Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[bedelia1984]

 

I'd love to see it lighter, but still with character development. To me, an episode like TEH has a near-perfect balance of humour, character and plot.

 

Agreed, but the backdrop was Sherlock being a jerk after returning from exile, having pretended to be dead for two years At this point, a similar plot would be considered character regression, not development. I love TEH, don't get me wrong, but I don't want to see Sherlock being that ignorant of someone's feelings again - at least not in such a serious context. He's grown too much for that.

 

 

I take your point, I don't want his character to regress in anyway, and I guess they got a lot of mileage out of his cluelessness about the feelings of others.

 

I love a lot of the comic aspects in TSOT too, like his speech, the stag night, the dressing up as a soldier. None of the things I like are exactly repeatable, because they require context. I'd just like to see them recover that tone of enjoyment. There is a moment of it in TFP when the music cues and we see Moriarty's helicopter. So I guess I'm hoping they give themselves a new context for more humour.

 

I was afraid that if they killed off Mary it would set the tone for the season and make everything dark, and I think we did get three dark episodes, whereas other seasons tended to have one more serious episode, usually at the end, but other lighter, more 'fun' episodes between.

[BLS_Pro]

 

Agreed, but the backdrop was Sherlock being a jerk after returning from exile, having pretended to be dead for two years At this point, a similar plot would be considered character regression, not development. I love TEH, don't get me wrong, but I don't want to see Sherlock being that ignorant of someone's feelings again - at least not in such a serious context.

I don't think Sherlock was ignorant at all of John's feelings in TEH.  I think he was completely calculating - as much as he was in TLD.  I think TEH and TLD are echoes of each other in this regard.  In both, Sherlock knows John is hurting (supposedly at Sherlock's hand).  In both Sherlock has to get John past the wall he erects which is his anger and rage, and to the point of acceptance - so that they may renew and reaffirm their friendship.  Thus, in both Sherlock provokes John in order to get him to release that rage (physically - so as to break down that wall) in order that John may then get past it.

 

Put simply, where Sherlock builds walls of repression to protect himself, John builds walls of anger to protect himself.

[Arcadia]

RE: the low ratings, there may be a couple other factors at work here as well. For one thing, it seems like negative reactions simply demand to be vented more than positive ones do. It makes us feel better. For another, at least one group of fans has been egging on others to downgrade the ratings because the show didn't turn out the way they wanted it to. And then, the people who like it the least are also the least likely to give it another chance and watch it again, like ... ahem ... a few of us may have done. ;) Lord knows I'm one of those who definitely liked this episode better after multiple viewings.

 

Still, I can't deny, I would rate this season below the other three. But not that far below!

[BLS_Pro]

Another BTW - as I previously noted, the choice of "Break Free" is perfect choice for Moriarty's 'theme' music.  And it is telling that he stops the song where he does:

"I want to breaaaak freeeee.   ...   I've fallen in-"

He stops it there because the next word is "love".  And love is NOT his solution to The Final Problem". 

[Arcadia]

 

I take your point, I don't want his character to regress in anyway, and I guess they got a lot of mileage out of his cluelessness about the feelings of others.

 

I love a lot of the comic aspects in TSOT too, like his speech, the stag night, the dressing up as a soldier. None of the things I like are exactly repeatable, because they require context. I'd just like to see them recover that tone of enjoyment. There is a moment of it in TFP when the music cues and we see Moriarty's helicopter. So I guess I'm hoping they give themselves a new context for more humour.

 

I was afraid that if they killed off Mary it would set the tone for the season and make everything dark, and I think we did get three dark episodes, whereas other seasons tended to have one more serious episode, usually at the end, but other lighter, more 'fun' episodes between.

 

Although there were some great bits in TLD, which is weird considering what the story was. But I howled at Mrs. Hudson, and Sherlock's mumbled "oh, you're really not going to like this." But yeah, overall it was darker. Maybe so we'd appreciate it more when the sun finally came out at the end?

 

Moffat made the point recently that both he and Gatiss have their roots in comedy, so I don't think they would lose the humor completely. They enjoy it too much!

[Surelock]

 

I'd love to see it lighter, but still with character development. To me, an episode like TEH has a near-perfect balance of humour, character and plot.

 

Agreed, but the backdrop was Sherlock being a jerk after returning from exile, having pretended to be dead for two years At this point, a similar plot would be considered character regression, not development. I love TEH, don't get me wrong, but I don't want to see Sherlock being that ignorant of someone's feelings again - at least not in such a serious context. He's grown too much for that.

 

 

I think there is at least one way Moffatiss can still continue to develop Sherlock and John: explore Sherlock's personal sense of justice.

 

In the books, Holmes didn't always hand the criminal over to the police. If the criminal was actually a decent person who only killed once out of rage, revenge etc and didn't look like they would commit any further crimes, then Holmes would let them go. Examples of short stories where he did so were 'The Devil's Foot' and 'The Boscombe Valley'. Holmes was a bit of a vigilante in the books. He wasn't always on the side of the law. He used his own sense of justice at times. Watson used to argue sometimes when he saw Holmes take justice into his own hands.

 

I'm surprised we didn't see this trait in BBC Sherlock considering that they wanted to humanise Sherlock. Showing a personal sense of justice in him would be a good way of showing how he has developed empathy. However I can see Moffatiss explore this idea in a potential fifth season because it would flow on logically from where Season 4 left off. Season 4 ended with Sherlock trying to make up with Euros in his own way so it could make sense for him to develop his own sense of justice by the next season.

[BLS_Pro]

Another BTW - to show how Eurus and Sherlock are kindred souls, as apart from Mycroft: Mycroft is not "given to outbursts of brotherly compassion".  In both cases, when dealing with unwieldy siblings, he doesn't save them.  Mycroft sends Eurus to hell and Sherlock to his death.

That is why it was Eurus who had to save Sherlock with the "Miss Me?" ploy (as opposed to Mycroft).  Mycroft's lack of sentimentality when it comes to human relations constrains his thinking - limits his choices.  Eurus recognized this about Mycroft even as a child (as apparently did their parents).

Eurus is much like Mary.  She threatens Sherlock's life, but her intention is not to kill him.  "Mixed messages" indeed. ;)

[BLS_Pro]

Another BTW - more ways in which Mary and Eurus' stories mirror each other:

(and T6T mirrors TFP)

Mary's colleague was 'abandoned' by Mary - and because of that he was left to be tortured relentlessly for SIX years for absolutely NO reason.  He was trapped and alone.  It was insane, senseless, endless.  So he is mad as hell at Mary for leaving him alone in that hell - just as Eurus is mad as hell at Sherlock for leaving her alone in her hell. 

And in both cases, neither Mary nor Sherlock knew those they had abandoned all those years ago were even alive.  Didn't know of their existence.  They were nothing anymore.

"We were family" "Families fall out"

And now something in Mary's past has come back to haunt her, as she says.  A "very tangible ghost" Sherlock comments. 

Sherlock says his loved ones will not die "Not on my watch"

While on the run - ie alone - Mary's "anxiety" while flying.  "I think I'm dying.  I don't feel so good."

It's all random action when she is alone.  No rhyme or reason it it.  It's all a "roll of the dice", nothing more when she is separated from others.

Mary ultimately doesn't hate the man who is trying to kill her - who has killed others.  She doesn't want to kill him and is pained when he gets hurt.
Sherlock doesn't hate Eurus - who has killed others.  He doesn't want to kill her and is pained when he discovers her hurt.

Mary and Sherlock both understand that the two are literally tortured souls.  They don't forgive them for their wrongs.  But they do empathize with their pitiful plights - and want to set things right.

 

The antagonist in both stories acts out of "jealousy" - and who have a "void" in their life because they are alone.

 

The person who loses a love (John losing Mary; Sherlock losing Victor) raises walls against others because of it.

 

Mary tells Sherlock she must go to hell to save John.  That is exactly what he also has to do to save Eurus.  And he has to save them both from the same fate:  being alone.  Being without love. 

[BLS_Pro]

And of course 4.1 features a character code-named LOVE.  What does Love do?  She saves people.  ;)

Further, what happens when it is NOT Love?  When something is used in Love's stead?  People are not saved.  There is but suffering, destruction, and death.

[jadpdr]

Please remember that Love is Lady Smallwood, who first got Sherlock into the whole HLV mess ( admittedly out of love for her husband), who was quite willing to have Sherlock quietly executed at the end of it, finding Mycroft's solution not a merciful one, such as a quick death, who quite calculatedly tries to guilt-trip Mycroft into having an evening together. Her Love is manipulative and certainly not unconditional.

In this indescribable mess of an episode, I would quite like to know HOW Evros knew about Molly as Sherlock's pressure point. Moriarty didn't know of it, we are assured in TEH, by Sherlock himself, in fact Moriarty overlooked her thus helping Sherlock survive the Fall. In his encounter with the Lady in Red they discussed her apparent problems as Faith Smith. Dr Watson had about a couple of sessions with her as the fake therapist, and he himself is not entirely in the know about Molly and Sherlock's complicated relationship. Mycroft was in the know as far as the Lazarus plan was concerned, if we take Sherlock's word for its being the definitive answer, but nothing more. When Sherlock himself plays Irene's song, it has nothing to do with Molly.

So, HOW did she know about the little pathologist and her crush on Sherlock? Their one brief glimpse on the doorstep of the psychotherapist's house was enough to do the usual deducing trick of the Holmes tribe, but not enough to fathom sentiment.

[bedelia1984]

 

 Dr Watson had about a couple of sessions with her as the fake therapist, and he himself is not entirely in the know about Molly and Sherlock's complicated relationship. Mycroft was in the know as far as the Lazarus plan was concerned, if we take Sherlock's word for its being the definitive answer, but nothing more. When Sherlock himself plays Irene's song, it has nothing to do with Molly.

So, HOW did she know about the little pathologist and her crush on Sherlock? Their one brief glimpse on the doorstep of the psychotherapist's house was enough to do the usual deducing trick of the Holmes tribe, but not enough to fathom sentiment.

 

It seems possible John could have mentioned it in passing, though unlikely. I would really like to know the answer to this. I wish someone would ask the writers. Though, I suspect you might get a snippy reply similar to when people asked what happened next with Molly. It's almost like some sort of... conspiracy  ;)

[Loekie]

 

 

 

Point is, I get why people obsess over the little things - it's because we care so much about the show - but I also think the writers deserve more credit than they are currently getting over series 4.

 

 

Yes, especially some of the poor reviews online seem quite unfair, when you consider the quality of this episode compared to a lot of other shows on TV. The fact they have so many relationships, interactions and concepts that we all can see in so many different ways, must mean they are doing something right.

 

And, this one in particular, had so many small but huge moments for the characters, that a little outlandishness from the plot can be forgiven

 

 

You know it's not just fans that are giving this season poor reviews. It's professional critics as well.

 

Season 4 of Sherlock got 59% on Rotten Tomatoes.

 

For comparison's sake, Season 1 got 100%, Season 2 got 100% and Season 3 got 97%. Dropping from 97% to 59% is quite bad.

 

Metacritic hasn't released its released its score yet however it has made 3 reviews it used public. 2/3 of the reviews are mixed (which is the 40 - 60 range).

 

For comparison, none of the previous seasons ever got any mixed reviews. All the reviews were positive. Season 1 got 85, Season 2 got 91 and Season 3 got 88. It's expected for Season 4's score to be lower here as well. 

 

Season 4 isn't getting critical acclaim which feels very off to many Sherlock fans because Sherlock is a show that has been critically acclaimed since its first season. I can see why so many people are angry at Moffatiss for the new direction they took the series with in Season 4.

 

This makes me wonder if the poor reviews would convince Moffatiss to not take the next season of Sherlock (assuming they make it) in a new direction like they did with Season 4.

 

 

 

Maybe there are many like me: first I gave it a poor review, now I think it's excellent.

 

[Loekie]

What would have happened if Euros had blew up the appartment of Molly? She was able to do so, we saw earlier.

[Loekie]

In this indescribable mess of an episode, I would quite like to know HOW Evros knew about Molly as Sherlock's pressure point. Moriarty didn't know of it, we are assured in TEH, by Sherlock himself, in fact Moriarty overlooked her thus helping Sherlock survive the Fall. In his encounter with the Lady in Red they discussed her apparent problems as Faith Smith. Dr Watson had about a couple of sessions with her as the fake therapist, and he himself is not entirely in the know about Molly and Sherlock's complicated relationship. Mycroft was in the know as far as the Lazarus plan was concerned, if we take Sherlock's word for its being the definitive answer, but nothing more. When Sherlock himself plays Irene's song, it has nothing to do with Molly.

So, HOW did she know about the little pathologist and her crush on Sherlock? Their one brief glimpse on the doorstep of the psychotherapist's house was enough to do the usual deducing trick of the Holmes tribe, but not enough to fathom sentiment.

 

Maybe she had spies working for her? There was a camera in the appartment of Molly.

[bedelia1984]

What would have happened if Euros had blew up the appartment of Molly? She was able to do so, we saw earlier.

 

I don't know what would have happened to Sherlock, but I would have collapsed into a weeping mess and probably been carried out of the cinema on a stretcher so as not to disturb the other guests.

[Carol the Dabbler]

From another thread -- brought here due to spoilers (and spoiler box removed):

 

 

Well, in the case of the "groundbreaking and historical", it's my understanding that it was Amanda who said that ... and she doesn't speak for Moftiss anymore than I do. If I recall, Mark or Steven even tried to play down that statement. But it's very, very hard, once something you don't want said is out there, to unsay it. Even well-meaning people will miss the retraction, and hear only the "unapproved" version. But it's my understanding that's exactly what happened here ... Amanda was a little too enthusiastic, and Moftiss tried but largely failed to tell everyone that her remarks were to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

....

 

 

Sorry if it is spoilery to speak about specific plot points from season 4, I will use a spoiler box just in case

 

I think she probably meant that giving the Holmes boys a sister and not a brother- and a derranged one at that- was something new and groundbreaking. I kind of think it is, too. To me she's the first real convincing female supervillain they have had. I know they had the lady in TBB, and Irene, but they've never had a female criminalmastermind. I know a lot of us guessed it and all, but we're probably overthinking it slightly compared to Amanda, who would see it as a cool twist on the historical format

Discussion?

[Surelock]

 

 

 Dr Watson had about a couple of sessions with her as the fake therapist, and he himself is not entirely in the know about Molly and Sherlock's complicated relationship. Mycroft was in the know as far as the Lazarus plan was concerned, if we take Sherlock's word for its being the definitive answer, but nothing more. When Sherlock himself plays Irene's song, it has nothing to do with Molly.

So, HOW did she know about the little pathologist and her crush on Sherlock? Their one brief glimpse on the doorstep of the psychotherapist's house was enough to do the usual deducing trick of the Holmes tribe, but not enough to fathom sentiment.

 

It seems possible John could have mentioned it in passing, though unlikely. I would really like to know the answer to this. I wish someone would ask the writers. Though, I suspect you might get a snippy reply similar to when people asked what happened next with Molly. It's almost like some sort of... conspiracy  ;)

 

 

Well John kind of did mention it in passing.

 

When Sherlock arrived at his therapy session and asks for help, John says that he wants Sherlock examined first. Sherlock then says that John is a doctor and can conduct the examination himself. However John replies with: 

 

'I want you examined by the one person who, unlike me, learnt to see past your bullsh*t long ago. I want you examined by Molly Hooper.'

 

Since Euros heard that line then it may not have been difficult for her to deduce that there was potential romance between Sherlock and Molly. I mean who else can look past your bullsh*t better than your significant other? She may have also put on another one of her disguises and interviewed Molly about her feelings for Sherlock before revealing herself to John.

 

[bedelia1984]

 

 

 

Well John kind of did mention it in passing.

 

When Sherlock arrived at his therapy session and asks for help, John says that he wants Sherlock examined first. Sherlock then says that John is a doctor and can conduct the examination himself. However John replies with: 

 

'I want you examined by the one person who, unlike me, learnt to see past your bullsh*t long ago. I want you examined by Molly Hooper.'

 

Since Euros heard that line then it may not have been difficult for her to deduce that there was potential romance between Sherlock and Molly. I mean who else can look past your bullsh*t better than your significant other? She may have also put on another one of her disguises and interviewed Molly about her feelings for Sherlock before revealing herself to John.

 

 

 

Yes, and actually the other thing that might suggest this is Mrs. Hudson asking why they are bringing Molly in when she's better with dead people (Mrs. Hudson is the best!). It's actually more a fanfic-y thing in the past that Molly is a doctor. Last year she was just running a urine test. God, they really give Molly all the best jobs. 

 

So maybe it was the writers saying, okay it is a little bit cheeky to put Molly in here, but it helps with the story in the next one that Eurus has at least laid eyes on her and at least has heard a hint of some sort of relationship with Sherlock.

 

From Carol on another thread:

 

By the way, if my understanding of the term "bromance" is accurate, then "Final Problem" was actually full of it. I can't give you any examples in this thread of course, but given the meaning of a super-close male friendship, I think you can easily provide your own examples. 

 

 

I think there is definitely bromance in season 4, though not, in reference to the chat on the WTF thread, of the sort that is conducive to jokes.

 

There is whole arc here where John and Sherlock have this huge obstacle between them, in Mary's death, and then eventually John comes to terms with it, and Sherlock is so amazingly understanding about it- and then all hell breaks loose with Eurus. But I really miss their ordinary hanging out time. For me, that was missing from season 4.

[J.P.]

Another BTW - to show how Eurus and Sherlock are kindred souls, as apart from Mycroft: Mycroft is not "given to outbursts of brotherly compassion".  In both cases, when dealing with unwieldy siblings, he doesn't save them.  Mycroft sends Eurus to hell and Sherlock to his death.

 

That is why it was Eurus who had to save Sherlock with the "Miss Me?" ploy (as opposed to Mycroft).  Mycroft's lack of sentimentality when it comes to human relations constrains his thinking - limits his choices.  Eurus recognized this about Mycroft even as a child (as apparently did their parents).

 

Which seems to be a huge contradiction with Mycroft protecting Sherlock from the memories. Their whole relationship is one big outburst of brotherly compassion, isn't it?

[bedelia1984]

Just in case anybody has any thought on it, it just came into my mind when Sherlock asks Eurus about her experience of sex and she talks about raping that guard and not being sure if it was a man or a woman and that by the end you couldn't tell. That was so, so disturbing! 

[Redbeard]

Regarding Molly, the thing I find interesting about her is she is pretty much the only "normal" female on the show.  You have Irene with this supposed superior intellect and super sexiness; Mary the super-spy assassin who is also brilliant, Mummy Holmes who is brilliant, Eurus who is a genius, and even Mrs. Hudson who seemed to start off normal is actually part of a former drug-cartel, stripper, race car driving maniac lol.  Molly remains the only actually normal, down to Earth boring person which would make it all the more ironic and fascinating if Sherlock Holmes actually loves her, lol.  I can definitely see this causing all kinds of confusion and conflict in him!

[Redbeard]

It's too bad people have rated/are rating TFP based on their initial knee-jerk reactions. Mine wasn't good either after the first viewing. Another factor is, who are these people? Casual viewers? If they are, then of course they wouldn't "get it." At least faithful Sherlock watchers would understand what was going on.

 

Okay, yes, I'm a defender.

 

I agree with this totally.  This is the only episode that I did not rate immediately after viewing and in fact still have not rated it!  My knee-jerk reaction was a 1 or 2.  But as it all settled in and I thought about it, and re-watched it I started love it.  If I were to review it now I would give it a 10.  I am holding off though to see where the number ultimately settles.  This has been the most puzzling episode to me, in terms of what it all means and how I feel about it all.  

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

Agreed, but the backdrop was Sherlock being a jerk after returning from exile, having pretended to be dead for two years At this point, a similar plot would be considered character regression, not development. I love TEH, don't get me wrong, but I don't want to see Sherlock being that ignorant of someone's feelings again - at least not in such a serious context.

I don't think Sherlock was ignorant at all of John's feelings in TEH.  I think he was completely calculating - as much as he was in TLD.  I think TEH and TLD are echoes of each other in this regard.  In both, Sherlock knows John is hurting (supposedly at Sherlock's hand).  In both Sherlock has to get John past the wall he erects which is his anger and rage, and to the point of acceptance - so that they may renew and reaffirm their friendship.  Thus, in both Sherlock provokes John in order to get him to release that rage (physically - so as to break down that wall) in order that John may then get past it.

 

Early in The Empty Hearse it definitely seems to me that Sherlock is ignorant - to some extent, at least - of John's feelings. When he shows up in the restaurant it takes him a moment to catch up with the fact that John is furious. He probably expected John to get angry, but not like this. When Sherlock talked to Mary and said, "I don't understand - I said I was sorry, isn't that what you're supposed to do?" I believe he really meant that. He just didn't get it. But when John left, I think Sherlock started to realise the depth of John's anger and sorrow. He caught up quickly after that.

 

 

Another BTW - as I previously noted, the choice of "Break Free" is perfect choice for Moriarty's 'theme' music.  And it is telling that he stops the song where he does:

 

"I want to breaaaak freeeee.   ...   I've fallen in-"

 

He stops it there because the next word is "love".  And love is NOT his solution to The Final Problem". 

 

Yep, noticed that too It made perfect sense to end the song there!

 

 

I was afraid that if they killed off Mary it would set the tone for the season and make everything dark, and I think we did get three dark episodes, whereas other seasons tended to have one more serious episode, usually at the end, but other lighter, more 'fun' episodes between.

 

I also feel that this was a darker, tougher series than the previous ones - however, The Final Problem still had a good energy, some exhilarating scenes and funny moments. The Lying Detective too, actually, but most of it was very solemn. The Six Thatchers was just a bit... low key.

 

 

And of course 4.1 features a character code-named LOVE.  What does Love do?  She saves people.  ;)

 

Further, what happens when it is NOT Love?  When something is used in Love's stead?  People are not saved.  There is but suffering, destruction, and death.

 

I enjoy how you keep catching these references to the 'love' theme of series 4 Some of them escape my attention completely.

 

 

Molly remains the only actually normal, down to Earth boring person which would make it all the more ironic and fascinating if Sherlock Holmes actually loves her, lol.  I can definitely see this causing all kinds of confusion and conflict in him!

 

Ha! :D You're right; that would be upside-down! John falling for the ex-assasin, Sherlock for the girl-next-door! ;)  Alas, I am not convinced that he doesn't prefer Irene, though. But never mind... that would never last or become anything serious. Perhaps Sherlock would eventually fall for Molly.

[J.P.]

Maybe he loves Molly a bit like he loves John. As a very close friend. Not that makes it any better for the poor girl.

[BLS_Pro]

Please remember that Love is Lady Smallwood..

I reference her as Love contextually - not her pre-S4 characterization.  She was not identified as Love until 4.1.  It is her actions in that episode to which I refer - specifically she saves Sherlock, but more importantly to the story/theme Love was saving the hostages.  (And could even save Mycroft perhaps, as someone to Love) But it is the twisted Love which destroys people's lives.  It is murderous jealousy which wreaks havoc. (As Eurus' murderous jealousy does)

 

So what we get here is tragedy. 

 

More importantly, though, what we get here is the alternate ending of 4.3 if Sherlock was simply the repressed deducing machine - absent the willingness to love.  He doesn't feel empathy for Norbury.  He simply dissects her.  It is his lack of empathy which leads to more deathly consequences.  He learns that lesson HARD.  But the learning of that lesson saves EVERYONE in the end (4.3)