John Watson

[gerry]

Re House - Sherlock seems more impulsive and his bad behaviour is mostly an answer to a situation. Sometimes he doesn't even notice he's being rude. House is mean and he knows it. He's using his superiority to hurt people. To stay around him is probably much harder than being around Sherlock. Still, I find the character very interesting, as I'm curious about the reasons behind his behaviour. What they both have in common - they both think they are unlovable and try to prove it, and try to stay away from emotions.

JP did they ever explain why House such a jerk? Admittedly I only saw a handful of episodes but they never tried to humanize him in the shows I did watch. I watched it enough to think he was too much of a jerk to care about his backstory.

 

The thing with the parents indeed doesn't make sense. But I see it rather as a plot hole and not Sherlock not caring for his family.

What was strange about it was that John and Sherlock had a specific exchange about his parents not going to the funeral in TEH. If it's a plot hole would they have specifically mentioned the parents were in on it? It seemed like a way to rub salt in John's wound so to speak.

[gerry]

I also took that to mean that anyone watching the Holmes brothers from a distance would probably think Mycroft is NOT one of Sherlock's pressure points.....

didnt Irene's taunting of Sherlock based on what Moriarty said imply otherwise?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Regarding House -- does that show have a reasonable amount of levity to offset the unlikeable lead character?

[J.P.]

I haven't watched all the episodes and our TV seems to broadcast them in a pretty random sequence, and I actually didn't see the beginning. What I know is that he's addicted to vicodine because of the pain in his injured leg (an accident?) He is divorced but seems still to love his wife. He's quite messed up, but sometimes his human shows and these are really glorious moments. Hugh Laurie is so good at it.

 

I kind of like House - from afar. But I always had a soft spot for brainy assholes.

 

I would like the series better though if they focused on the characters and left all those pesky "cases". :P

[gerry]

Carol, the supporting characters were likable and cared a lot about the patients but no it's pretty serious tone for the most part. The humor is really sardonic and usually when House is being mean. At least in the episodes I watched. It definitely doesnt have the levity of Sherlock.

[J.P.]

Found this on Tumblr:

 

nixxie-fic hat gerebloggt nixxie-fic

Oh, because I blame him for the death of my wife. And so, I think all the stuff that I felt about Sherlock anyway as John is being given voice and is being given full reign.

Because, you know, Sherlock has always pissed John off. Always. As well as loving him, he also wants to slap him quite a lot of the time, and I think this is John’s way of giving vent to that.

He’s allowing the loss of his wife to give him license to go, ‘Yeah, and it’s your fault, you f***er. It was you. You said you would look after her and you didn’t.’ And of course, like most of those things, it’s misplaced because what John’s really thinking is, ‘I couldn’t look after her. I didn’t stop her from dying, but rather than dealing with that, I’m going to blame you.’

—  ‘John and Sherlock have had bumpy patches before. Why is this rift with Sherlock so different?’ - Martin Freeman Interview with PBS - (x)

 

[Arcadia]

In case you want to listen, the whole podcast is here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/podcasts/sherlock-martin-freeman-on-john-and-sherlocks-complicated-relationship/?utm_source=tumblr&utm_medium=pbsofficial&utm_campaign=sherlock_2017. It might not be available everywhere, I don't know how that works.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Found this on Tumblr:

 

 

 

nixxie-fic hat gerebloggt nixxie-fic

 

Oh, because I blame him for the death of my wife. And so, I think all the stuff that I felt about Sherlock anyway as John is being given voice and is being given full reign.

Because, you know, Sherlock has always pissed John off. Always. As well as loving him, he also wants to slap him quite a lot of the time, and I think this is John’s way of giving vent to that.

He’s allowing the loss of his wife to give him license to go, ‘Yeah, and it’s your fault, you f***er. It was you. You said you would look after her and you didn’t.’ And of course, like most of those things, it’s misplaced because what John’s really thinking is, ‘I couldn’t look after her. I didn’t stop her from dying, but rather than dealing with that, I’m going to blame you.’ — ‘John and Sherlock have had bumpy patches before. Why is this rift with Sherlock so different?’ - Martin Freeman Interview with PBS - (x)

Yu-p. If that's what Martin Freeman meant to convey, he did a great job.

 

Now comes me, the amateur psychologist for fictional characters: This is why Sherlock works as a friend for John in spite of everything, because he can deal with John's anger. John can afford to unleash all his unpleasantness on him, which has to be reigned in at all other times because he thinks he has to be this super good guy. Sherlock can take it and he also understands it even though he claims he doesn't. He doesn't waste time getting angry back at John, he looks beyond and asks, now what does this mean and what am I going to do about it.

 

There's an interesting contrast between how John acts around his therapists and how he does around Sherlock. With the professional people whom he pays to help him, he is very reserved, hardly lets down his guard and withholds crucial information (like the fact that he is having an almost non stop conversation with his dead wife). With Sherlock, eventually, it all comes out. Of all people!

 

Maybe it helps that Sherlock is a self-proclaimed sociopath, so beside him, John will always look pretty good. Or Sherlock is just so infuriating that he can't stop himself. Whatever the reason, it works.

[Carol the Dabbler]

That sounds pretty consistent with what we've seen, Tobe. Of course the downside of Sherlock accepting John's anger is that he does so even when he might benefit by taking it seriously. Oh well, it's a trade-off!

 

By the way, despite what your spellchecker may have told you, it should be "rein in," like what you'd do with a headstrong horse (and the opposite of giving free rein). "Reign" is increasingly common, though, so in a hundred years, it may be the standard usage

[T.o.b.y]

That sounds pretty consistent with what we've seen, Tobe. Of course the downside of Sherlock accepting John's anger is that he does so even when he might benefit by taking it seriously. Oh well, it's a trade-off!

 

By the way, despite what your spellchecker may have told you, it should be "rein in," like what you'd do with a headstrong horse (and the opposite of giving free rein). "Reign" is increasingly common, though, so in a hundred years, it may be the standard usage

Thanks, Carol! I am actually on my phone which doesn't so much spell check as suggest words based on the first few letters I have typed and sometimes, I press confirm by mistake and end up with some really weird sentences.

 

The funniest error is "Mycroft" instead of "my". The phone sure knows my fandom! :-D

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh good heavens, yes -- isn't that annoying!  I should write down some of the "suggestions" my phone has made, but I'm usually just wanting to finish typing.

 

The other day, though, Alex was texting me and mentioned The Guns of Navarrone -- which must be too old a movie for the autocomplete's taste, because it came out Guns of Macaroni.  So of course now we call it that.  :D

[Artemis]

I'm just testing to see if I can post in this thread.  Does it show up?

 

 

[Arcadia]

Yep.

 

I guess Dr. Watson has just taken a dislike to VBS. Can't blame him. She's so difficult, and all.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Haiz.. my parents say the same thing :p

Test.

 

Update: nope. Still can't.

This is the error msg.

 

This is not 403 or 404 msg and I don't have words other than those that had been used, I mostly replied to quotes.

Had tried relog-in, restart, internet connection is fine, other posts are fine. I find nothing wrong!

 

Fine Dr. Watson.! Geez.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, VBS, I can see that post, so the problem might have been a temporary thing.  Why don't you try posting the one you had trouble with before?

[Van Buren Supernova]

Still can't. Got error msg above. Nothinv wrong on my size. Nevermind, thanks for the help. I believe I said something bad about Dr. Watson in the post and he is not happy about it.

 

Maybe I'll try again later or when I have access to laptop.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Do you recall whether the error message included the word "Forbidden"?  Could have just been that you used a word the forum software doesn't like.

[mishab]

 

Found this on Tumblr:

 

 

nixxie-fic hat gerebloggt nixxie-fic

 

Oh, because I blame him for the death of my wife. And so, I think all the stuff that I felt about Sherlock anyway as John is being given voice and is being given full reign.

Because, you know, Sherlock has always pissed John off. Always. As well as loving him, he also wants to slap him quite a lot of the time, and I think this is John’s way of giving vent to that.

He’s allowing the loss of his wife to give him license to go, ‘Yeah, and it’s your fault, you f***er. It was you. You said you would look after her and you didn’t.’ And of course, like most of those things, it’s misplaced because what John’s really thinking is, ‘I couldn’t look after her. I didn’t stop her from dying, but rather than dealing with that, I’m going to blame you.’ — ‘John and Sherlock have had bumpy patches before. Why is this rift with Sherlock so different?’ - Martin Freeman Interview with PBS - (x)

Yu-p. If that's what Martin Freeman meant to convey, he did a great job.

 

Now comes me, the amateur psychologist for fictional characters: This is why Sherlock works as a friend for John in spite of everything, because he can deal with John's anger. John can afford to unleash all his unpleasantness on him, which has to be reigned in at all other times because he thinks he has to be this super good guy. Sherlock can take it and he also understands it even though he claims he doesn't. He doesn't waste time getting angry back at John, he looks beyond and asks, now what does this mean and what am I going to do about it.

 

There's an interesting contrast between how John acts around his therapists and how he does around Sherlock. With the professional people whom he pays to help him, he is very reserved, hardly lets down his guard and withholds crucial information (like the fact that he is having an almost non stop conversation with his dead wife). With Sherlock, eventually, it all comes out. Of all people!

 

Maybe it helps that Sherlock is a self-proclaimed sociopath, so beside him, John will always look pretty good. Or Sherlock is just so infuriating that he can't stop himself. Whatever the reason, it works.

 

 

I don't think John tries to be some kind of saint. I am not sure what instances you are talking about where he is hiding his unpleasantness. Some of his anger towards Sherlock is justified and in some cases, well, he has bad days too. Just like Sherlock. If Sherlock is saving John's life some days, he is also being a dick to him most days. And Sherlock infuriating most people is established in the show since episode 1. 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Do you recall whether the error message included the word "Forbidden"?  Could have just been that you used a word the forum software doesn't like.

I added the error msg on my post before yours. No forbidden stuffs, well trained for that one.

 

Anyway, below is my intended post, as belated as it is, maybe it comes through this time. I suspect it's probably caused by some errors in the quotes so I simpilied them.

 

 

Sorry I even take longer to get back to this thread!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(And from your take of Sherlock's ruthless character, you should be the first who agree with it).

For the record, I don't find Sherlock's choice out of character nor do I think Sherlock is ruthless, heartless or an overall asshole but I do think he is fundamentally selfish and egocentric. Ruthless, heartless and asshole is how I would describe Hugh Laurie's House which is why I couldn't watch that show. He was so unlikable. Maybe it's the difference in acting choices, dunno.

Oh maybe I shouldn't use certain word.

But at least you and I agree that Sherlock didn't behave out of character for TRF.

And fair enough that you think he is fundamentally selfish and egocentric. I disagree with you, but I had given my reasons and this wouldn't go anywhere since like you said, we view Sherlock very differently.

 

Now, how about switching it around. What do you think of John? Would you say he is selfish as well? I'd say yes, really. He was angry because he got his feeling hurt from his best friend's elaborate scheme to save them and crack dangerous criminal network. He focused of his emotional hurt a bit too much instead of bigger picture. To his credit, he did forgive Sherlock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I were Sherlock, I'd choose to take the risk of hurting John's feeling than him being dead

This is what I don't like about it. I don't think that was the only choice, this is just the only one that Sherlock considered at the time. And this is what I think John was getting at when he said for two years just one hint was all I would have needed. John, as I, likely thought there were other options available.

Well, have fun with that. It would be ideal world. I don't believe for a second that Sherlock only considered one option. As said, I had tried to give my reasons. If you don't buy it, then you don't have to. I don't have anything new to add.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...If you plan to attack effectively to bring down someone, don't merely aim for the face, go for the jugular.

For Sherlock and Moriarty, one has to go down, they are not half a**-ing it....Having all around happy ending with Moriarty? I don't think so.

Moriarty was dead when he Sherlock faked his death which could be considered a happy ending.

Yes, but with the impact of John's feeling being hurt as the impact, that you dislike and protesting about. I was talking about 'better solution' possibility that you want that everyone gets away almost harmless and John's feeling not hurt.

 

I don't disagree that Moriarty would target those closest to Sherlock but it makes no sense why his family (Mycroft and his parents) didn't qualify for those closest to Sherlock that could be in danger enough to also be in the dark? Sherlock was willlng to take the risk of his family being tortured/hurt but not his friends? Moriarty and his henchmen know Sherlock well enough to know who his friends are but they don't know about his relationship with his family? It was a bit arbitrary which lessens to me the believability that such an extreme measure (as Carol put it) was necessary but only for John, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade.

Tried to explain that one too, so yah. I have nothing more to add unless you have new points to make.

 

I think Sherlock is being 'nice', at least nicer than me I suppose. I imagine after all the efforts, come back and my best friend tries to punch me bloody and refusing to see things from my shoes. I'd say goodbye, f* you. And spare me from the trouble of having to take care of his feeling and safety again. Of course I'd feel sad and bad, but enough to the point that I'd stop trying and walk. If he decided to approach me again, I'd welcome that, because I do understand that he is hurt because he cares, it's just that I think he also should try to see other's POV and ironically, being less selfish. But then again, they did that. So I have no qualms whatsoever for both Sherlock and John in TEH.

 

 

Re House - Sherlock seems more impulsive and his bad behaviour is mostly an answer to a situation. Sometimes he doesn't even notice he's being rude. House is mean and he knows it. He's using his superiority to hurt people. To stay around him is probably much harder than being around Sherlock. Still, I find the character very interesting, as I'm curious about the reasons behind his behaviour. What they both have in common - they both think they are unlovable and try to prove it, and try to stay away from emotions.

 

The thing with the parents indeed doesn't make sense. But I see it rather as a plot hole and not Sherlock not caring for his family. If you "forget" about the parents, it makes sense, because Mycroft surely knows how to take care of himself.

Yes to all your takes about House.

I have soft spot for brilliant a*holes too.

 

@TLD, I won't start about TLD again, if I can help it.

I understand that TLD is to be interpreted as what that has been said; no biggie. I understand that, Moffiss's, MF's and any of your views about the writer's intention. It just doesn't mean I'd accept that because I have different interpretation I can't shake off, I tried. So for me, there is no point protesting about it again as it's not going anywhere anyway, I just have to live with it and count that as horrible character execution and possible worst part of Sherlock series.

[Carol the Dabbler]

@TLD, I won't start about TLD again, if I can help it.

I understand that TLD is to be interpreted as what that has been said; no biggie. I understand that, Moffiss's, MF's and any of your views about the writer's intention. It just doesn't mean I'd accept that because I have different interpretation I can't shake off, I tried. So for me, there is no point protesting about it again as it's not going anywhere anyway, I just have to live with it and count that as horrible character execution and possible worst part of Sherlock series.

If you're talking about the kick-the-shit-out-of-Sherlock scene, I assume that's just another example of their idea of spicing things up, making them more exciting, etc.  Personally, I could do without quite so much "excitement."

 

In fact, that's one reason I fell in love with Sherlock (the show) in the first place.  It mercifully lacked the frenetic pace, loud noise, etc., of so many current shows and movies.  I am a bit nervous that Moftiss are heading in that direction.  I hope I'm wrong.

[gerry]

Now, how about switching it around. What do you think of John? Would you say he is selfish as well? I'd say yes, really. He was angry because he got his feeling hurt from his best friend's elaborate scheme to save them and crack dangerous criminal network. He focused of his emotional hurt a bit too much instead of bigger picture. To his credit, he did forgive Sherlock.

Admittedly, I can relate to John because I know what's it like to deal with someone regularly that is as demanding as Sherlock is to be the center of focus of your life. I think the sarcastic joking John and Lestrade was doing about Sherlock being analagous with a newborn baby had elements of truth in it. Dealing with Sherlock on a daily basis would be quite challenging so I can relate to MF describing John as both loving Sherlock and often wanting to slap him. That can really grate on you and there are going to be moments where Sherlock's emotional cluelessness would make you hit your limit and make you lose your temper. I think the moments that John has lost his temper with Sherlock, often John had every right to be angry with Sherlock. Like in HoB and TEH. Sherlock was not responsible for Mary's death but he was responsible for his own actions like taunting Norbury so John being angry with Sherlock makes emotional sense even if not intellectually so. Of course the beating was way OTT for me but I understood John's anger. At the same time, it's easy to move into martyrdom if you view yourself as a victim. There's no gun to his head to make John be Sherlock's friend because he knows who Sherlock is.

 

Back to your question. No I don't view John as generally selfish where Sherlock is concerned. In TGG, he was willing to sacrifice himself for Sherlock, in TRF he punched Lestrade's boss for insulting Sherlock, he often lets Sherlock use him to show off his knowledge like in TGG with the shoe or to do his gruntwork like in ASIB. He has proven his loyalty often over time. He always puts Sherlock ahead of his girlfriends that's for sure! So if he gets angry at Sherlock for lying to him for two years that he was dead or for treating him like a literal lab rat or implying John isn't is friend in HoB I think Sherlock deserves John's anger. It's not like John gets angry with SHerlock for no reason.

 

My feeling that lying to John for two years wasn't necessary doesn't mean it makes Sherlock unlikable to me or that I don't understand why Sherlock made that choice. It was a human decision but with all human decisions there's always room for second guessing whether you would make the same choice after seeing the consequences. I think the only difference between you and i with this is that you feel Sherlock's choice was necessary.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Yup, I think it's the matter of perpectives and how we are looking at it or who we are more inclined to relate to.

 

I'm glad you said you understand why Sherlock made that choice, which I didn't get earlier.

 

I always believe there is selfishness in any kind of love, and the biggest of them is thinking about the impact on losing someone to you and the devastation on you. It's selfish yet it also shows the level of affection you have for them.

Can't solve that one though. Never meant to be solved anyway.

 

And I really miss TRF John.

One of my underrated favorite moment:

 

nobody could fake being such an annoying dick all the time.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh my heavens yes, I love that little scene!

 

In my opinion, what really makes it wonderful is -- even though that's an inherently funny line -- John delivers it without even a trace of a smile, deadly serious because it's a deadly serious situation.  I keep wondering whether it was in the script that way, or it was the director's idea, or Martin Freeman's idea -- or if MF did his usual several-versions thing, it may even have been the editor's decision.  In any case, it's wonderful.

[Artemis]

And I really miss TRF John.

 

Me too.  I'd like to see more of TRF John in season 5, if there is one.

 

 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Yes, I miss that dynamic and that John.

TFP gives me tiny bit of classic John but we definitely need season 5.

I need that.