Introverts, how is your day?

[SherlockedCAMPer]

That makes sense. 
I think my parents are worried about it coming across as favouritism if they pick someone as primary. And to complicate matters, my brothers are only my half brothers (not my dad's) so that makes things more awkward too.

With that being the case, I’d have you as his secondary and possibly have them go primary/secondary on your mom. It may be time for a family meeting to discuss that and use future dates such as “Dad, in 20-30 years, if something happens and you’re not able to make your medical decision, how should we do it?”

[Pseudonym]

Oh, they don't need convincing, they're the ones who keep bringing it up, but they can't seem to make a final decision. I've said I'll do it myself or share with my brothers but they're still um-ing and ah-ing. Ah well, fingers crossed they decide soon!

[Carol the Dabbler]

12 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

There are a lot of discussions about the 'power of attorney' too. You guys ever had to do that?

I see that y'all were discussing this while I was writing my reply below.  Or actually, looks like I didn't see this page.  I'll let my reply stand, even though a good bit of it may be superfluous by now.

Oh, good point.  It was easy for us, because right after Daddy died, Mom's eyes started going bad.  So it was actually her idea for my brother (who lives next door) to be able to sign financial things for her.  And while she was at it, she gave him medical PoA too.  So now we don't need to go through the hassle of getting her declared incompetent.  (Not that anyone would question it at this point.)

You might want to have a talk with your Mom about them giving you their PoA "just in case."  It's my impression that married couples generally name each other, with their offspring only as alternates (in case of their death or incapacity).  But it sounds like your Mom is sufficiently worried about your Dad's mental state that she would prefer to have you and/or your brother as first PoA, rather than your Dad.  Hopefully whatever reason she comes up with would convince him to have you guys too, so then you don't need to worry about either of them.

It's my impression that a person who has given someone their PoA can still sign things themselves, so there needn't be any difference at first, only later on, as needed.

I know nothing about such laws in the UK, so you should of course talk to an attorney first (i.e., without your parents knowing), explain your concerns, and ask for advice on how to proceed.

[Arcadia]

Yep, here at least, my Mom can still sign stuff even though I have PoA. I let her do it when she can.

My parents consulted an eldercare lawyer, and that took care of any indecision because she told them what to do, and why, and how. (Of course, they didn't have to take her advice, but at the rates she charged they would have been rather silly not to.... )

At any rate, she told them proximity was more important than birth order, which is why I ended up as primary PoA even though I'm the youngest. I know my oldest sibling was upset by that, but since the advice came from a lawyer, instead of simply being my parent's "whim", it took some of the sting out of it. So that's my advice … get your parents to hire a lawyer and put the blame for any "controversial" actions on him/her.

 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Actually I have never heard of PoA before, all I know is something like nomination, but that is related more to insurance stuff.

@parents getting more vulnerable is always heartbreaking for me as well. The most is when they are still trying to protect you and put you above their own happiness despite that, like my parents. Being a good parent is probably the only genuine true altruistic act. Maybe that's why I don't dare to be one. 

[Pseudonym]

My parents are trying to get it sorted, so I'm glad there's no need for me to convince them. I've said I'll do it myself or share it with my brothers, whatever they want. I think I'm the one who's easiest for them to talk to, possibly because I'm the girl. I thought my eldest brother would be best suited, since he's a doctor and will understand the medical side of things better, but he lives 100s of miles away and apparently refuses to discuss things involving death (which for a doc seems really backwards). My middle brother can be a bit self-absorbed though he'd never admit it. If the three of us shared it equally, which is possible here, there's no way we'd agree. 

They have talked it over with a solicitor who outlined the options, but the decision comes down to my parents so there wasn't really much advice on that front. I suspect it will fall to me. I might not be the closest distance wise, though there's not a huge amount in it, but I am the closest relationship wise (again possibly due to being a girl).  

16 minutes ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

@parents getting more vulnerable is always heartbreaking for me as well. The most is when they are still trying to protect you and put you above their own happiness despite that, like my parents. Being a good parent is probably the only genuine true altruistic act. Maybe that's why I don't dare to be one. 

Yup, ditto. I find my cats too much responsibility at times, no way could I handle a kid.

[Carol the Dabbler]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

she told them proximity was more important than birth order, which is why I ended up as primary PoA even though I'm the youngest.

Same with our family.  My youngest brother lives next door to Mom -- can't get much closer than that -- and at the time the papers were drawn up, I was in California.

[Van Buren Supernova]

On another topic,  how you do guys..uhmm... behave (not sure if it's the correct impression XD) when you are feeling bad?

Bad as in.. maybe, sad? I feel bad for someone because something bad happens to them, and it's also for selfish reason because it affects me too. But mostly, everything lumps together that results in multiple feels like anger, bad, and maybe sad.

When in that condition, I still not sure what to do.  Feel horrible, but there is almost no way I would talk to someone,  because I don't see the point. Contrary to common advice, I don't feel relieved when I talk about my troubles, as it would only remind me and amplifies it, and now I have to cope with how people would react which I don't wish to. Even if they can offer me helpful advices, somehow I don't find it useful since mostly I already know 'what is the best to do', it's the DOING that is difficult, not knowing. I think I can very well advice myself. So, most time, I retract in dark corner for a while when I'm feeling bad. Yet I notice that at these times I feel more like texting my friends and asking about old times, but the thought of them wanting to know how I am too stop me short and push me into avoiding them until laterrrrr, when I finally feel better. 

That is how I behave, don't feel good, it's quite a torture to be honest, but can't change it. And can't change the way I sympathize with that person as well. What I did was staring blankly and couldn't speak a word, couldn't give a hug, didn't shed a tear. I just.. stand there despite how bad I felt for him and how much I wanted to show that it hurt me too. Eventually I managed to express it better through text, after the person had gone away, but that is also constrained with self restriction that it probably sound less heart-y than Hallmark card.

 

[Pseudonym]

When I get in a state, whether it's feeling sad, or furious, or depressed I have to sleep. I find it sort of reboots the system and I think about it clearer afterwards. But no, I don't talk about my problems either, I tend to shut down and stop talking to anybody... and I'm also shite at expressing sympathy/empathy, I stumble through it but usually feel I've messed it up a bit... and sometimes I just don't get it and am pretty sure I'm missing some nuance. 

There's this scene in Mr Robot where he gets home from work to an empty flat. Feeds his pet fish, which is the only thing he feels connected to, and then squeezes into a corner on the floor next to a cabinet and starts sobbing. The voice over is a monotone, "I hate it when I can't hold in my loneliness." I don't go home and cry but that scene always resonates with me. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

The original bad feeling is bad enough, but then I tend to tell myself that I shouldn't feel that way, which only makes it ten times worse.  So I try to remember to give myself permission to feel sad or guilty or whatever it is.  I tell myself something like "Well of course you feel bad about that -- just imagine what sort of horrible heartless person would *not* feel bad about it!"  And that generally helps.

[Pseudonym]

My cod liver oil capsule burst in my mouth. SO GROSS. 😩

[Arcadia]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 4:27 AM, Van Buren Supernova said:

On another topic,  how you do guys..uhmm... behave (not sure if it's the correct impression XD) when you are feeling bad?

Bad as in.. maybe, sad? I feel bad for someone because something bad happens to them, and it's also for selfish reason because it affects me too. But mostly, everything lumps together that results in multiple feels like anger, bad, and maybe sad.

When in that condition, I still not sure what to do.  Feel horrible, but there is almost no way I would talk to someone,  because I don't see the point. Contrary to common advice, I don't feel relieved when I talk about my troubles, as it would only remind me and amplifies it, and now I have to cope with how people would react which I don't wish to. Even if they can offer me helpful advices, somehow I don't find it useful since mostly I already know 'what is the best to do', it's the DOING that is difficult, not knowing. I think I can very well advice myself. So, most time, I retract in dark corner for a while when I'm feeling bad. Yet I notice that at these times I feel more like texting my friends and asking about old times, but the thought of them wanting to know how I am too stop me short and push me into avoiding them until laterrrrr, when I finally feel better. 

That is how I behave, don't feel good, it's quite a torture to be honest, but can't change it. And can't change the way I sympathize with that person as well. What I did was staring blankly and couldn't speak a word, couldn't give a hug, didn't shed a tear. I just.. stand there despite how bad I felt for him and how much I wanted to show that it hurt me too. Eventually I managed to express it better through text, after the person had gone away, but that is also constrained with self restriction that it probably sound less heart-y than Hallmark card.

 

I think for me it depends on what's causing the distress. I learned awhile ago to "vent" … that is, talk about what's bothering me with someone I trust … and that usually relieves the pressure. But a recent circumstance showed me that I also retain that instinct to retreat from everyone when I, personally, have been emotionally hurt. So I'm just giving myself some time to get over it, because I know I will, eventually … and if I don't, I know it's time to see a counselor. I find things to keep me busy, so I don't brood about it.

On the other hand, both my siblings are going through some tough times right now, and I hurt for them, but I have a tendency not to let other people's problems affect me too much. Not very nurturing of me, but I've long since accepted it's the way I am; I'm more vulnerable than most people around me realize, I've discovered, and no one will protect me but myself. So I find myself distancing myself from other's problems. If they need some practical help that I can provide, I'lll do it; if they need an ear, I'll loan mine. But they won't get a lot of hugs and tears and reassurances from me; it's not the way I'm built.

Don't know if that helps you, VBS, but I do believe you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of others, and if that means putting some distance between yourself and others, so be it.

[Carol the Dabbler]

10 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

... you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of others....

Amen!  I recently heard someone make the analogy of being on an airplane when the oxygen masks are needed.  They always tell you to put on your own mask before you help others with theirs -- because if you pass out due to lack of oxygen, then who's going to help them?

[Pseudonym]

This is similar to my reaction to someone being upset. 

 

[J.P.]

On 7/5/2018 at 10:27 AM, Van Buren Supernova said:

On another topic,  how you do guys..uhmm... behave (not sure if it's the correct impression XD) when you are feeling bad?

I'm exactly the same. Maybe it's because my mother usually reacts with panic, which isn't particularly helpful. I also retire to a dark corner. Talking to people is mostly just additional stress.

Still, I hope you don't mind:

[Caya]

On 7/5/2018 at 2:00 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

I know nothing about such laws in the UK, so you should of course talk to an attorney first (i.e., without your parents knowing), explain your concerns, and ask for advice on how to proceed.

Chiming in to second that - but maybe you don't need an attorney (and their billing hours). I became legal guardian for my aunt (on account of her Alzheimer's) a couple years ago, and here in Austria, there is a registered association that helps private persons with that. You can go there and ask questions, or attend a training that schools you how to handle the legal side of things (you have to submit a yearly report to the county court, for starters). Training cost 18€ cover charge, coming in to ask questions was free. Maybe there's a similar institution in the UK?

From my personal experience, I'd take the step sooner if I were in the same situation again (I hesitated for months both because I'm not that good at legalese and also because it felt so, well, wrong, a reversal). But I can tell you that dealing with doctors/clerks/etc. as "I'm here for [my aunt], I'm her legal guardian" is a lot less hassle than "she's my aunt, well, actually, godmother, er ..." (we were not related by blood, not that either of us cared, and she had no kids or close relatives). It might be less problematic when you're trying to speak for your parents, but in my experience having some legal form of authority puts bureaucrats at ease - now they have a framework they're familiar with, which makes their job easier, so they make things easier for you in return.

[Pseudonym]

Phew, third walk of the weekend completed, my legs feel like bloody little stumps. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

How far have you been walking?

[Pseudonym]

Today was a 13 miler up the side of a mountain. Other two walks were fairly short. Gawd the sun today made it killer, sweating so much it was running into my eyes. 😅

[Carol the Dabbler]

Ouch, I hate that!  You'd think sweat is basically salty water, same as tears -- but your eyes sure know the difference!

[Van Buren Supernova]

On 7/7/2018 at 12:56 AM, Arcadia said:

On the other hand, both my siblings are going through some tough times right now, and I hurt for them, but I have a tendency not to let other people's problems affect me too much. Not very nurturing of me, but I've long since accepted it's the way I am; I'm more vulnerable than most people around me realize, I've discovered, and no one will protect me but myself. So I find myself distancing myself from other's problems. If they need some practical help that I can provide, I'lll do it; if they need an ear, I'll loan mine. But they won't get a lot of hugs and tears and reassurances from me; it's not the way I'm built.

Don't know if that helps you, VBS, but I do believe you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of others, and if that means putting some distance between yourself and others, so be it.

I do that (distancing myself from other people's problems), most time I would shut myself unless I could help in useful way.  This time though, it is for selfish reason as it would affect me too. I'm sure the scale tip on the side of hurting for them but it's not that far from hurting with them. And that is probably what makes me feel horrible, as I hate being affected or being vulnerable. Or dependence, or anything that I can't control by my own. Or that it shakes my principle. How I wish that I don't need anyone but life is a biatch because everyone apparently needs someone. What an out of the world conclusion.

 

On 7/7/2018 at 7:38 PM, Caya said:

Chiming in to second that - but maybe you don't need an attorney (and their billing hours). I became legal guardian for my aunt (on account of her Alzheimer's) a couple years ago, and here in Austria, there is a registered association that helps private persons with that. You can go there and ask questions, or attend a training that schools you how to handle the legal side of things (you have to submit a yearly report to the county court, for starters). Training cost 18€ cover charge, coming in to ask questions was free. Maybe there's a similar institution in the UK?

From my personal experience, I'd take the step sooner if I were in the same situation again (I hesitated for months both because I'm not that good at legalese and also because it felt so, well, wrong, a reversal). But I can tell you that dealing with doctors/clerks/etc. as "I'm here for [my aunt], I'm her legal guardian" is a lot less hassle than "she's my aunt, well, actually, godmother, er ..." (we were not related by blood, not that either of us cared, and she had no kids or close relatives). It might be less problematic when you're trying to speak for your parents, but in my experience having some legal form of authority puts bureaucrats at ease - now they have a framework they're familiar with, which makes their job easier, so they make things easier for you in return.

Does this thing means you'd be the one making health decision for them?

I get that we would want the decision to be right, or maybe I understand incorrectly. Because regardless how I want the decision to be right, it seems so scary to hold this responsibility, and I'd prefer to share it, or not having it if there is someone more reliable, unless you distrust the other candidates. (because from your posts, it seems like it's desirable for you guys to be the one with PoA, forgive me if I'm wrong)

Because.. imagine if the decision involves life and death when the person no longer able to decide, where both scenarios are equal dilemma. 

[Pseudonym]

I don't find it desirable, but if something was going to happen to my parents and I didn't get a say in it that would be even worse. 

[Arcadia]

My parents' attorney recommended NOT sharing PoA … because if the siblings (or whoever) disagreed on what to do, it could be a long, ugly mess. One person needs to be able to act quickly, and if the others don't like his/her decisions … well, that's a separate issue. In this case, what was important, the attorney said, was to do what was best for my parents, and not what was easiest for us kids. I didn't particularly want the responsibility, but it made sense I should be the one. Although in my case I didn't have to worry about opposition from my siblings, and I consult with them all the time anyway. But I imagine it's a lot more touchy in some families.

[Caya]

13 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Does this thing means you'd be the one making health decision for them?

I get that we would want the decision to be right, or maybe I understand incorrectly. Because regardless how I want the decision to be right, it seems so scary to hold this responsibility, and I'd prefer to share it, or not having it if there is someone more reliable, unless you distrust the other candidates. (because from your posts, it seems like it's desirable for you guys to be the one with PoA, forgive me if I'm wrong)

Because.. imagine if the decision involves life and death when the person no longer able to decide, where both scenarios are equal dilemma. 

Yep, it means just that - in Austria, there is a rather fine-tunable system for legal guardianship, but since my aunt by that time was 89, frail and already deep enough in the throes of Alzheimer that she didn't remember her own age, let alone stuff like what meds she had been prescribed, I was appointed as her guardian in all affairs, including medical. And no, that's not a desirable position to be in - but the alternatives were worse (she could no longer care for her own affairs, there was literally no one else, and a state-appointed guardian would most likely have sent her to a nursing home instead of bothering to organize in-home care).

And yes, there were ugly decisions involved - like when she was diagnosed with "most likely lung cancer, but the therapy would only kill her faster, so it's up to you whether we scare her with invasive diagnostics". That's not a sentence you like to hear, and not a decision you like to make, believe me. But I loved my aunt, and so I grit my teeth and went through the options with the docs and only cried when coming back home. She cared for me as a kid, caring for her in her old age was the least I could do.

[Carol the Dabbler]

That's the sort of decision I'm not looking forward to, but at least I've thought enough about the general principles that hopefully I won't be completely blindsided.  *sigh*  One day at a time.