John Watson

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

 

 

@TLD, I won't start about TLD again, if I can help it.

I understand that TLD is to be interpreted as what that has been said; no biggie. I understand that, Moffiss's, MF's and any of your views about the writer's intention. It just doesn't mean I'd accept that because I have different interpretation I can't shake off, I tried. So for me, there is no point protesting about it again as it's not going anywhere anyway, I just have to live with it and count that as horrible character execution and possible worst part of Sherlock series.

If you're talking about the kick-the-shit-out-of-Sherlock scene, I assume that's just another example of their idea of spicing things up, making them more exciting, etc. Personally, I could do without quite so much "excitement."

I think they want to make it more dramatic and fall flat with the reasoning.

Yes, that is what I was talking about. I probably more receptive to it if the justification is not that carelessly built up.

 

In fact, that's one reason I fell in love with Sherlock (the show) in the first place. It mercifully lacked the frenetic pace, loud noise, etc., of so many current shows and movies. I am a bit nervous that Moftiss are heading in that direction. I hope I'm wrong.

I have only watched once and half, actually don't remember S4 to be too loud and action driven. What comes to mind was just street chase and drone, is there anything else I forget?

 

The rest, to my memory, are in usual pace, not much different with previous seasons. Even in TFP, the urgency is almost comparable to TGG, although in shorter period of time. So I actually don't have problem with that pacing, action etc, I don't see significant differences with what we already have.

 

I just miss the 'small' cases, ordinary charm. And although it's funny, the red balloon. I can't speak for a lot, but from a few I have read, Dr.Watson would never find Sudoku more fascinating than Sherlock Holmes's deduction. Nope. Never!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe the Moftisses think they're fulfilling the small-cases requirement by throwing in a few brief synopses as punch lines. Sorry, guys, but I'd really like to see those expanded, with maybe just a smidgen of your epic cases for spice. More casework and everyday interactions amongst the characters, please. After all, this is supposed to be a show about a detective, not Sadist of the Week.

[gerry]

I always believe there is selfishness in any kind of love,....And I really miss TRF John.

I think every human on Earth has some level of selfishness in them. It's just human nature but I view it like a scale: less selfish/more giving to very selfish/less giving. In Sherlock-reality, Molly seems on the former end of the scale and Sherlock is definitely at the latter end of the scale. John seems somewhere in the middle.

 

The best thing for me about TRF is that all of the characters had good lines/something interesting to do: John, Moriarty, Molly, Mrs. H, Lestrade and Donovan. It really had a good balance of all characters. I wish more of the Sherlock episodes had that.

[Boton]

 

And I really miss TRF John.

One of my underrated favorite moment:

 

nobody could fake being such an annoying dick all the time.

 

I love this scene, and, like Carol, I wonder if this was more of MF's multiple-choice acting takes or some good direction or what.  But it just hits the right notes for me.  That, in a nutshell, is John's true reason for believing Sherlock -- he lives there, and no one could fake the Sherlock persona 24/7, and that's the guy John likes.  And the whole exchange, while being serious, is also so tremendously masculine.  It is what I love about male friendships; I wish more female friendships had that level of snark wrapped in sparring to convey affection.

[Arcadia]

I have to admit I don't see the characters on a sliding scale so much; I feel it's more complex than that. Blends of this, that and the other thing that the sliding scale doesn't allow for. But also I think I'm just reluctant to pin them down to any one spot; I like the unpredictability when I'm not sure exactly what's going on inside a character. Besides, that makes it easier to avoid the audience going "But that's out of character!" :d

 

In John's case (since that's the thread we're in ) I like that sometimes he's understanding, sometimes ticked off, sometimes the smartest one in the room, sometimes the most clueless. That makes him more relatable to me. And I like that even his loyalty can be tested; but not, apparently, Sherlock's. I like that in one area, at least, Sherlock has the "moral" upper hand. (Yes, I'm talking about the TLD beating.) And interestingly, it's his control over his emotions that puts him there.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Good point. Heaven knows I am better at knowing what I should do than I am at actually doing it. Sherlock may not be the best at knowing what he should do, but by gum when he believes that something is the right thing to do, then he's number one at getting it done. (Even though we may sometimes think he's misjudged the situation, as in dragging Mary back to London.)

[gerry]

Sliding scale is just a way for me to describe how I view the general personalities of the characters/people in general. I didn't mean it as a literal scientific analysis.

[Artemis]

And I like that even his loyalty can be tested; but not, apparently, Sherlock's. I like that in one area, at least, Sherlock has the "moral" upper hand. (Yes, I'm talking about the TLD beating.) And interestingly, it's his control over his emotions that puts him there.

 

^ This!

 

 

Sherlock may not be the best at knowing what he should do, but by gum when he believes that something is the right thing to do, then he's number one at getting it done. (Even though we may sometimes think he's misjudged the situation, as in dragging Mary back to London.)

 

^ And this!

 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

And I like that even his loyalty can be tested; but not, apparently, Sherlock's. I like that in one area, at least, Sherlock has the "moral" upper hand. (Yes, I'm talking about the TLD beating.) And interestingly, it's his control over his emotions that puts him there.

You mean when Sherlock is loyal, he IS consistently loyal?

Hmm.. I like that.

 

 

Sherlock may not be the best at knowing what he should do, but by gum when he believes that something is the right thing to do, then he's number one at getting it done. (Even though we may sometimes think he's misjudged the situation, as in dragging Mary back to London.)

And this too.

 

Sometimes I ponder why I like Sherlock so much and willing to justify his actions. Well, mostly because I find many are justifiable, despite having a lot of disagreements, but I always think Sherlock has a lot of admirable qualities that I love from a person. While he could be a d*ckhead, I love him for many, idiotic or not, paths that he chooses and weirdly, I feel he is very selfless, even with plethora of arguments that can be thrown at my directions for saying so. Yes, those are all true in a way, but from the way I look, there are a lot of significant little things he does for people around him that are selfless, although not in ordinary ways.

[Artemis]

Sometimes I ponder why I like Sherlock so much and willing to justify his actions. Well, mostly because I find many are justifiable, despite having a lot of disagreements, but I always think Sherlock has a lot of admirable qualities that I love from a person. While he could be a d*ckhead, I love him for many, idiotic or not, paths that he chooses and weirdly, I feel he is very selfless, even with plethora of arguments that can be thrown at my directions for saying so. Yes, those are all true in a way, but from the way I look, there are a lot of significant little things he does for people around him that are selfless, although not in ordinary ways.

 

I agree.  I think that in many cases, what's judged as selfishness by John or others on the show is really just Sherlock having completely different priorities than ordinary people.  For instance, he prioritizes catching a murderer over John trying to "get off" with Sarah.  He prioritizes sparing Molly wasted time on a "gay" boyfriend over sparing her feelings.  He prioritizes uninterrupted thought that may aid in leading him to a criminal over making his own tea, or getting his own phone out of his jacket, or politely listening to others theorize.  He prioritizes getting to the truth as quickly as possible over patiently waiting for someone else to tell their story.  Sometimes he seems not to understand why his methods upset other people, but I wouldn't necessarily say that's due to being self-centered, it's just the result of their priorities not making sense to his logical brain.  One could even argue that from his perspective, maybe they are being selfish by getting in the way of him stopping a killer for the sake of their own ego, feelings, or desires.  Someone else could die.

 

What he doesn't do, I think, is prioritize his own life or well-being over that of those closest to him, or even really over that of strangers.  He works for the greater good and I think it's clear that for the most part, when the chips are down, he does whatever it takes to save another human being from harm.

 

There's Mycroft's question at the end of ASiB: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective.  What might we deduce about his heart?"

 

There are many possible answers to that question.  But for me, Sherlock's selflessness is exactly what it pointed to.  A major difference between a scientist/philosopher and a detective is that detective work demands action and interaction.  Scientists and philosophers study and theorize; detectives do.  If Sherlock wanted, he could hole up and occupy his mind with study and theories and lab experiments, which he often does.  There are innumerable ways in which he could apply his brilliance.  But I think that he's driven by a much deeper desire to use his abilities in a way that directly helps other people.  And I think there is an inherent selflessness indicated in that.  He doesn't even really want to accept money or credit for it, and I don't think that's just because he enjoys "the game".

 

I mean, in the "Sherlock" universe, if I needed help, who would I most trust to defend my life when they may not even know me and have absolutely nothing invested?

 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Ow,

Thanks for putting all those.

 

That is exactly how I view Sherlock and why I love his character so much, feel the need to find a forum to share it, and choose him over everyone else despite him being not the most pleasant person around, not and never in ordinary way, and he never feels the need to justify himself, which makes it even more fascinating for me, sometimes make me question myself too because I constantly feel the need to defend him and feel a bit frustrated that he is often misunderstood because he is different.

Not saying he is flawless, a saint or doesn't have questionable quality, but to me, he is so selfless in his own way.

 

But I would never able to describe it in the way you did, Artemis.

 

So thank you!

[Carol the Dabbler]

That's all quite true from our perspective. But I doubt very much that Sherlock would see his actions as selfless -- merely logical.

[gerry]

I wonder how much of the general population would find it selfless? There's a reason why social norms exist and why people don't behave the way Sherlock does. John was right when telling Sherlock how he treated Molly re: the gay boyfriend in TGG was in no way kind.

 

There are many times when Sherlock could achieve his objective while also abiding social norms. He just doesn't want to.

[Boton]

That's what makes Sherlock Holmes (in most incarnations, but especially in this one) such an effective character, IMO.  Social norms are important; they are why we don't get into fist fights in the grocery store and stuff like that.  But it is interesting and fun to watch someone who is willing to skirt back and forth over the edge of a social norm, doing things a little outside the expected way in order to get the job done and not really caring about the impact on others.  He doesn't want to obey the norms, and he doesn't always, and that is a ton of fun to watch.

 

Question that popped up in saying that:  I've always thought that Sherlock was mostly aping Mycroft's ability to be dispassionate and disconnected from others, such that dispassionate behavior actually is Mycroft's personality (and is why he is brilliant at his job), but it is more of an act for Sherlock.  I wonder how much of the "not understanding social norms" is a behavior he is trying on after growing up with Eurus?

[gerry]

Except here many seem to believe the way he behaves is a good thing to the point of calling it selfless. I find Sherlock interesting but I certainly don't watch him and consider it fun watching how he behaves. I would never want to be on the receiving end.

 

When was Mycroft shown not adopting social norms? I find him polite actually most of the time even though his tone can be very condescending. I think the only time I can remember him being rude was to Mrs Hudson when he told her to shut up.

[Boton]

Oh, I think the way Sherlock behaves is a good thing too.   :D  I don't know that I think it is selfless, but I don't think it is always completely selfish, either.  I have a great deal of fun watching how he behaves - he gets to say all those things that I'm thinking most of the time and won't let myself say because of politeness and social norms.  The fact that he gets away with it is just so much fun to watch!

 

I don't mean that Mycroft doesn't adopt social norms; if anything, Mycroft is the most aware of social norms and protocols of any of the characters. I think that his natural personality is to hold himself above and apart from the way other people feel about things; he prefers distance over interpersonal connection. That's just his personality, and that's what I'd expect from anyone who joins a social club (the Diogenes) that is based on not being at all social.  I think he's comfortable being that way, whereas I think attempts to remain above the fray of human interaction are more foreign to Sherlock.  

 

I think that's what Artemis was saying.  Sherlock is a pirate -- sailing just outside the "law" (the norms), getting things done that otherwise would not be, but more comfortable fully immersing himself in the rough and tumble of life, even if he is a bit rude and rough when he does.  Mycroft is the ultimate diplomat, but he is more the scientist or philosopher; he would never be a pirate.

[J.P.]

I'm not 100% sure about Mycroft. If he was so dedicated to keep his little bro away from "sentiment & co", he had to be a role model himself. I don't mean he's in fact a party animal in disguise, but the extremity of his attitude may come from being forced into that model role, and probably also from the impact Victor's death and it's aftermath had on him. He is as much made by Eurus as Sherlock, except he knew all the time what had happened.

[Pseudonym]

He is a party animal. He's a podium dancer on the weekends. 

[Boton]

He is a party animal. He's a podium dancer on the weekends. 

 

Cosign.   :D

[Arcadia]

Cosecant. :p

 

What he doesn't do, I think, is prioritize his own life or well-being over that of those closest to him, or even really over that of strangers.  He works for the greater good and I think it's clear that for the most part, when the chips are down, he does whatever it takes to save another human being from harm.

This. I don't think "selfish" is usually a word I would apply to Sherlock even at his worst. Rude, arrogant, petty, cold, ruthless, lazy ... yes, yes, yes, but selfish, not so much. And there's always a sense that those other things are primarily for show, a façade he puts on to protect himself. It's never been clear in my mind if that's because it's the way he's written, or if it's more due to the actor portraying him. As much as I loved Jeremy Brett's Holmes, I don't recall ever thinking he was horribly vulnerable underneath all that bluster, the way I do with BC's Sherlock.

 

 

Question that popped up in saying that:  I've always thought that Sherlock was mostly aping Mycroft's ability to be dispassionate and disconnected from others, such that dispassionate behavior actually is Mycroft's personality (and is why he is brilliant at his job), but it is more of an act for Sherlock.  I wonder how much of the "not understanding social norms" is a behavior he is trying on after growing up with Eurus?

 

According to Mycroft, every decision Sherlock's ever made has to do with Eurus. I hope he's wrong about that; I hope some element of "I made me" is true. Let's just assume Myc is exaggerating a bit, shall we?

[Artemis]

This. I don't think "selfish" is usually a word I would apply to Sherlock even at his worst. Rude, arrogant, petty, cold, ruthless, lazy ... yes, yes, yes, but selfish, not so much. And there's always a sense that those other things are primarily for show, a façade he puts on to protect himself. It's never been clear in my mind if that's because it's the way he's written, or if it's more due to the actor portraying him. As much as I loved Jeremy Brett's Holmes, I don't recall ever thinking he was horribly vulnerable underneath all that bluster, the way I do with BC's Sherlock.

^ Same.

 

According to Mycroft, every decision Sherlock's ever made has to do with Eurus. I hope he's wrong about that; I hope some element of "I made me" is true. Let's just assume Myc is exaggerating a bit, shall we?

^ Same again. I kind of hated that entire line of reasoning, to be honest.

[Pseudonym]

I hate it too, it's like Sherlock isn't real at all.

 

I love those characters that seem really cocky and arrogant but the more you know them the more you see it covers vulnerability. I've come across 'em in quite a few fandoms and they are always my favourites, especially when you first start to suspect they might not be quite what they seem. I think Sherlock is cocky and arrogant, it's not an act, but there is also a lot more to him and layers he keeps hidden. 

[Arcadia]

And he enjoys shocking people, I think. Although I may be saying that only because I know real people who are that way. Some are jerks, but most of them are rather fun to be around ... if you bring the right attitude with you.

[Van Buren Supernova]

He is a party animal. He's a podium dancer on the weekends.

 

I believe his costume must be quite elaborate and showing some belly. I know there is a reason why he checks on that after exercise. Need to keep that presentable?

 

 

Let's just assume Myc is exaggerating a bit, shall we?

Never doubt that.

Both brothers and their sister have flair for being dramatic.

[Pseudonym]

Exactly.