John Watson

[Arcadia]

Not that either will ever admit to it. :p

[gerry]

Mycroft recognizes it in Sherlock since he told John exactly that about SHerlock.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

And then John calls Mycroft out for also being dramatic with the best bit of sarcasm.

[Arcadia]

One of my favorite bits, that. :d

[Artemis]

That's all quite true from our perspective. But I doubt very much that Sherlock would see his actions as selfless -- merely logical.

Right, I don't think he views anything he does as selfless. Which, in a way, makes it even more selfless, lol.

[Arcadia]

​I got to thinking over in the "Series 4 Speculation" thread: I'm not sure how John feels about Mycroft these days. At the beginning of TFP he seemed to think Myc was a pompous arse who deserved whatever bad thing happened to him. But I never got that feeling off of John before, that I can recall. I always thought he remained fairly neutral between the brothers ... until that moment in TRF when he thought Myc had fed information about Sherlock to Moriarty. Which might explain John's attitude in S4, except that in HLV he called Mycroft when he found Sherlock in the drug den. If he harbored resentment towards Mycroft after The Fall, would he have done that?
 
I previously put John's attitude in TFP down to loyalty to Sherlock; he's just found out Mycroft has been lying, so he's miffed on behalf of his best friend. But it always kind of bothered me a little, because I'm not sure I think that's in character for John. Anyone else have some thoughts on this?
 
It's also occurred to me how some people would like to have seen Sherlock apologize to Molly, or John apologize to Sherlock ... how about an apology from Mycroft to John for those vicious remarks he made about him when Sherlock was supposed to shoot one of them? Yes, he had a reason, and Sherlock explained the circumstances, but I'd think better of Myc if I thought he'd also taken care of that himself. Just think, we could have had an entire episode of the characters apologizing to each other! Mrs. H could apologize for stuffing Sherlock into the boot, Mummy could apologize for her mean remarks to Mycroft, Molly could apologize for ... uh, something, I'm sure there's something; Wiggins could apologize for being Wiggins ... Sherlock could apologize to everyone six times over for being such an arse to them over the years .... :D

[J.P.]

Molly could apologize to Sherlock about slapping him and to Tom for stabbing his hand with a fork.
Myc could apologize to Sherlock for being a rubbish Big Brother and Sherlock could apologize for being such a brat.
They both - to Mr Hudson for being rude and devastating her house.
Moriarty - for being an annoyance even from the grave.
… and so on… until they will all aggregate at 221B for a huge group-hug.
(with Jim, Marry and CAM hugging on a cloud above Baker Street)

[Arcadia]

Oh no, let's leave CAM out of it, please! If I never see that man again it will be too soon. Even in spirit form. No, ugh. ;) 

[J.P.]

Oh, even if he apologized nicely to Mary and Lady S? :P

[Artemis]

I previously put John's attitude in TFP down to loyalty to Sherlock; he's just found out Mycroft has been lying, so he's miffed on behalf of his best friend. But it always kind of bothered me a little, because I'm not sure I think that's in character for John. Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

I didn't attribute John's attitude to loyalty; I took it to be a little more general than that. Nobody likes the arrogance of someone who thinks they can make decisions for other people because "they know best" (putting aside the argument of whether Myc really did know best or not, or whether he had justifiable reasons). John had shown milder irritation with what he viewed as Mycroft's "power complex" before, and I think in TFP he just thought that Mycroft had finally gone too far, especially seeing as withholding information this time could have resulted in John's own death at the end of TLD. John also hates to be left out of the loop, which he is regularly miffed at Sherlock for doing, and now and then Mary as well.

 

In short, I mostly chalk it up to John's dislike of what he sees as an extremely arrogant move on Mycroft's part.

 

As for apologies, everyone seemed to be mad at everyone this season, lol. John at Mycroft, John at Mary, John at Sherlock, John at himself (actually John at just about everyone I guess, lol); Mummy Holmes at Mycroft, Mrs. Hudson at Mycroft, Molly at Sherlock... everyone had a bone to pick with someone. In some cases a bit overboard, I thought.

 

There were a few apologies I would've liked to have seen (or better yet things that were never said at all, particularly to Mycroft). But the only apology I really felt unhappy about not seeing was John's to Sherlock. I didn't need 5 minutes of grovelling or anything, but some acknowledgement, any acknowledgement, even just an "I shouldn't have done that," would have been satisfying.

[gerry]

But the only apology I really felt unhappy about not seeing was John's to Sherlock. I didn't need 5 minutes of grovelling or anything, but some acknowledgement, any acknowledgement, even just an "I shouldn't have done that," would have been satisfying.

Given their history and what they've done to each other onscreen, no onscreen apology didn't bother me in the least. It seemed in keeping with their characterizations. The end of TLD was supposed to equate to the apology. At least you got some resolution onscreen. All other relationships got zero resolution onscreen.

[Artemis]

The end of TLD was supposed to equate to the apology.

I'm sure that was intent, but that's not really what I took from it. Resolution, yes, but that's a little different to me. I agree that it wasn't handled out of character, though.

 

Personally I felt like most of the other relationships were resolved, or resolved enough to my satisfaction, anyway. But the Sherlock/John relationship holds more importance to me than the others, and what John did to Sherlock stood out to me as being far worse than anything any other (non-villain) character has done this season (even if I understand what led to it), and therefore in need of more acknowledgement. That's just me though, I can see why other people would feel differently.

[gerry]

Personally I felt like most of the other relationships were resolved, or resolved enough to my satisfaction, anyway.

How so and did you think it was onscreen or are you saying you don't care if it was onscreen or not?

 

But the Sherlock/John relationship holds more importance to me than the others, and what John did to Sherlock stood out to me as being far worse than anything any other (non-villain) character has done this season (even if I understand what led to it), and therefore in need of more acknowledgement. That's just me though, I can see why other people would feel differently.

Sherlock egged Norbury on and created the circumstance for Mary to sacrifice herself. It's not like John's anger came from nowhere so the end of TLD was enough for me since it suited the characters' relationship.

[Artemis]

How so and did you think it was onscreen or are you saying you don't care if it was onscreen or not?

A little of both, I suppose. I saw enough on-screen, and I didn't need to see very much.

 

It's not like John's anger came from nowhere

Yeah, I understand what led up to it.

[Arcadia]

Oh, even if he apologized nicely to Mary and Lady S? :P

 

No!! Not even then! Keep the slime bag away from meeeee!!!!!!

 

 

I previously put John's attitude in TFP down to loyalty to Sherlock; he's just found out Mycroft has been lying, so he's miffed on behalf of his best friend. But it always kind of bothered me a little, because I'm not sure I think that's in character for John. Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

I didn't attribute John's attitude to loyalty; I took it to be a little more general than that. Nobody likes the arrogance of someone who thinks they can make decisions for other people because "they know best" (putting aside the argument of whether Myc really did know best or not, or whether he had justifiable reasons). John had shown milder irritation with what he viewed as Mycroft's "power complex" before, and I think in TFP he just thought that Mycroft had finally gone too far, especially seeing as withholding information this time could have resulted in John's own death at the end of TLD. John also hates to be left out of the loop, which he is regularly miffed at Sherlock for doing, and now and then Mary as well.

 

In short, I mostly chalk it up to John's dislike of what he sees as an extremely arrogant move on Mycroft's part.

True. I just thought he seemed a little more self-satisfied at seeing Myc get his comeuppance than usual. Not that Myc doesn't deserve it, it just stuck out at me as different behavior from before.

 

As for apologies, everyone seemed to be mad at everyone this season, lol. John at Mycroft, John at Mary, John at Sherlock, John at himself (actually John at just about everyone I guess, lol); Mummy Holmes at Mycroft, Mrs. Hudson at Mycroft, Molly at Sherlock... everyone had a bone to pick with someone. In some cases a bit overboard, I thought.

 

There were a few apologies I would've liked to have seen (or better yet things that were never said at all, particularly to Mycroft). But the only apology I really felt unhappy about not seeing was John's to Sherlock. I didn't need 5 minutes of grovelling or anything, but some acknowledgement, any acknowledgement, even just an "I shouldn't have done that," would have been satisfying.

 

Well, he admitted as much to Greg. But I get your point. Moffat's such a guy, though; maybe an actual apology is so friggin' uncomfortable that he can't actually write one? :d

 

 

But the only apology I really felt unhappy about not seeing was John's to Sherlock. I didn't need 5 minutes of grovelling or anything, but some acknowledgement, any acknowledgement, even just an "I shouldn't have done that," would have been satisfying.

Given their history and what they've done to each other onscreen, no onscreen apology didn't bother me in the least. It seemed in keeping with their characterizations. The end of TLD was supposed to equate to the apology. At least you got some resolution onscreen. All other relationships got zero resolution onscreen.

 

Yeah, I'm content with the resolution rather than the apology ... which to me, would have been meaningless without the reconciliation that we did get to see in its place. Both would have been nice but I can live with the one. For one thing, it's one of my favorite scenes ever.

 

Other than Molly, I'm content with where they left everything between the characters, I think. It leaves room for more interpersonal conflict in the future without leaving us hanging in limbo. Except for Molly, I can't get from where Sherlock left her at the end of the phone call to her happy, smling face in the ending montage, without some sort of explanation in between. But I'll bet we never get one.

[gerry]

Except for Molly, I can't get from where Sherlock left her at the end of the phone call to her happy, smling face in the ending montage, without some sort of explanation in between. But I'll bet we never get one.

On this we agree.

 

I also thought the "good man" line from Lestrade didn't make a lot of sense given what preceded it onscreen. Making a passing comment about Mycroft doesn't make someone a good man in my book.

[Arcadia]

Well, I took that to mean that Lestrade had noticed the overall change in Sherlock since the beginning of the show, not just that one episode. It was more symbolic than literal, I would say.

[gerry]

Yeah except what overall change in Sherlock would Lestrade had noticed that would support him now being a good man? He's pretty much the same from season 1 to season 4. The Norbury scene wouldn't have happened if he wasn't.

[Artemis]

Well, he admitted as much to Greg.

Did he? Do you mean when he says he hit him hard? That didn't mean much to me. Seemed more like stating the obvious than an acknowledgement of wrongdoing. Especially since immediately after he reverted to the same attitude he'd been having the rest of the episode.

 

I wouldn't say I'm discontent with how their reconciliation played out. It's not like I'm over here broken up about it, lol. I liked that scene too, mostly (the Irene bit is what I actually didn't like about it). I just would have been more content if it had included some sort of apology. I wanted to see better of John. But I basically feel the same: Both would have been nice but I can live with the one.

[gerry]

The Irene bit in that scene still makes no sense to me. It seemed more like a forced way for Moffat to mention Irene since he's the only writer that does.

[Carol the Dabbler]

It does keep the character alive in that universe.  Maybe they have intentions of using her again.  Or maybe they just like to keep their options open.

 

They do seem to have slammed the coffin closed on Jim Moriarty enough times that they could now just let him rest in peace (or eternal torment, whatever).

[Pseudonym]

I seem to be one of the few people who doesn't like that final scene in TLD at all.

[gerry]

It does keep the character alive in that universe. Maybe they have intentions of using her again. Or maybe they just like to keep their options open.

I'm sure that was the intent but it made no sense in the context the reference was used. Still not sure why it was necessary though. Everyone knows who she is.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe their main purpose was to clarify the ending of ASiB by establishing that yes, she really is alive.  Otherwise, the fans who assumed the rescue scene was just Sherlock's daydream and Mycroft was right about her being dead, might object if they brought her back in person in a future series.

[Artemis]

I seem to be one of the few people who doesn't like that final scene in TLD at all.

 

Why's that, Pseud?  (I remember one of your reasons, which I heartily agree with, but I don't want to argue with people about it, lol.)