion and anger and all kinds of emotional rot jumbled together and in my opinion, that's what makes him blame her death on Sherlock and eventually beat him up. It's also a possible explanation for my Mary almost literally haunts him.

[Arcadia]

That's my take too, I think John feels guilty and ashamed, and probably a whole host of other negative feelings he can barely identify. And when he breaks, he takes it out on Sherlock, because that's the one person who he can safely take it out on. And then he probably feels even worse.

[Carol the Dabbler]

But then he goes and makes the same mistake with Mary; he assumes he's on her level, and he ain't. He shouldn't even try to be. She's the professional, he's not. So yeah, that was never going to end well....

 

The nice thing is, I think that was one of the points Moftiss was trying to make. In other words, I don't think Moftiss were saying "hey, look at this mighty hero protecting the little woman", I think we were supposed to understand that Sherlock was butting in where he shouldn't. Just in case anyone here was projecting Sherlock's attitude onto the writers.

I think Moftiss made their intentions quite clear by having Sherlock ask Mrs. H. to just say "Norbury" next time he gets too big for his britches. Even Sherlock knew he'd screwed up big-time.

 

Did you feel like they were pretty close to that point in TFP, though?

Yes. I actually felt like the real John Watson was back even in T6T, then of course by the end of that one he was on the outs with Sherlock again. But they had all that worked out by TFP, I thought. I hope they carry forward with that camraderie in subsequent series, and I have the feeling that they were signaling precisely that intention via the epilog.

[Amber§]

I watched A Study in Pink last night (beginning another round of re-watching the series) and it struck me how different John was.  He was so pleasant to Sherlock, smiled and had fun (even laughed together!).  They gave off more genuine camaraderie in that episode than they do NOW, all these years later.  It seems John is the reason for that because Sherlock was Sherlock and remained more true to his character...John became so grumpy and miserable.  Even my son said "hey is this is back before John hated Sherlock" lol.  Seems, weird.  I hope if there is a Season 5 they can get John and Sherlock's friendship back to an easy, bantering one and not all the angst, beatings, and estrangements.  

Yes, I hope too, but I think that's quite difficult that things could return as they were in the beginning. A lot of things has changed and a lot of pain has come both in Sherlock's and John's lives. I think that only after a lot of years they could try to be happy again. For now, I only believe that their friendship has become really strong, but not happy. I mean, they have to overcome many things. They'll do together, as brothers, but they have to face their own demons and it wouldn't be easy for them.

[Redbeard]

Did you feel like they were pretty close to that point in TFP, though?

 

Personally, yes.   I was finally starting to get the feeling that John & Sherlock were "back".  But then they went and ended the dang thing.  How dare they 

But yeah, I think if there is a Season 5, I would be very optimistic that the friendship I want to see will be there! :D  

[Artemis]

It's like when they got engaged, John didn't actually get to propose, Mary essentially accepted without being asked. Yes, of course she knew he was going to, that it had been interrupted etc etc, but surely you should wait for someone to actually ask a question of such importance before you go ahead and answer it - if I'm remembering right doesn't she just start referring to herself as his fiance? Yes, it's meant to be a cute move to demonstrate that Mary and John are so in sync she's perfect for him, but it doesn't change the fact she accepts a proposal that hasn't actually been given.

 

I just wanted to point out that there was this bit of dialogue in TEH:

 

Mrs. Hudson: Oh, I'm really pleased, Mary. Have you set a date?

Mary: Er, well we thought May.

Mrs. Hudson: Oh! Spring wedding!

Mary: Yeah. Well, once we've actually got engaged.

John: Yeah.

Mary (looking pointedly at Sherlock): We were interrupted last time.

John: Yeah.

(Sherlock smiles at her.)

 

I took it to mean that there either was or will be a second proposal sometime before TSoT.

 

 

[Pseudonym]

Yup. I can't remember the specifics, but I vaguely remember her (I think running down the stairs?) at some point referring to herself as John's fiance, and there was some reaction that gave me the impression he still hadn't proposed at that point. 

[Arcadia]

When Mary goes to show Sherlock the skip code, she introduces herself to Mrs. Hudson as John's fiancé. The only reaction I remember is Mrs. H's "ooh!" , as in, "oh, you're the one John told me about!"

[Pseudonym]

I suppose it's another thing we have to assume happened off screen then. *sigh*

 

A lot of these off screen things may not be important, but they do strip away from the story when there are so many of them. 

[Arcadia]

I think that's a problem inherent in trying to tell a continuing story as a series of movies rather than in smaller but more frequent episodes. Look at how much we have to assume happens between "episodes" of Star Wars.

 

I really felt both HLV and TFP would have been better served by being made into two hour movies, instead of 90 minutes. Or split up into two episodes. Particularly TFP ... it needed some room to swing before delivering it's punch, so to speak.

 

But then some people would have complained it dragged on too long. Everything's a trade off.

[Pseudonym]

TFP definitely should have been longer. As it stands I really don't see the point of Eurus at all since she just gave in at the end - it robbed the story of a climax imo. I know there was a big debate elsewhere about the story being about love and redemption but since Eurus appears psychopathic enough to neither recognise or value either I don't see the point.   If it had been longer perhaps they would have had more of a chance to make something of it. As it is I can't help thinking Euros was a mistake - bringing in a mastermind secret sister, have her test them but overall do nothing, and then presumably never be mentioned again (if there are further seasons). Weird and honestly a bit self-indulgent on behalf of Moftiss. 

 

Mary would have been a more convincing villain, or Ajay. Ajay being so hell bent on revenge he's out to get John and Rosie would have been a pretty good (though admittedly expected) story. And then it becomes very much about Sherlock and John working together, especially if Mary does go on the run to try to draw him away and it doesn't work. Or he has her captive so she has to watch exactly what he intends to do to her family. I suppose all that might be more John and Mary centric than Moftiss wanted to go but it could have been easy to shift the focus to how Sherlock and John deal with it. I can't stand Mary but even so I would have found that sort of storyline more satisfying - they could still have had her go out a hero and have John as a single father since that's apparently what they were aiming for. 

 

They always say this was a story they were telling from the beginning, do they mean the arc of John and Sherlock's friendship? Or do they mean Eurus? In which case I very much doubt that was planned from the start, it was too much out of left field and unrelated.