Subtext Interpretation... What Do You See?

[Boton]

 

I've seen where people insist that John licking his lips at that point means that John is coming on to Sherlock, and therefore they must have been going at it like bunnies in Baker Street that night. To which I say, hogwash (but agree that it's suggestive, just to hedge my bets! :D Because, y'know, stranger things have happened.... )

Saying that John licking his lips is suggestive is like saying that John breathing is suggestive (which -- well, yeah, it can be). But my point is, John licks his lips a lot.   I wouldn't put too much weight on it, other than he's a bit nervous or uncertain or just about anything of that general sort.  I certainly wouldn't take it as proof of sexual anticipation, or even as evidence for it -- about the most positive statement that could reasonably be made (in my opinion) it that it does not rule it out.

 

...

 

 

 

 

Her face had neither regularity of feature nor beauty of complexion, but her expression was sweet and amiable, and her large blue eyes were singularly spiritual and sympathetic.  In an experience of women which extends over many nations and three separate continents, I have never looked upon a face which gave a clearer promise of a refined and sensitive nature.

 

That describes Watson's first impression of Mary Morstan (in The Sign of the Four).  While I do not deny that Watson appreciates the company of women, I cannot understand how the above sentences would qualify him as a "ladies' man" (at least not if that term is meant to imply a "love 'em and leave 'em" type).  He seems to be far more appreciative of Miss Morstan's character than of her appearance, and yet by the end of the story, he has asked her to marry him.

 

 

Yeah, as for the first point, I find it hysterical that once Sherlock points out to Irene that pupil dilation is a sign of arousal, it seemed every amateur detective in the fandom started pointing out dilated pupils as evidence that S/J was a thing.  Hey, sometimes dilated pupils mean the lights are low!  And sometimes John licking his lips means that John has dry lips!  Sometimes a cigar is, in fact, just a cigar.

 

As to the "three continents" idea, I agree with Carol that the original quote was much milder and didn't really give ACD Watson the reputation of a "rounder."  He's just saying he's traveled and met a bunch of women, and Mary is the nicest and the prettiest.

 

It's updating this for the modern era where it can be fun.  To make an updated version of Watson, you have to admit that we are not in a Victorian era, and men and women mix freely.  John would have met tons of women casually without even leaving London.  So, in order for the statement to mean anything in the John context, he'd basically have to "upgrade" to saying that he's slept with a ton of women, and Mary is the finest specimen he's encountered.  Wink wink, nudge nudge.

 

Of course, John is never actually called "Three Continents Watson" in the show.  It's just one of those bits of fan-canon backstory that makes the show fun.  And I love the fact that John seems to strike out as much as he scores (Because of Sherlock exclusively? Who knows?)  So, our "Three Continents John" might just be a normal bloke with a lot of perseverance and a tremendous at-bat percentage.   :D

[Caya]

And why Moftiss made Mary the way she is?

 

*This* is why Steven Moffat made Mary the way she is:

 

 

(source)

 

See also: why I'm positive that Sherlolly is quite as unlikely as Johnlock.

[Boton]

 

And why Moftiss made Mary the way she is?

 

*This* is why Steven Moffat made Mary the way she is:

 

 

(source)

 

See also: why I'm positive that Sherlolly is quite as unlikely as Johnlock.

 

 

 

*That uncomfortable moment when you're writing/running a television show and realize you've inadvertently exposed your own kinks.*

[J.P.]

Sherlock's problem is not that he can't feel, but that he's prone to feel too much and too strongly. I think his whole antisocial aloof act is just protection against getting hurt, and as a sensitive and fiercely protective person myself, I can sympathize with that whole-heartedly (perhaps I have him all wrong and am just projecting my own experience onto him).

 

Then we are both projecting similar things. It is still better than projecting things on a real person, isn't it.

 

 

Even in our day, the average person, man or woman, is way too easy to hurt / maim / kill for a guy in Sherlock's position to love her / him without having to worry constantly. 

 

Talk about pressure points.

 

 

I think one of the reasons he ever let John into his life as far as he did was that John can really take care of himself. He can fight, he can shoot, he's seen actual warfare, and besides, his personality guarantees that he'll get himself into trouble anyway, Sherlock or no Sherlock, so that takes a lot of responsibility off Sherlock's shoulders. In fact, all of Sherlock's friends are a bit like that. Mrs Hudson may seem like a harmless sweet old lady, but we know her past says otherwise, and the experience with the CIA goons shows she's a pretty tough cookie. Lestrade is a police officer - same principles apply as with John. Irene Adler and Janine could both be classified as "adventuresses", and don't even get me started on Mary. (I think Sherlock is secretly delighted that Mary is such a bad-ass. No worrying about her. She's more likely to get him out of a tight spot than vice versa).

 

Yes! You are right! My brain was unsuccessfully sneaking around the reason Sherlock chose John, now you nailed it. 

 

 

The only exception to that rule is Molly. Sure, she's brave enough, and she has a much stronger personality than we were initially led to think, but she doesn't seem to have many skills for protecting herself from the kind of people whom Sherlock tends to antagonize. No wonder he never let his affection for her show.

 

Another great insight, which makes so much sense, no matter if it is conscious decision or not. In any case it is a great way to legitimate his behavior - also for himself. Thanks.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... it's one thing to expose a fellow crime-fighter to danger.  Tonto and John can in general take care of themselves (despite being taken captive roughly every-other episode), whereas a "civilian" who is not armed and not physically as strong would be at far greater risk.

 

A former army doctor 'Fifth Northumberland Fusiliers' , which is endearing, when several other historically important regiments were disbanded or merged in the latest Defense budget cuts, would hardly qualify as a "civilian", now would he?

Oh dear, was I ambiguous again? I meant to say that there's a major difference between endangering an experienced fighter like John vs. endangering Mrs. Sherlock Holmes (whoever she might be). In other words, I was referring to her as a "civilian," not John. (P.S.: I don't believe the Fifth Northumberland Fusiliers still exist, either -- except in the Sherlock universe).

 

(I think Sherlock is secretly delighted that Mary is such a bad-ass. No worrying about her. She's more likely to get him out of a tight spot than vice versa).

There, see? Great minds think alike!

 

I thought Mr. Holmes' position on women was that they were not trustworthy. :P

Good point about Mary -- and quite possibly why Moftiss decided to write her that way.  And yes, that was Holmes's Victorian position on women -- though not necessarily Sherlock's.  ;)

 

While I do not deny that Watson appreciates the company of women, I cannot understand how the above sentences would qualify him as a "ladies' man" (at least not if that term is meant to imply a "love 'em and leave 'em" type).  He seems to be far more appreciative of Miss Morstan's character than of her appearance, and yet by the end of the story, he has asked her to marry him.

As to the "three continents" idea, I agree with Carol that the original quote was much milder and didn't really give ACD Watson the reputation of a "rounder."  He's just saying he's traveled and met a bunch of women, and Mary is the nicest and the prettiest.

 

It's updating this for the modern era where it can be fun.  To make an updated version of Watson, you have to admit that we are not in a Victorian era, and men and women mix freely.  John would have met tons of women casually without even leaving London.  So, in order for the statement to mean anything in the John context, he'd basically have to "upgrade" to saying that he's slept with a ton of women, and Mary is the finest specimen he's encountered.  Wink wink, nudge nudge.

 

Of course, John is never actually called "Three Continents Watson" in the show.  It's just one of those bits of fan-canon backstory that makes the show fun.  And I love the fact that John seems to strike out as much as he scores (Because of Sherlock exclusively? Who knows?)  So, our "Three Continents John" might just be a normal bloke with a lot of perseverance and a tremendous at-bat percentage.   :D

I don't think John necessarily has all that good a batting average, although I certainly agree about his perseverance!  He's a bit awkward with women he's just met, which I find utterly charming -- he's definitely not "smooth."  I agree that the modern John Watson would be likely to have more sexual experience than his Victorian counterpart, simply because that's true of the average person nowadays, but as you say, that needn't mean he's a cad, just a normal, healthy male.  I would hate to have the good-hearted Doctor Watson turned into a lothario, and it worries me a bit that Moftiss have referred to him as a "ladies' man" and then giggled like schoolboys.

 

[J.P.]

John being - as someone called it - a skirt chaser - is something I've always had a problem to buy. Maybe it's just me, but Martin cannot convince me in this case. I was always kind of wondering what those women are doing around him. 

 

But character-wise, I think John is quite a hopeless case... 

 

 

Wonder what Mary would say...

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree that John isn't exactly a skirt-chaser -- but frankly, I don't think he needs to acquire any "pickup skills" in order to attract women, because he's a genuinely good guy, and really comes across that way.  For example, it's easy enough (for me, at least) to see why Sarah was attracted to him, even though -- or perhaps because -- they met on the job, when he was not in pickup mode (which he really isn't very good at).  (Added: And he hasn't actually had all that many girlfriends -- over three or four years, the only ones we have any indication of are Sarah, the one with the spots, the one with the nose, Jeanette, and Mary.  Sherlock seems to think he's got lots of girlfriends, but by Sherlock's standards, five would be "lots.")

 

I love that look of feigned innocence (from the scene where Sherlock is "proposing" to Janine over the closed-circuit TV in CAM's building).  It's just one more instance of "John is a lousy liar."

 

[Arcadia]

Good grief, he's cute as a bug, who wouldn't be attracted to him! And then when you find out he's a good guy to boot, hey, I'd be sold. I don't even blame Sherlock for John's failure to keep girls; I just don't think he'd found the right one yet. The right one would have accepted Sherlock too.

 

Of course Mary came along when he was quite vulnerable, we may find out she's not really the one either. Although I think she's perfect for him, actually, except for the former assassin thing. Bit awkward, that. :p

[Inge l-w]

Dear fellow members, each one of us has their different interpretations of Seasons 1& 2, but we pretty much agree that by Season 3, both creators had realised what has been an ongoing theme about their subtext. We also know that the first thing actors learn in drama school, from Julliard to the RADA, is how to fall so they don't injure themselves basically.

Can anyone explain why it was deemed necessary for a half-drunk (beschiwpst) Sherlock to fall in SoT in such a position? Subtext, disingenuousness or hypocrisy, take your pick!

Secondly, dear Carol, the Fifth Northumberland Fusiliers are the Home Reserve battalion of the Royal fusiliers, their quick March is The British Grenadiers, their slow march is Rule Britannia, their Honourary Colonel is the Duke of Kent, their official celebration is St. George's Day and Minden, and the Third Battalion actually was deployed in Afghanistan in 2006.

[Arcadia]

Can anyone explain why it was deemed necessary for a half-drunk (beschiwpst) Sherlock to fall in SoT in such a position? Subtext, disingenuousness or hypocrisy, take your pick!

Because it was the funniest thing they could think of?

 

ADDED:

Oh, wait, my mistake: they got it straight from canon! Observe....

 

[Arcadia]

Subtext? I got your subtext, right here... ! :D

 

[T.o.b.y]

I particularly like "my suit is worth more than your kidneys".

 

Someone was mentioning Mary somewhere around here lately... I am too tired and lazy to look it up an quote it (be lenient with me  - I worked 13 hours today without a pee or a proper meal), but I remember I immediately thought Mary is perfect for John not in spite of the assassin thing, but because of it. John would never be truly happy with someone "ordinary". He'd pretend he was, he'd want to be, but he wouldn't. She is right - Mary, the real Mary, is indeed "what he likes".

 

I like how it doesn't work out that John can have his nice home and be bored with it and then run off with Sherlock on a case and get annoyed with him and go back to his wife until he's bored again and so on.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

You can anagram "Holmes and Watson" to "Womanless and Hot" :lol:

[SherlockedCAMPer]

You can anagram "Holmes and Watson" to "Womanless and Hot" :lol:

 

That definitely describes Holmes and has described Watson in half the episodes before S3.

[Arcadia]

I particularly like "my suit is worth more than your kidneys".

 

Someone was mentioning Mary somewhere around here lately... I am too tired and lazy to look it up an quote it (be lenient with me  - I worked 13 hours today without a pee or a proper meal), but I remember I immediately thought Mary is perfect for John not in spite of the assassin thing, but because of it. John would never be truly happy with someone "ordinary". He'd pretend he was, he'd want to be, but he wouldn't. She is right - Mary, the real Mary, is indeed "what he likes".

 

Dat wuz me. I guess you're right, but it's still danged inconvenient. :P

[Arcadia]

You can anagram "Holmes and Watson" to "Womanless and Hot" :lol:

 

Kids these days... :facepalm:

[Arcadia]

Forget canon, here's the REAL inspiration for the drunk scene....

 

[Inge l-w]

So, we come full circle to 'is it intentional or not' , 'hypocritical or disingenuous', but if the creators are still playing games, they should not complain if the rest of the fan world joins in!

After all, a fictional character is a puppet, with or without strings, and the original copyright has expired for the bulk of the stories. And having to wade through AoO is a 'fascinating' experience, coming back to dear Boton's X-rated fan fiction thread. I have acquired a lot of new net expressions I had no idea existed! Quite a learning curve, thanks to the creators' deliberately ambiguous perception. Character assassination by way of a successful fan fiction story arc! Way to go, Messrs. Moffat and Gatiss!

[jadpdr]

Admittedly, this is fun to conjecture and speculate, but I should think the two most famous and successful fanboys in the Sherlock Holmes universe would have shown slightly more respect for the main character, at least!

Sometimes it seems safer to stay firmly entrenched in the Victorian and Eswardian eras and avoid modernization if it means ridiculing one of your favourite characters in crime fiction. I have come to realize that people want him paired with either John or Molly, depending on subtext ( by the way, in clear text, I would feel no compunction punching both the creators in the face for what they have done to my favourite detective of all ages), but in a straight relationship wouldn't Donovan make more sense? She can understand him and his moods, she is a professional and knows about his quirks and vulnerability, and she can definitely take care of herself.

[Shadow Dweller]

Sally Donovan? Even in ASiP where we get impression that both of them are not stranger to each other, Sally Donovan called Sherlock 'Freak' and warned John Watson that one day when solving murders is no longer enough - Sherlock will commit it himself. That smack of envy/hatred/humiliated/insecurity. Besides, she used to sleep with Anderson. Her choice of 'partner' speak for her preference itself.

[Arcadia]

Admittedly, this is fun to conjecture and speculate, but I should think the two most famous and successful fanboys in the Sherlock Holmes universe would have shown slightly more respect for the main character, at least!

They are also British, with that famous self-deprecating British sense of humor! I think they're more interested in recreating the fun they had as kids when reading ACD, than in respecting ... well, anything! :P

 

Sometimes it seems safer to stay firmly entrenched in the Victorian and Eswardian eras and avoid modernization if it means ridiculing one of your favourite characters in crime fiction. I have come to realize that people want him paired with either John or Molly, depending on subtext ( by the way, in clear text, I would feel no compunction punching both the creators in the face for what they have done to my favourite detective of all ages), but in a straight relationship wouldn't Donovan make more sense? She can understand him and his moods, she is a professional and knows about his quirks and vulnerability, and she can definitely take care of herself.

 

You know, I think you're on to something. She could handle him! (And I've seen more than one fanfic pairing them, too.)

 

I actually don't want him paired with anyone; or at least, not anyone in particular. I just want him to be happy in the end. Because I'm a sentimental bag of goo. ;)

[T.o.b.y]

but in a straight relationship wouldn't Donovan make more sense?

 

Um... no? Not to me at least...

 

I think if we're talking about anything sexual, Irene makes the most sense. She is The Woman, that is her role. If we're going for an emotional bond, I think the most logical solution is John, only I don't see the boys being physically attracted to each other at all. Neither do I get the impression that Sherlock sees much to tempt him in Molly, although he does value her very much and I think he's a bit in love with her love for him.

 

I hate to say this, but Janine would probably not be a bad girlfriend for Sherlock either. She doesn't seem very clingy and I have a feeling she'd be easy-going and not take all the horrible stuff he says sometimes very much to heart.

 

Ugh, I don't want to think about that, though. I just want Sherlock to stay single.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... the Fifth Northumberland Fusiliers are the Home Reserve battalion of the Royal fusiliers, their quick March is The British Grenadiers, their slow march is Rule Britannia, their Honourary Colonel is the Duke of Kent, their official celebration is St. George's Day and Minden, and the Third Battalion actually was deployed in Afghanistan in 2006.

 

I was just going by something I'd read, perhaps this:

 

The

Royal Northumberland Fusiliers

was an

infantry

regiment

of the

British Army

. Originally raised in 1674 as the

5th Regiment of Foot

, it was given the regional designation 'Northumberland' in 1782 and granted the distinction of being a Fusilier regiment in 1836, becoming

5th (Northumberland Fusiliers) Regiment of Foot

. The regiment adopted the title

Northumberland Fusiliers

when regimental numbers were abolished under the

Childers reforms

of 1881 and became a 'Royal' regiment in 1935. In 1968, the

Royal Northumberland Fusiliers

were amalgamated with three other

fusilier

regiments to form the

Royal Regiment of Fusiliers

.

 

So yes, there is apparently still a modern-day successor to the Fifth Northumberland Fusiliers -- but nothing with that actual name has existed since shortly after Dr. Watson was invalided home from the Second Afghan War in 1880.

 

Subtext? I got your subtext, right here... ! :D

 

 

 

Geez, guys -- it's spelt W-H-O-A.

[Tunguska]

I have to ask, Inge l-w and jadpdr - you seem to detest the writers so strongly, you bring it up in every other thread. You claim the character of Sherlock was treated disrespectfully and wrongfully which to me sounds like you don't agree with the interpretation in the current show at all. Then what do you actually like so much about BBC Sherlock that you spend so much time on a forum dedicated to it?

 

To be completely honest, I'm getting a bit tired of reading how terrible it all is while I come here to appreciate this series (and its many flaws) with other fans. But I may be completely wrong in interpeting your posts so if you feel like it, please explain, because I'm confused.

[Inge l-w]

Oh, the show is fun, light-hearted and effervescent! It is much better shot than all the other drivel on TV, it is beautifully edited, the music is delightful, the actors are doing an impressively good job with the material they have been given.

The material itself is what bothers me, personally. I have never been a fan girl type, but I do enjoy a good subject, and this is a forum for discussion and speculation, is it not?