John Watson

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, I sympathize with John as well. But I can also understand why Sherlock made the choice he did. It may seem like an extreme measure, but when someone's life has been threatened, extreme measures may sometimes be called for. And fortunately the baddies didn't kill John, so at least the extreme measure didn't backfire.

Didn't he make the plan to exclude keep John, Mrs H and Lestrade before Moriarty threatened them on the roof? He planned the fake suicide before going up to the roof and he had already kept John out of the loop by then.

 

Judging by what Sherlock said about having a number of plans already sketched out (then narrowing them down as he went along), I would guess that -- as soon as he realized that things were about to start happening -- he was very careful to do (or avoid doing) everything that was crucial to ANY of the plans.  So if plans 4b, 8a, and 23w required him to keep John in the dark (and I suspect most of them did), he would keep John in the dark from well ahead of time, just in case he ended up using one of those plans.

[Arcadia]

Plan 23w.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hey, ya gotta be prepared!

[Van Buren Supernova]

Nice! :D

I bet all those variant scenarios doesn't involve John gets harmed, at least low percentage of him being harmed. (emotional doesn't count)

 

 

Yea, I loved the window too, but I meant more when he looks at someone and you see his deductions coming up as words. I did feel the window scene was detracted from though when she said she set up all the little clues in it.

I always wonder about the note and the state it is in. Did Eurus stick it in Sherringford's kitchen? I imagine if they have kitchen, it would be big, with probably small amount of window. Or maybe she put it in some of the staff's kitchen and let it exposed to normal kitchen stuffs and smell like Sherlock deduced. Or maybe she had some usual staying place for months before they meet? She has to fabricate the condition of the note very well to fool Sherlock.

[Arcadia]

At first I was thinking the note was real; that is, written by the real Faith, and Eurus just got hold of it somehow. But I'm not sure if that makes sense, since the real Faith has no memory of it. So now I wonder if Eurus didn't just fake it somehow. It might be hard to fool Sherlock, but she would be the one who could do it.

[T.o.b.y]

At first I was thinking the note was real; that is, written by the real Faith, and Eurus just got hold of it somehow. But I'm not sure if that makes sense, since the real Faith has no memory of it. So now I wonder if Eurus didn't just fake it somehow. It might be hard to fool Sherlock, but she would be the one who could do it.

I thought she said it was Faith's original note and she acquired it through a "mutual friend"?

[J.P.]

And we see CS taking it from Faith while she's still dizzy.

BTW, just like with the sharks, the Miss Me note on the Faith's note (aka a message from Jim, being actually a message from Eurus) AND also being written on the messages from Mary are damn confusing.

Some months ago I would suspect a conspiracy or a deeper meaning. Now I suspect carelessness.

 

Dang, it was more fun before.

[Pseudonym]

Pretty sure the note is real but the fading, smells etc are what she set up - though why she would bother I don't know. A test I suppose but a dull one. 

 

It was definitely more fun before. 

[gerry]

Nice! :D

I bet all those variant scenarios doesn't involve John gets harmed, at least low percentage of him being harmed. (emotional doesn't count)

I'd imagine the emotional counted to John and I'd imagine it's possible in those million options to have accomplished both.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I'd imagine the emotional counted to John...

Of course.

To you, to many others, to me too, John approaching Sherlock's 'body' is one of the most heartbreaking scene in the series, when he choked up at the therapy, and in the grave. It still gives me chill and I still have hard time watching TRF (not knowing original material and was falsely spoiled that he really dies)

 

But judging from the character, it wouldn't be high on Sherlock's priority in situation they were in. (And from your take of Sherlock's ruthless character, you should be the first who agree with it).

If I were Sherlock, I'd choose to take the risk of hurting John's feeling than him being dead. Emotional hurt is bad, but death is final and permanent. Don't forget how and what Sherlock is, it's quite obvious what he would choose.

 

..and I'd imagine it's possible in those million options to have accomplished both.

Could be.

But he was also dancing with Moriarty. He had that many plans to suit whichever ways Moriarty was going, trying to influence it to his favor as much as he could, but without rising Moriarty's suspicion, which I suppose makes the options being less and less over time.

 

Thinking as Moriarty, the way to bring down someone like Sherlock is to target his weakness. He has a few, but the easiest, and most effective one is to dangle John's life in front of his eyes. If you plan to attack effectively to bring down someone, don't merely aim for the face, go for the jugular.

 

For Sherlock and Moriarty, one has to go down, they are not half a**-ing it.

 

Being Sherlock at disadvantage, having leverages, being on the side of angel (that is hell of disadvatage), his plan came out pretty well I would say.

Having all around happy ending with Moriarty? I don't think so.

[Arcadia]

 

At first I was thinking the note was real; that is, written by the real Faith, and Eurus just got hold of it somehow. But I'm not sure if that makes sense, since the real Faith has no memory of it. So now I wonder if Eurus didn't just fake it somehow. It might be hard to fool Sherlock, but she would be the one who could do it.

I thought she said it was Faith's original note and she acquired it through a "mutual friend"?

 

 

She did, but like all the Holmes siblings, she's an accomplished liar ... so do we believe her?

 

And we see CS taking it from Faith while she's still dizzy.

 

BTW, just like with the sharks, the Miss Me note on the Faith's note (aka a message from Jim, being actually a message from Eurus) AND also being written on the messages from Mary are damn confusing.

Some months ago I would suspect a conspiracy or a deeper meaning. Now I suspect carelessness.

 

Dang, it was more fun before.

 

Confusing how? I don't remember being confused. They were both explained immediately, I thought? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean?

 

Pretty sure the note is real but the fading, smells etc are what she set up - though why she would bother I don't know. A test I suppose but a dull one. 

 

It was definitely more fun before. 

 

Not a test, she was pretending to be a client, remember? She wanted to lead Sherlock to Smith, and did. Why, I don't know. Just being a good citizen, maybe. Helping to eradicate crime.

 

 

I'd imagine the emotional counted to John...

Of course.

To you, to many others, to me too, John approaching Sherlock's 'body' is one of the most heartbreaking scene in the series, when he choked up at the therapy, and in the grave. It still gives me chill and I still have hard time watching TRF (not knowing original material and was falsely spoiled that he really dies)

 

And for the writer, that's the payoff ... making the audience feel something. Continuity be damned, apparently. Works for me, YMMV.

[Pseudonym]

But didn't she get him to explain how he had made his deductions - leading to the window scene? Like she wanted to see if he got all the little clues she set up, see how observant he was? That's what I mean by a test - would he sharp enough to spot everything and understand what it meant?

[J.P.]

Arcadia, by confusing I mean the same symbols used for different things, like sharks being connected to CAM and then coming back in TST. The same with Miss Me. It was Jim's/Eurus line, being also on Mary's messages, it may suggest there was a connection between them.

 

As for the test: was Eurus leading Sherlock to CS a plan that accidentally helped Sherlock get himself in trouble?

[Arcadia]

But didn't she get him to explain how he had made his deductions - leading to the window scene? Like she wanted to see if he got all the little clues she set up, see how observant he was? That's what I mean by a test - would he sharp enough to spot everything and understand what it meant?

 

Could be. Makes sense.

 

Arcadia, by confusing I mean the same symbols used for different things, like sharks being connected to CAM and then coming back in TST. The same with Miss Me. It was Jim's/Eurus line, being also on Mary's messages, it may suggest there was a connection between them.

Oh, okay. I guess they didn't confuse me because, like I mentioned above, they were explained right away ... they were both intended to get Sherlock's attention. But I see what you mean.

 

As for the test: was Eurus leading Sherlock to CS a plan that accidentally helped Sherlock get himself in trouble?

 

I think so. Unless Eurus somehow knew about Mary's recording, and was just being helpful.

[J.P.]

Here is a picture of Victor actor and MF showing them as before and after versions :D

 

[Arcadia]

Maybe that's why I have the impression that John, subliminally, reminded Sherlock of Victor. I don't believe they had that in mind from the first episode, but it still ties some things together nicely. I always found it strange that the "anti-social" Sherlock seemed so happy to have found a flatmate.

[T.o.b.y]

Isn't the kid who plays Victor adorable? And little Sherlock too. Great casting!

 

I don't know if John is supposed to be like Victor in any specific way. He is one of the few people who "get" Sherlock and can form and uphold a friendship with him. That alone is a lot.

[J.P.]

But on the other hand Sherlock has to allow someone close enough to "get" him. This might have been a factor.

[Arcadia]

No, I don't mean that John is like Victor, necessarily ... just that it makes sense that Sherlock has a lingering sense of what it's like to have a friend that enjoys doing the same things you do ... and on some level, still wants that in his life. Otherwise I think he'd move heaven and earth to avoid having John around. That's what's always puzzled  me ... if he's so disdainful/skeptical/whatever of friendship, why did he offer his to John? Because he did, you know. John didn't force himself on Sherlock, Sherlock invited him in.

[J.P.]

Well, it's canon. :P

[Arcadia]

Yeah, but the personality of "our" Sherlock isn't. Imo. Based on what I've read so far. I think. Maybe. :p

[gerry]

(And from your take of Sherlock's ruthless character, you should be the first who agree with it).

For the record, I don't find Sherlock's choice out of character nor do I think Sherlock is ruthless, heartless or an overall asshole but I do think he is fundamentally selfish and egocentric. Ruthless, heartless and asshole is how I would describe Hugh Laurie's House which is why I couldn't watch that show. He was so unlikable. Maybe it's the difference in acting choices, dunno.

 

If I were Sherlock, I'd choose to take the risk of hurting John's feeling than him being dead

This is what I don't like about it. I don't think that was the only choice, this is just the only one that Sherlock considered at the time. And this is what I think John was getting at when he said for two years just one hint was all I would have needed. John, as I, likely thought there were other options available.

 

...If you plan to attack effectively to bring down someone, don't merely aim for the face, go for the jugular.

 

For Sherlock and Moriarty, one has to go down, they are not half a**-ing it....Having all around happy ending with Moriarty? I don't think so.

Moriarty was dead when he Sherlock faked his death which could be considered a happy ending. I don't disagree that Moriarty would target those closest to Sherlock but it makes no sense why his family (Mycroft and his parents) didn't qualify for those closest to Sherlock that could be in danger enough to also be in the dark? Sherlock was willlng to take the risk of his family being tortured/hurt but not his friends? Moriarty and his henchmen know Sherlock well enough to know who his friends are but they don't know about his relationship with his family? It was a bit arbitrary which lessens to me the believability that such an extreme measure (as Carol put it) was necessary but only for John, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade.

[J.P.]

Re House - Sherlock seems more impulsive and his bad behaviour is mostly an answer to a situation. Sometimes he doesn't even notice he's being rude. House is mean and he knows it. He's using his superiority to hurt people. To stay around him is probably much harder than being around Sherlock. Still, I find the character very interesting, as I'm curious about the reasons behind his behaviour. What they both have in common - they both think they are unlovable and try to prove it, and try to stay away from emotions.

 

The thing with the parents indeed doesn't make sense. But I see it rather as a plot hole and not Sherlock not caring for his family. If you "forget" about the parents, it makes sense, because Mycroft surely knows how to take care of himself.

[Arcadia]

I also took that to mean that anyone watching the Holmes brothers from a distance would probably think Mycroft is NOT one of Sherlock's pressure points, any more than Molly appeared to be. It might have even been true, at that point.

 

I also like to think that Mycroft's got his parents wrapped up in security so tight that even a mouse couldn't get through. Unbeknownst to them, of course.

[Pseudonym]

I'm still dying to know more about Mummy, she must be sharper than she seems. Wouldn't be surprised if Papa Holmes has a few tricks up his sleeves too.