The Language (and travel) Thread

[Artemis]

I like "a scurry of squirrels".  Hehe.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I have no quarrel with anybody using any of those.  They're colorful, poetic.  What I do very much mind is people insisting that I have to use those terms because they're the "correct" ones -- whereas the truth is that hardly anyone has *ever* used them.

 

I suspect that someone back in the 1400's attempted to introduce all of them wholesale.  Some took, some didn't.  Pride of lions appears to be from that crop, for example, and it's become standard.  But it's one of the few.  Kinda reminds me of Noah Webster's simplified/phonetic American spellings.  Some took hold and are now standard here -- e.g., color, center, tire, hiccup.  Some are used occasionally but are considered slangy -- e.g., nite, thru, tho.  And some sank without a trace -- so I can't even think of an example.

[Artemis]

Some took hold and are now standard here -- e.g., color, center, tire, hiccup.  Some are used occasionally but are considered slangy -- e.g., nite, thru, tho.  And some sank without a trace -- so I can't even think of an example.

 

I have to admit I hate the slangy ones, lol.  If a restaurant wants to put "Drive-Thru" on their sign, I don't care; but if someone writes me that they're going to see me "tomorrow nite", that's annoying.  Abbreviations like that seem lazy and senseless, especially when it's only one letter less.  Just spell it out.

 

But then I've had a strong "Grammar Nazi" urge since childhood.  If I didn't rein it in I'd constantly be like Sherlock in the opening scene of TGG.

 

What is the non-American spelling of "hiccup"?

 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

In short, the fancy words for groups of animals fall into the same category as "antidisestablishmentarianism" and "floccinaucinihilipilification" -- basically they're words that were made up just so people could show off. :P

Or. Or it makes a good first name.

It's worth it to just see people's reaction when you shake their hand. Oh wait, that would prolong the interaction. I probably need to think this through.

 

The comments: I love how they try to make sense of murderous attempts of crows. Would like to read the theory of about implausibility of gnus, fever of stingrays and exultation of skylarks though (I guess there is book for last one XD).

 

For marine animals, I'd just use school, can't even remember using pod to describe whales or smack of jellyfish (sounds fun though). And the first time I heard school it sounded very weird. "We saw school of jacks in that corner of shipwreck!"

At that time, before I knew the term, my mind was running wild with jacks holding school bags to board jack bus or them doing homeworks.

I notice we never use others except school and group ('we' refer to people from many backgrounds, non or English speakers, including some Brits and Americans and of course dastardly French :p) and in emergency case of excitement, the plural term is many many, the more it is the more 'many' we would use. I learnt that from an English speaker. XD "Wow, that was many, many many many many hammerheads down there!"

 

So you see, I consider being able to have fun with puns as an achievement and that should be encouraged, right? :p

 

(Jack is common term for big eye trevally)

[Carol the Dabbler]

What is the non-American spelling of "hiccup"?

I believe it's "hiccough."

 

Added: ... though I see some dispute online. This particular word may not be an American vs British thing after all.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Aiz.

All this time! All this time I always wondered why Sherlock said 'many happy returns', thought it was a bit out of place. There is other series with episode titled many happy returns as well, but the connection I made between those two episodes is that they are telling stories in relation to someone in the past that is no longer around, and that is the only connection I made, beside both episodes have birthday (but the birthdays are only sidelines that act as almost irrelevant plots in both, so that didn't help).

 

It was only when watching part of MHR for John Watson's apartment observation that I finally googled it.

But why is it used as birthday greeting? Returns from what?

I know, I know, it just sounds weird to me.

[Arcadia]

"Many happy returns of the day" is how I've always seen it; meaning, I guess, "I hope you have many more happy birthdays." I'm not sure because I think this is the first time in my life I've stopped to think what it might mean.

[J.P.]

Yes, it's an alternative way to say Happy Birthday. Haven't heard it before MHR, but it seems to be quite common.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Not as common as "Happy Birthday" though, and I get the feeling that it's becoming even less common.

 

But well enough known that one variety of reblooming daylily is named 'Happy Returns.'

[Van Buren Supernova]

Let me try it to my friends, wait, birthdays has passed, next year maybe.

I'm very sure most would say 'What Return? Return from what?' XD

[Carol the Dabbler]

It's kind of an old-fashioned phrase. Maybe you just need older friends.

[T.o.b.y]

I think it sounds lovely. I was familiar with the phrase before from reading older books but I have never heard it used in real life.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Not sure I have either, though I would assume so.

[Artemis]

I was familiar with it as well.  I can't remember if I've said it, but I have said, "And many more," which is almost the same thing (in meaning, at least).

 

 

[Arcadia]

In my family we always sing "And many morrrrrre" after we sing the birthday song. I don't think the younger generation has picked it up, though ... in fact, I don't think they even sing the song. Punks.

[Artemis]

In my family we always sing "And many morrrrrre" after we sing the birthday song.

We too. Well actually... maybe just me, lol.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Alex and I inflict that on our cats. :D

[Van Buren Supernova]

It's kind of an old-fashioned phrase. Maybe you just need older friends.

I do have older friends. As in significantly older. But they are as immature as me. Does immature offset age? Because I'm pretty sure no one knows that term. XD

 

Alex and I inflict that on our cats. :D

Good heavens.

I rate feline singing as the second last thing I want to hear. Just above women whinning. Yah, I am sexist and cattish.

[Carol the Dabbler]

No, no, the cats don't sing, Alex and I do. If you can call it singing. :P

[SherlockedCAMPer]

No, no, the cats don't sing, Alex and I do. If you can call it singing. :P

If the cats don't run away in horror, then it might not be too bad.

[Van Buren Supernova]

No, no, the cats don't sing, Alex and I do. If you can call it singing. :P

Yah. I don't know if that makes me feel better. XD

 

Related topic,

Now I get the hang of it (I think), but I used to be confused with double negative (like I ain't do nothing) or that I didn't do anything and I didn't do nothing have basically same meaning.

 

I suppose it's slang/informal/something else.

These things are like insider secret XD but I notice other language have similar things too, double meaning, collective different meaning in a sentence etc etc.

 

And now in any language, slangs and informal make it weirder. I remember barely understand a lot of 'new cool words' in my own language in gathering with old friends. Most of these new words are formed from two words made into acronyms or newly invented words that become widespread and recognized because of social media. For sure, I fell very outdated.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I used to be confused with double negative (like I ain't do nothing) or that I didn't do anything and I didn't do nothing have basically same meaning.

Like a good many other "substandard" expressions, multiple negatives are actually quite traditional in English.  The negatives are additive, with a double being a stronger statement than a single, and a triple being even stronger.  (One of my professors claimed that Chaucer once used a quadruple negative.)

 

I'm fairly sure the same applies in Spanish, but I'm pretty rusty.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Yup, I was clueless, thinking in math way, that double negative means positive.

[Arcadia]

Er .... if I'm understanding Carol correctly (and as tired as I am, it's very possible I'm not) ... then I was taught the exact opposite ... a double negative IS a positive. In other words, "I didn't do nothing" technically means "I did something." But like many things, it's meaning is also derived from context ... if you know that's how the person talks, for example, you might know they really mean "I didn't do anything." But it's always been considered incorrect grammar where I come from (which is California.) But I myself might use it when I'm trying to be informal or funny.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Near as I can figure, some linguist decided to be prescriptive rather than descriptive.  In other words, he made no real attempt to record the actual English usage of his day, but rather attempted to impose his own abstract logic on the language.  So it's not so much that a double negative is "technically" a positive, but rather than it's "supposedly" a positive.  In other words, that claim is a boogeyman that generations of English teachers have used in an attempt to prevent their students from speaking their own native language.

 

And I finally remembered what I wanted to say about Spanish.  The correct way to say "there isn't anything" (or "there is nothing") is "no hay nada" -- literally "there isn't nothing."  Surely logic is logic all around the globe -- but somehow I doubt that our over-zealous linguist would get anywhere if he tried to explain his brand of logic to the entire Spanish-speaking world!

 

Wikipedia has an interesting article on this subject.  As they point out, there are some cases where a double negative clearly is a positive.  But in sentences like "I didn't say nothing to nobody," that's just as clearly not the case!

 

If Wikipedia is correct in saying that a double negative really IS a positive in some dialects (including "standard" English), then I suppose it wasn't a case of abstract logic being imposed upon a living language, but rather a case of the "rules" (i.e., the natural behavior) of one dialect being imposed upon another.