Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[bedelia1984]

This has the video with the actors about the ILY you scene. I think someone asked for the reference.

 

http://jeni2727.tumblr.com/post/155957319627/alphielj-this-played-after-the-tfp-i-saw-a-few

 

Thank you, I never thought I would see the actual footage, I thought it was just words from a text-based interview.

 

Mark is in particularly crafty form when he says 'you'll never quite know'...

[T.o.b.y]

 

Please forgive my ignorance but what is TAB?

 

The Abominable Bride, the Sherlock Christmas Special.

[Slithytove]

I like the idea that the whole episode is an exercise in existentialism.  Unfortunately, given that the show has proved to be a massive cash cow, I can't see the BBC funding anything on that basis.  I think it is rather like Dr Who - complicated and interesting when it works, contradictory and unconvincing when it doesn't.

 

Thinking about the major villains - Moriarty, CAM, Smith and Eurus - most of them seem quite insane.  Only CAM was obviously sane, although creepy and unpleasant.  He was also the only one interested in solely in power and wealth, not murder.  I still find it a bit odd that he was the one Sherlock considered worthy of shooting.  The other three are evidently psychopaths, though I don't think psychiatrists use that term now.  They lack empathy and remorse and are interested in other people only insofar as they can be manipulated in the psychopath's own interests.  Smith put it pretty well when he spoke about turning people into things.  People suffering from anti social personality disorder do seem to regard others, even their own close relatives, as objects.  It's hard to imagine that Eurus is pining for Sherlock's love, particularly as she murdered his best friend, tried to burn down the family home (presumably, given the "RIP Sherlock" notes, with him inside it) and tried to force him to kill someone he loved.  I can't imagine that all Moriarty wanted was a big cuddle, and I can't believe that that was what Eurus wanted either. 

 

 If you think about real life criminal psychopaths. e.g. Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, the Yorkshire Ripper, they're pretty terrifying.  I can't honestly say I disagree with Mycroft's decision to keep Eurus incarcerated.  Smith would obviously face life imprisonment too, and it would be the best place for Moriarty as well if he wasn't dead.  You can't "cure" a psychopath - it's just who they are, probably for some as yet undefined genetic or neurological reason.  I do think it is interesting that Moriarty, who seemed the most exuberantly mad (the voice and the weird facial expressions), was the one who had turned his own personality disorder into the basis of a worldwide criminal enterprise. 

 

To go off on a tangent, those gravestones puzzled me.  Who has a cemetery in their garden?  And why would the headstones have the wrong dates?  Were all the Holmes family deeply peculiar, to have such a creepy front lawn?

[Arcadia]

Someone found the lyrics to Eurus' song. Still no indication of whether it's an original song (i.e., written for the show), a traditional song, or what on earth it means....

 

 

I that am lost, oh who will find me?

Deep down below the old beech tree

Help succor me now the east winds blow

Sixteen by six, brother, and under we go!

 

Be not afraid to walk in the shade

Save one, save all, come try!

My steps - five by seven

Life is closer to Heaven

Look down, with dark gaze, from on high.

 

Before he was gone - right back over my (h)ill

Who now will find him?

Why, nobody will

Doom shall I bring to him, I that am queen

Lost forever, nine by nineteen.

 

Without your love he’ll be gone before

Save pity for strangers, show love the door

My soul seek the shade of my willow’s bloom

Inside, brother mine–

Let Death make a room.

[J.P.]

Re Mycroft:

What I meant is that I would like to see that moment when he changes from the usual Mycroft/MI6 mode into I'm-scared-beepless state. We've been discussing why he cracked, and I agree with all of it, but in the scene it's kind of too quick, too easy, like he gave up without fight.

[Pseudonym]

Yea, I would have liked that. It would have been good to see a bit of BAMF SIS Mycroft so that when he did crack it was more shocking. Like I said before I can't see him being that affected by the thought of shooting someone or seeing someone shoot themselves.

[bedelia1984]

Someone found the lyrics to Eurus' song. Still no indication of whether it's an original song (i.e., written for the show), a traditional song, or what on earth it means....

 

 

I that am lost, oh who will find me?

Deep down below the old beech tree

Help succor me now the east winds blow

Sixteen by six, brother, and under we go!

 

Be not afraid to walk in the shade

Save one, save all, come try!

My steps - five by seven

Life is closer to Heaven

Look down, with dark gaze, from on high.

 

Before he was gone - right back over my (h)ill

Who now will find him?

Why, nobody will

Doom shall I bring to him, I that am queen

Lost forever, nine by nineteen.

 

Without your love he’ll be gone before

Save pity for strangers, show love the door

My soul seek the shade of my willow’s bloom

Inside, brother mine–

Let Death make a room.

 

It seems like it definitely relates to the graveyard (life is closer to heaven), being underground, and the dates on the stones proving to be some kind of co-ordinates.

 

You know, even if Sherlock couldn't solve the clues as a child, I'm surprised his mother or Mycroft couldn't do it.

 

The line 'save pity for strangers, show love the door'- probably has a coded meaning, but I can't help reading it as her knowing she was going to traumatise her brother for life, and gloating about it.

[Pseudonym]

I wonder if everyone knew that Eurus had done something to Victor, or they just thought he was missing and that Sherlock was being paranoid when he said Eurus had done it. Maybe they only realised it was likely she had actually done something after she set fire to the house. 

 

And yea, I don't really get why they had weird gravestones around the house either.

[bedelia1984]

Yes, there are facts we don't know, like who were Victor's parents, and how did they react? Usually in a case like that people don't give up easily. Did the police search the Holmes land and house?

[Arcadia]

I'm thinking Mummy etc. couldn't decipher the code because they didn't know it existed, not because they couldn't figure it out. Eurus was extra clever, but still a child ... she wouldn't necessarily know that she had to tell people they were supposed to solve the riddle.

I'm having a hard time believing Eurus was just looking for a hug, too. It wouldn't mean anything to her. From a narrative standpoint, the hug needs to be about Sherlock's victory, not about her. Alas, right now I'm leaning to the conclusion that it is simply coincidence that she was in a "reachable" state when he found her. I would prefer it be something he did that rendered her vulnerable for a moment. But if he did, I still haven't figured out what it was.

[J.P.]

Oh, where did you find the lyrics source, Arcadia?

 

Something to brighten your day:

https://twitter.com/Cumberbuddy/status/821647795769712641

[bedelia1984]

Some of the truth is going to depend on whether we get more episodes and she is mentioned again.

 

But to me, the logical reason that Eurus stopped is not remorse or reform, but because if Sherlock died (shot himself) the game is over, and like Moriarty, the game is what she loves. And that means she is now just biding her time, but would look forward to tormenting him again in the future.

[Arcadia]

Yes, there are facts we don't know, like who were Victor's parents, and how did they react? Usually in a case like that people don't give up easily. Did the police search the Holmes land and house?

 

And this is another place where I think the viewers are simply supposed to fill in the gaps based on their own understanding of how these things work. The script doesn't need to explain about the police search and such, because we already know all that from watching a hundred other shows. So they focus on what we don't know instead, like ... how is Sherlock going to save John? We're left to assume a police search didn't find anything.

 

Having said that, I still think they had too much story to fit into 90 minutes, and had to trim a little more than was really good for the narrative. Rely on the audience too much to fill the gaps, and you end up with a pretty flimsy structure.

[J.P.]

Found the lyrics. It seems they come from the scene alone. Someone did the transcript and the deduction!

http://www.nextlevelescape.com.au/off-topic-sherlock-season-4-episode-3-final-problem-spoilers/

[bedelia1984]

The problem is that how the gaps are filled is really crucial to understanding the characters. Were the Holmes parents more interested in finding Victor or protecting Eurus? Was there any kind of a cover up? I think it is important, in order to understand how and why Sherlock was traumatised, in keeping with this why the body was never found (assuming they were Victor's bones, and not some other bones that Eurus placed there for effect)?

 

What I'm trying to get at is, was he traumatised because his friend disappeared, or because he somehow knew Eurus had killed him but couldn't prove it?

 

 

[J.P.]

I wonder if everyone knew that Eurus had done something to Victor, or they just thought he was missing and that Sherlock was being paranoid when he said Eurus had done it. Maybe they only realised it was likely she had actually done something after she set fire to the house. 

 

And yea, I don't really get why they had weird gravestones around the house either.

 

She started to talk about a "drowned Redbeard" so it was at least a possibility to consider. And I think she was able to drop enough hints to get the adults alarmed.

 

Did anyone of you also screamed at the monitor "use dogs, for beep's sake!", like I did? It was a similar reaction like in TBB when they didn't think of making an alphabetical list of the books. :D

 

Oh, we are soooo clever!

[Arcadia]

Oh, where did you find the lyrics source, Arcadia?

 

On Facebook, but the poster hasn't offered any source. I'll ask her again and see if I get a response.

 

Some of the truth is going to depend on whether we get more episodes and she is mentioned again.

 

But to me, the logical reason that Eurus stopped is not remorse or reform, but because if Sherlock died (shot himself) the game is over, and like Moriarty, the game is what she loves. And that means she is now just biding her time, but would look forward to tormenting him again in the future.

And I'm still having trouble thinking that ordinary logic applies to Eurus. Ooops, battery's dying, gotta run.

[bedelia1984]

 

I wonder if everyone knew that Eurus had done something to Victor, or they just thought he was missing and that Sherlock was being paranoid when he said Eurus had done it. Maybe they only realised it was likely she had actually done something after she set fire to the house. 

 

And yea, I don't really get why they had weird gravestones around the house either.

 

She started to talk about a "drowned Redbeard" so it was at least a possibility to consider. And I think she was able to drop enough hints to get the adults alarmed.

 

Did anyone of you also screamed at the monitor "use dogs, for beep's sake!", like I did? It was a similar reaction like in TBB when they didn't think of making an alphabetical list of the books. :D

 

Oh, we are soooo clever!

 

 

I would think based on the drowned Redbeard thing, they would be searching any rivers, lakes etc and wells too in the area? I suppose it could have been well hidden.

 

Dogs would have been a great idea. Maybe that's why Sherlock's subconscious brought one into his cover story?

 

 

 

 

And I'm still having trouble thinking that ordinary logic applies to Eurus. Ooops, battery's dying, gotta run.

 

 

It's a fair point. I did think you could see she started losing her enjoyment of the whole game from Molly's phone call on. I think by the time she realised the lengths Sherlock would go to for John, Mycroft and Molly, she was so jealous of his ability to form relationships and care, it had eaten away all of the fun she was supposed to be having.

[Pseudonym]

I think they might have missed a trick with Victor - they should have cut out some of the maze/puzzles and had the Victor part be more of a focus because really how terrifying for a such a sweet and innocent looking little girl to know where he is, and that he is dying, and smugly refusing to tell anyone. That could be really chilling, and I found young Eurus much scarier than adult Eurus. We saw the impact on Sherlock when he realised Redbeard was Victor, but can you imagine how terrified and horrified her parents must have been when they realised what she was capable of and that time was running out? Mycroft getting to the point of being as scared of her as he is now, and knowing that even though she was eight years younger she could outsmart him even then? Plus seeing the impact on child Sherlock, the way she was out to get him going by the RIP Sherlock drawings... I would have been more interested in seeing all of that and going into the true horror there rather than her playing games as an adult.

Maybe that's just because I don't find adult Eurus all that scary, I don't think I've found any of the villains that scary really :(

 

Interesting point earlier about the Holmes parents priorities, whether or not they would have covered up Eurus' involvement to protect her over trying to save Victor. 

[J.P.]

I always thought beautiful and innocent looking baddies are the scariest.

[Redbeard]

I think she started in that final room by saying something like "only two of you go on from here" so if he kills himself technically he still followed the rules lol.  

 

I found it interesting that Euros on the plane cries "Why won't mummy wake up!", which I take as her wondering why her mother won't see what is happening and help her?  So why just mom, why not mom and dad?  I think we do know they are supposed to get their intellect from their mother, but what if she also was more than a genius but also deeply disturbed like Euros.  Mycroft and Sherlock talk about her becoming absolutely monstrous...maybe she nearly went down the road Eurus was on but was able to be helped in some way.  Maybe it was just having the dad around, who became kind of her John Watson?   That is why mom is the one who should wake up, she is the one who should recognize and know what is going on. 

 

So if Euros is frustrated her mother can't/won't help her, and dad is not even considered because he is not "one of them", and Mycroft has already given up on her, I could see her interest in meeting James Moriarty because he also was a genius and maybe he could be her answer.  Unfortunately, he was crazy and they just kind of played off each other in all the wrong ways.  So the only other super genius she has heard about, her last hope at someone understanding, connecting, and helping is her brother Sherlock.  Of course she has heard stories about him, maybe expects him to be similar to Mycroft (hence the surprise that he is "nicer").  Maybe that is why she so desperate not to lose him.  It's like she can't decide whether he can help her or whether she just wants to toy with him. 

 

To me I think her turning point came when Sherlock was ready to sacrifice himself for John and Mycroft.  She wasn't touched when the governor tried to sacrifice himself for his wife back in the first room, it was just a game then; but when Sherlock was ready to do it, she had a reaction, an emotional one I think and that confused her and frightened her. 

 

And now I am just rambling and I apologize.  This board's like therapy. 

 

For someone who initially said I had no interest in re-watching this episode, I will be watching it again this afternoon, this will be the 4th.  (Why stop after three?  ;) )

[kimber8ada]

 

 

This has the video with the actors about the ILY you scene. I think someone asked for the reference.

 

http://jeni2727.tumblr.com/post/155957319627/alphielj-this-played-after-the-tfp-i-saw-a-few

Thank you, I never thought I would see the actual footage, I thought it was just words from a text-based interview.

 

Mark is in particularly crafty form when he says 'you'll never quite know'...

I can't get the video to play. Is there a narrative of what was said?

[Pseudonym]

The rambling posts are always the most interesting in my opinion ;)

 

Do you know what I would love to see that only just struck me - a spin off of a young Mummy Holmes, being beautiful and brilliant, and maybe just a little bit cold and aloof. Pretty sure she can do deductions too, but she seems a bit more together than Sherlock... I wouldn't want it being just a version of femmelock, but I'm sure there could be cool stories for a character like that. Plus a bit a cat and mouse flirting with a dashing young Papa Holmes. Period accurate of course, so set in the 60s or so when she's in her early twenties... Mummy Holmes could be a brilliant character. 

[Caya]

I thought they already had - of course she was using a code name there. ;)

[bedelia1984]

 

 

This has the video with the actors about the ILY you scene. I think someone asked for the reference.

 

http://jeni2727.tumblr.com/post/155957319627/alphielj-this-played-after-the-tfp-i-saw-a-few

Thank you, I never thought I would see the actual footage, I thought it was just words from a text-based interview.

 

Mark is in particularly crafty form when he says 'you'll never quite know'...

I can't get the video to play. Is there a narrative of what was said?

 

 

Not an exact transcript, but Louise says she likes that Molly turns the tables on Sherlock. Mark says it is important that you are left uncertain whether he means it or not. Benedict says Sherlock becomes out of control over Molly, and asks does that mean that he loves her, and says he doesn't think Sherlock has decided on that yet. And Mark talks about the coffin smashing being a necessarily release from the sort of relentless pressure in the build up to that scene.