Episode 4.2 "The Lying Detective"

[T.o.b.y]

The only fly in the ointment is Mary's death. But I don't think they only killed her for canon reasons. I think it was something to do with trying to make John more interesting, rather than have him be eclipsed by her (maybe).

 

It wasn't just John who would have been eclipsed by Mary, it was Sherlock too and basically everyone else. Mary was just in a whole other league. I really believe she would have been a match for Euros and if she had been alive come episode 3, it would have been much harder to make the threat work without going to really dark places.

[bedelia1984]

 

The only fly in the ointment is Mary's death. But I don't think they only killed her for canon reasons. I think it was something to do with trying to make John more interesting, rather than have him be eclipsed by her (maybe).

 

It wasn't just John who would have been eclipsed by Mary, it was Sherlock too and basically everyone else. Mary was just in a whole other league. I really believe she would have been a match for Euros and if she had been alive come episode 3, it would have been much harder to make the threat work without going to really dark places.

 

 

It would have been so awesome, though, Mary vs. Eurus! I take your point though, Sherlock has to be the hero.

 

I remember Moffat once being very sneery about the idea of doing a 'girls' Sherlock where Mary and Molly solve crimes. And I thought, it's actually like a version of John and Sherlock, but Mary is at least as well up on crime and spying as Sherlock is, Molly is a doctor who probably knows more about reading dead bodies than John, they would probably actually make a better go of it! The women underestimated again. That would have been such a good show actually.

 

I think their better option for Mary was to have her leave in the night and take Rosie with her. That way the door would be left open, and they could have had their fun with Eurus, and not dealt with John as a father. Though I have already found John's moping hard to take, and it might have reached new levels if Mary had left him and taken Rosie.

[T.o.b.y]

I think their better option for Mary was to have her leave in the night and take Rosie with her.

 

If I were in charge of scripts (which you can all thank your lucky stars I am not), I would have let Mary run and the boys would not have been able to track her.

 

But... Mary would never have forgotten John and she would have kept an eye on him from afar. Can you imagine Mary when she learns her husband is being held captive by a truly ruthless Holmes sibling? Or drowning in a well? She would have come back and kicked more than Euros' ass and I would have had to get rid of her all over again.

 

Like I said, I think we can all be glad I am not a scriptwriter. :lol:

 

 

[bedelia1984]

 

I think their better option for Mary was to have her leave in the night and take Rosie with her.

 

If I were in charge of scripts (which you can all thank your lucky stars I am not), I would have let Mary run and the boys would not have been able to track her.

 

But... Mary would never have forgotten John and she would have kept an eye on him from afar. Can you imagine Mary when she learns her husband is being held captive by a truly ruthless Holmes sibling? Or drowning in a well? She would have come back and kicked more than Euros' ass and I would have had to get rid of her all over again.

 

Like I said, I think we can all be glad I am not a scriptwriter. :lol:

 

 

 

 

Nope, I say put you in charge! I thought it was nonsense that Sherlock could track a professional spy so easily. Please. Sometimes they try so hard to make him the world's best at everything, and it just comes off as annoying. Besides, even if it was right that he could (which I don't concede) that doesn't mean it was the right thing for him to do, if he had given Mary's own wishes due consideration. Sorry, still bitter.

 

All you need is some way to have Mary tied up- either she's detained by an old enemy, or Rosie is unwell and she can't leave her. The events of TFP are over pretty quick, so it is feasible. I'd rather overlook her not showing up in time (or maybe she arrives to check in, and it has already been sorted,so she just looks on from the roof of a building, sort of like batman, and then sweeps off again), than have her dead.

[T.o.b.y]

All you need is some way to have Mary tied up- either she's detained by an old enemy, or Rosie is unwell and she can't leave her. The events of TFP are over pretty quick, so it is feasible. I'd rather overlook her not showing up in time (or maybe she arrives to check in, and it has already been sorted,so she just looks on from the roof of a building, sort of like batman, and then sweeps off again), than have her dead.

 

:lol: Or in one last post-credits scene, you'd see Mary's shadow pointing a gun at Euros in her cell...

 

But how would The Lying Detective work if Mary wasn't dead? If the point of the Smith case is to "save" John, what would Sherlock be saving him from? He'd hardly be that devastated by her disappearance - and he would be mad at her, not Sherlock, even if Sherlock had been unable to find her.

 

Since I am mainly a Sherlock fan, I want him to be the center of everything and don't appreciate it much when he is overshadowed, so in the end, I think it's good that Mary left the stage. I don't even mind that she died (I just think it was too predictable), I mind the way they wrote her death scene. Couldn't it have been, I dunno, clever?

 

 

 

[bedelia1984]

 

All you need is some way to have Mary tied up- either she's detained by an old enemy, or Rosie is unwell and she can't leave her. The events of TFP are over pretty quick, so it is feasible. I'd rather overlook her not showing up in time (or maybe she arrives to check in, and it has already been sorted,so she just looks on from the roof of a building, sort of like batman, and then sweeps off again), than have her dead.

 

:lol: Or in one last post-credits scene, you'd see Mary's shadow pointing a gun at Euros in her cell...

 

But how would The Lying Detective work if Mary wasn't dead? If the point of the Smith case is to "save" John, what would Sherlock be saving him from? He'd hardly be that devastated by her disappearance - and he would be mad at her, not Sherlock, even if Sherlock had been unable to find her.

 

Since I am mainly a Sherlock fan, I want him to be the center of everything and don't appreciate it much when he is overshadowed, so in the end, I think it's good that Mary left the stage. I don't even mind that she died (I just think it was too predictable), I mind the way they wrote her death scene. Couldn't it have been, I dunno, clever?

 

 

Yes, but I always figured that Sherlock could somehow help Mary escape so no-one could find her, probably using Mycroft as a buffer, so even he doesn't know what happens. Send her on one of Mycroft's missions maybe? (though in that scenario, Rosie stays with John of course). And Sherlock doesn't really need to fake/really go on a downward spiral just for John, he could also be obsessed enough with taking down CS to do it, (also, any excuse for 'pretending' to be a junkie) , you know to place himself in the hospital and trap him? And he and John could still have a fight, just maybe not quite as brutal, and still have the same lovely conversation at the end. I don't think the extremes the first episode went to were totally necessary. Sure, they added to the drama of the excellent second episode, but I would have still enjoyed it had it been a tad less dramatic.

 

Yeah, at the end of the day it is Sherlock's show, and I can get over Mary's death, but the death scene was strangely done. Maybe the tenderhearted Moftisses were too busy crying onto their keyboards whilst writing it to make it seem believable? I think I read that Mark Gatiss said that episode made him cry (I think it was that one?) but it totally didn't make me cry, sorry. And I liked Mary!

 

I'm not totally mad that they botched the death scene a bit, because it demonstrates to me that this isn't the kind of show where major character deaths are natural, and I don't want them to be a natural part of the show, so hopefully they realise scenes like that are not their forte and never do another one.

 

ETA: Oh and about Mary potentially taking out Eurus, would the fact that Eurus is Sherlock's sister give her some pause? It might have killed the Sherlock/ Mary friendship which would have been sad. Maybe she's in a better place, after all.

[T.o.b.y]

 

ETA: Oh and about Mary potentially taking out Eurus, would the fact that Eurus is Sherlock's sister give her some pause?

 

I don't think so. Mary pointed a gun at Sherlock himself when she thought she had to. If she felt Euros had to go, she would make that happen and nobody, not even Mycroft, would ever be the wiser.

 

 

[Pseudonym]

I think they made Mary too super-powered. Mary is better than Sherlock. Eurus is better than Sherlock. Mycroft is better than Sherlock. Magnussen outsmarted Sherlock. Is this suddenly a show about the village idiot? Sherlock's whole appeal is his brains, his ability to out think everyone else, but in making everyone smarter (or more skilled) than him, even John's wife, it lessens him. :(

[Caya]

TV Tropes calls this The Worf Effect. Usually applied to fighters but I think it fits here as well.

[T.o.b.y]

I think they made Mary too super-powered. Mary is better than Sherlock. Eurus is better than Sherlock. Mycroft is better than Sherlock. Magnussen outsmarted Sherlock. Is this suddenly a show about the village idiot? Sherlock's whole appeal is his brains, his ability to out think everyone else, but in making everyone smarter (or more skilled) than him, even John's wife, it lessens him. :(

 

Yes, that's the biggest problem with the series in my eyes. Which is why I am glad they (potentially) ended it now.

 

But in the end, who came out on top? Sherlock. Mary is dead. Euros is insane and incarcerated for life. Mycroft is lonely and nobody respects him any more. Magnussen is dead too.

 

But Sherlock is alive, he is happy, he has friends and cases and even a goddaughter. Maybe in the end, the message is it takes more than just brains to be a hero? 'Cause I'd like that, being nothing but an ordinary goldfish myself, after all.

 

[Pseudonym]

I'm always slow with these things, so it might have been posted elsewhere, but if not enjoy. 

 

[Redbeard]

The thing is, I don't actually want her in it more, I just don't see the point of her if she's not. It didn't really add anything to John's character, we're aware he's a father now, but if we never see him being a father then why bother introducing a baby at all?

 

Because Moftiss are setting the stage for their next big franchise:  "Rosie Watson, P.I." debuting on the BBC in 2037 (about the same time as Sherlock Season 5) 

[gerry]

I liked Mary ok in the two episodes before they made her an assassin. Then it just became a bit ridiculous with her. There was way too much focus on her in season 4 for my taste.

[Arcadia]

 

Yes, I'm puzzled by the inclusion of Rosie too. Maybe to honor Mary's existence?

Maybe they couldn't resist giving the the episode a title The Sign of Three. And the needed a trio for it. On the other hand, couldn't they name the episode The Sign of Two? :P

 

 

​Or "The Wedding."

 

 

The only fly in the ointment is Mary's death. But I don't think they only killed her for canon reasons. I think it was something to do with trying to make John more interesting, rather than have him be eclipsed by her (maybe).

 

It wasn't just John who would have been eclipsed by Mary, it was Sherlock too and basically everyone else. Mary was just in a whole other league. I really believe she would have been a match for Euros and if she had been alive come episode 3, it would have been much harder to make the threat work without going to really dark places.

 

 

Eh, just leaving her at home with Rosie would have done it for me.

 

Since I am mainly a Sherlock fan, I want him to be the center of everything and don't appreciate it much when he is overshadowed, so in the end, I think it's good that Mary left the stage. I don't even mind that she died (I just think it was too predictable), I mind the way they wrote her death scene. Couldn't it have been, I dunno, clever?

 

At the risk of sounding like Eurus: Ex-ACT-lyyyy!

 

 

I think they made Mary too super-powered. Mary is better than Sherlock. Eurus is better than Sherlock. Mycroft is better than Sherlock. Magnussen outsmarted Sherlock. Is this suddenly a show about the village idiot? Sherlock's whole appeal is his brains, his ability to out think everyone else, but in making everyone smarter (or more skilled) than him, even John's wife, it lessens him. :(

 

Yes, that's the biggest problem with the series in my eyes. Which is why I am glad they (potentially) ended it now.

 

But in the end, who came out on top? Sherlock. Mary is dead. Euros is insane and incarcerated for life. Mycroft is lonely and nobody respects him any more. Magnussen is dead too.

 

But Sherlock is alive, he is happy, he has friends and cases and even a goddaughter. Maybe in the end, the message is it takes more than just brains to be a hero? 'Cause I'd like that, being nothing but an ordinary goldfish myself, after all.

 

I wish I would learn to take note of where I read these things ... but yeah, Moftiss said that was it. Finding his heart makes him a better detective. Although now I'm wondering if we see any evidence of that in the show. His most brilliant deduction in S4, imo, was the one shown in the video just above, when he was high as a kite.

 

LOVE that video, by the way. Almost as much as I love the scene it's talking about!

[BLS_Pro]

 

I wish I would learn to take note of where I read these things ... but yeah, Moftiss said that was it. Finding his heart makes him a better detective. Although now I'm wondering if we see any evidence of that in the show. His most brilliant deduction in S4, imo, was the one shown in the video just above, when he was high as a kite.

 

LOVE that video, by the way. Almost as much as I love the scene it's talking about!

 

But Sherlock is alive, he is happy, he has friends and cases and even a goddaughter. Maybe in the end, the message is it takes more than just brains to be a hero? 'Cause I'd like that, being nothing but an ordinary goldfish myself, after all.

 

As much as I am gobsmacked by the astronomical levels of integration in S4, I agree that Sherlock had a dearth of explained deductions like the one referenced above (love that video too).  That is one of the missed opportunities of TFP.  Sherlock didn't deduce any of the reveals.  He didn't knock down his walls of repressed memories on his own (imagine what the director and editors could have done with sequences like that) etc.  He is spoon-fed everything by -others-.  He doesn't do any of the work -about- himself by himself.  It is all done for him:

 

Oh, btw you had a sister.

Oh, btw you didn't have a dog

Oh, btw you had a best friend

Oh, btw your sister killed him

Oh, btw you blocked all of this out

Oh, btw ... etc

 

Sigh.

[J.P.]

Yupp. :(

[bedelia1984]

...

I wish I would learn to take note of where I read these things ... but yeah, Moftiss said that was it. Finding his heart makes him a better detective. Although now I'm wondering if we see any evidence of that in the show. His most brilliant deduction in S4, imo, was the one shown in the video just above, when he was high as a kite.

...

 

I think they only showed it just at the end, when he took a kind approach to Eurus despite the stress of the situation- that when he saw her through eyes of compassion rather than cold judgement, he was also able to also see the way to finding out John's whereabouts. It was all a bit on the nose, though.

 

I think part of their point about this episode is that it was Sherlock becoming the man he always could be, and if we were to see him again solving a crime from the beginning, only then would you see how both his heart and his mind together would solve a crime. Which really makes me want to see a new season!

[Surelock]

Tbh I don't see how Sherlock 'finding his heart' or whatever made him a better detective. Being a detective is all about deductions. How did his heart help him with that? When Sherlock figured out the code to solving Euros' puzzle at the end he was using his brain not his heart. I would say his heart motivated him but I don't think it actually expanded his deductive abilities or anything like that.

[Arcadia]

Tbh I don't see it either, I'm just taking the Mofftisses word for it. :P

 

I think what it does make him, though, is a better person, and we have seen bits and pieces of that.

[Pseudonym]

I miss the old version of Sherlock. I liked him being a bit callous and clueless. I always prefer the younger freer version of things, it's like in The Lion King, for me by far the best part is when he is grown and living a carefree bachelor life with Simone and Pumba, before Nala butts in and drags him back home. Season one and two are Sherlock's Simone and Pumba years. ;)

[Arcadia]

You mean, you miss the young version of Sherlock! :d I agree, I've said many times I wish they'd kept to their original plan of making him in his twenties at first. But I guess it would have been too hard to sustain over the years. But I loved all the bounciness and sass, I hope they can find a way to bring some of that back. Have him hop over another railing, and giggle with John again. Yeah, giggles. Definitely need to hear them giggle again.

[Pseudonym]

Walk directly over a table, shoot the wall, sulk... hell even going to a normal crime scene and being brilliant would be refreshing at this point. 

[Redbeard]

You mean, you miss the young version of Sherlock! :D I agree, I've said many times I wish they'd kept to their original plan of making him in his twenties at first. But I guess it would have been too hard to sustain over the years. But I loved all the bounciness and sass, I hope they can find a way to bring some of that back. Have him hop over another railing, and giggle with John again. Yeah, giggles. Definitely need to hear them giggle again.

 

"Bounciness and sass", that's funny.  The one scene that springs to mind reading that phrase was his exit out of the museum in...was it the Great Game?  The way he took the uniform off and skipped through the door.  Pure sass lol.  I love that guy. 

[Pseudonym]

Okay, this makes me feel a bit better. It's like a soothing balm  :lol:

 

[T.o.b.y]

I had an interesting experience yesterday... My DVDs finally came (yay!) and as usual, when that happens, my husband agreed to watch each episode with me exactly once. He's not a Sherlock fan by any means, even though his family did introduce me to the series (more by accident than anything else) and has never read Doyle. He likes crime and detective fiction, but the kind that is about the cases, not the "about a detective" kind. So anyway, to please me and probably out of a little curiosity as to what it is the wife gets so excited about, each episode gets one viewing.

 

We saw The Six Thatchers first and he watched it just like he usually does - with, lets call it, polite interest. Then yesterday, I turned on The Lying Detective and after the first minute, the living room went completely silent. It was eerie. He sat there, leaning forward, trying to catch every word and when John said "it is what it is and what it is is shit", he exclaimed: "That's good! Yeah, that's really good." After that, not another word. I asked later whether he liked the episode and he just kind of shrugged, so I didn't probe any further.

 

It is a pretty powerful bit of television. I found myself properly enticed too even though it was the third time I saw it. I think it might become a favorite with time. Mary's ghost bothers me less and less too.