Episode 2.1, "A Scandal In Belgravia"

[Carol the Dabbler]

Not really.  You may be absolutely right in-universe -- maybe Mycroft was making sure that Sherlock had enough motivation to get the phone unlocked.  I'm just awfully skeptical sometimes!

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Hey, you know what they say about skeptics, it's a healthy frame of mind. Sometimes I think I'm not analytical enough. Kind of stick to the surface stuff. Take things at face value....although with Sherlock Holmes that pretty much a mistake.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I guess the trick is to know when to take things at face value (most of the time?) and when to be skeptical.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

That's the ticket.

[miltk]

/>

 

Holmes is appalled at his own crass behavior toward Molly and apologizes (I love Watson's expression in the background).

 

/>He looks a bit like... "Who are you and what have you done with Sherlock Holmes????"

 

At the beginning of the shot, John has his head bowed slightly (moaning inwardly?), then in rapid succession

• his head snaps back up,
• he looks at Molly,
• he looks at Sherlock, and
• he cocks his head quizzically.

Martin Freeman delivers this sequence so smoothly that I had never noticed the complexity till we were watching the PBS broadcast last week.

 

Earlier in the same scene, when Greg Lestrade is telling Molly that he and his wife are back together ("all sorted"), his head shakes just the slightest bit "no" -- a nice touch by Rupert Graves.

 

I do believe that one reason Sherlock just gets better with repeated viewing is the richness of detail in all aspects of the production.

martin freeman has this way of acting that completely engages other actors and his double takes are the best in the business. i think he did killer work in "the office" with this style.

[T.o.b.y]

 

As for Irene. I think he may well have been very attracted to her mind. She challenged him. And as is said, brainy is the new sexy. However, the way he acts around her, to me, doesn't imply a physical attraction. He looks at her and analysis her, takes her in. Sherlock notices the state of a woman's nails and how they relate to her worklife, I don't think it's too odd to think if a woman presented herself naked and he had trouble reading her, that he would look for all of the information he could to store to go over later. I always say Sherlock and Irene as a love of the challenge and wits than a physical attraction.

 

I think he was definitely attracted to her mind, but to her body as well. In the scene where she drugs and beats him, when he's lying on the floor and she caresses his face with the end of her whip, I think the expression on his face is just like that of a man having sex.

 

Also, I don't think he would have been quite so bitter about the chemistry of love in the end if he himself had not been a "victim" of that.

 

Sherlock probably has some kind of "issues" with sex and I do think it is entirely possible that he really is a virgin, but I don't think he's supposed to be asexual. He probably tried to suppress that side of himself because he thought it would get in the way of his beloved work.

 

In the end, this is one of the things I don't really want to know for sure. I don't want to know what really happened in Karachi either.

[Ally.C]

 

 

As for Irene. I think he may well have been very attracted to her mind. She challenged him. And as is said, brainy is the new sexy. However, the way he acts around her, to me, doesn't imply a physical attraction. He looks at her and analysis her, takes her in. Sherlock notices the state of a woman's nails and how they relate to her worklife, I don't think it's too odd to think if a woman presented herself naked and he had trouble reading her, that he would look for all of the information he could to store to go over later. I always say Sherlock and Irene as a love of the challenge and wits than a physical attraction.

 

I think he was definitely attracted to her mind, but to her body as well. In the scene where she drugs and beats him, when he's lying on the floor and she caresses his face with the end of her whip, I think the expression on his face is just like that of a man having sex.

 

Also, I don't think he would have been quite so bitter about the chemistry of love in the end if he himself had not been a "victim" of that.

 

Sherlock probably has some kind of "issues" with sex and I do think it is entirely possible that he really is a virgin, but I don't think he's supposed to be asexual. He probably tried to suppress that side of himself because he thought it would get in the way of his beloved work.

 

In the end, this is one of the things I don't really want to know for sure. I don't want to know what really happened in Karachi either.

 

 

See, and I think that's perhaps just a disagreement on how it's scene? I don't see an expression that makes me think of sex. I see someone clearly drugged and trying to fight it. Haha.

 

Now, I never said there was no victim of love. Love and Sex are very much not the same thing, I even mentioned Sherlock being romantic and having such feeligns for Irene.

 

I think one of the things about Sherlock's sexuality is that it's viewed differently by people in production. BC seems to be a bit of an Adlock shipper, but Gatiss (I think? Maybe Moffat, but I'm leaning towards Gatiss. Unfortunately I'm not really in a place to be googling words that might give some improper results) has previously said Sherlock is meant to be asexual. With something like this, there can be some mixed signals in portrayl. Especially with three writers.

 

I think Karachi is BC's little mindfic.  But I agree, I think the abiguity is part of the charm! Leads to lovely little conversations like this and let's everyone have their cake and eat it too.

[T.o.b.y]

 

I think one of the things about Sherlock's sexuality is that it's viewed differently by people in production. BC seems to be a bit of an Adlock shipper, but Gatiss (I think? Maybe Moffat, but I'm leaning towards Gatiss. Unfortunately I'm not really in a place to be googling words that might give some improper results) has previously said Sherlock is meant to be asexual. With something like this, there can be some mixed signals in portrayl. Especially with three writers.

 

I think Karachi is BC's little mindfic.  But I agree, I think the abiguity is part of the charm! Leads to lovely little conversations like this and let's everyone have their cake and eat it too.

 

You can say that last bit again...

 

That's a really interesting thought, that maybe the creators of the show are not in complete agreement on Sherlock's character. I wish they'd talk about that in some interview some day. It would explain a lot if it were true.

[mxmarg]

Hello! I love you won't you tell me your name?      Actually I already know everyone's handles and that will do splendidly! 

This discussion is better than having your cake and eating it too!  I've only just been bitten by the BBC's Sherlock.  I'm in this glorious place where I haven't seen all the episodes yet.  The anticipation!  I suspect I will cave and watch the next: Reichenbach Fall sooner than later.  I've been relishing going over previous episodes with a fine tooth comb and that marvelous transcript work!
Capital "A" Adored Jeremy Brett's version and since i have that pretty much entire work in my background I have absolutely delighted in how this series toys with our expectations.  ...Like a cat with a mouse. 

Belgravia is the fave episode so far.  Thanks so much for clarifying the British definition of "pants" earlier!  Yes, it does make it far funnier to know it means "underwear" to Americans!  I knew I was missing things like that because of coming from this side of the pond!

Help me on this point: "shipper" ?  I've got the context but not the whole meaning.

 

I prefer to take the last moments of the episode as a flight of fancy from Moffit and Gatniss.  (did I see a blended-word name for that team?)  Meaning that it wasn't a fantasy, Sherlock was indeed in Karachi and helped her escape her beheading.  With logistics so improbable, they don't bother weighing the thing down with factual evidence of how such an event occured.  Throwing in the quote "When I say run, Run!" from Dr. Who says this is scene is a wink of the eye.  They're inviting us to follow them down this fun, crazy little path and just go along this fantastical possibility (like we've gone along with the whole supremely kooky Dr. Who concept).  I've already drunk their cool-aid, I don't mind following them down that path one bit

 

Why am I ok with Sherlock saving her life at this point?  I like to think when Sherlock, John and Moriarty were back at the pool it was Irene who made the phone ring (Stayin' Alive) thus giving Moriaty and then Sherlock and John a way out of the stalemate. She saved him, he saved her.  I feel Moffit and Gatniss made an elegant little package there complete with a bow on top.  

 

Did y'all catch Sherlock calling "Laters!" over his shoulder as he departed, now dressed, from the palace?  The only place I've heard "Laters" is from Fifty Shades of Grey!

Familiar though I may be with Fifty Shades, what is the "Belgravia" reference?

 

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Why am I ok with Sherlock saving her life at this point?  I like to think when Sherlock, John and Moriarty were back at the pool it was Irene who made the phone ring (Stayin' Alive) thus giving Moriaty and then Sherlock and John a way out of the stalemate. She saved him, he saved her.  I feel Moffit and Gatniss made an elegant little package there complete with a bow on top.  

 

 

  I think that you are right on this score. Since "The Great Game" leads immediately into "SiB"  and we know that "The Woman" was in contact with Jim 'from IT' Moriarty, it's pretty clear that it was her who called and saved Sherlock from pulling the trigger on that vest.

 

  And since it has been confirmed that Irene Adler sent Sherlock a gift in "His Last Vow" we now know that his saving Irene Adler at the end of "SiB" wasn't just a dream sequence Sherlock was having. He was indeed in Karachi.

[Pamela]

mxmarg:  I've noticed around here they call Moffat and Gatiss "Moftiss."  Nice, huh?

 

And I'm not sure about the real meaning of the word "shipper" myself.  Probably because I'm of the <ahem> older generation.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

And I'm not sure about the real meaning of the word "shipper" myself.  Probably because I'm of the <ahem> older generation.

 

  A "shipper" is someone who writes or believes in relationships between the main characters and someone else. It's just a code word, shorthand...what ever that is called.

[Caya]

Hello and welcome to the forum, Margaret!

 

I kinda envy you having episodes yet unseen . Be sure to come around and let us know what you thought of them when you saw them - series 3 has produced a pretty spirited discussion, to put it mildly .

[T.o.b.y]

I think we are pretty mild... I never hung out on a discussion forum before, but from what I've seen in the "comments" sections on websites, I'd say we are fairly civilized around here.

[Caya]

Well this is a forum about a British show, after all . But yeah, I meant spirited by local standards .

[Carol the Dabbler]

... Help me on this point: "shipper" ?  I've got the context but not the whole meaning....

 

... Throwing in the quote "When I say run, Run!" from Dr. Who says this is scene is a wink of the eye....

 

... what is the "Belgravia" reference?

I may not be able to tell you much more than you've already deduced, but my understanding is that a "shipper" is someone whose private take on a television program (or whatever) is that two of the characters are romantically / sexually involved, even though there's nothing explicitly to that effect in the episodes. Such persons tend to see a lot of hints and clues in the show. For example, the most common type of shipper in the Sherlock context is a "Johnlock" shipper, who believes (or perhaps merely hopes) that John and Sherlock are getting it on behind the scenes.

 

I wasn't aware that was a Who quote.  Interesting.  I do kinda wish they'd keep their universes separate, though.

 

This episode was loosely based on a Conan Doyle story called "A Scandal in Bohemia."  Since Irene's clients tended to be the sort of upper-crust people who apparently live in the Belgravia section of London, they made kind of a pun by substituting "Belgravia" for "Bohemia" in the title.

 

... And since it has been confirmed that Irene Adler sent Sherlock a gift in "His Last Vow" we now know that his saving Irene Adler at the end of "SiB" wasn't just a dream sequence Sherlock was having. He was indeed in Karachi.

To be more precise, we now know that Irene is still alive

 

I sometimes wonder whether Mycroft made up the story about her being beheaded in Karachi, and she really was over here in the witness protection program. Why would Mycroft do that? Well, the Holmes family sport seems to be Keeping John in the Dark, so why not?

[mxmarg]

Thank goodness there's no snarkfest here! 

 

aaaah, Belgravia is a ridiculously expensive residential district in London... That makes sense.

 

I wonder if there's a cultural difference here:  to my mind, "begging" means pretty close to groveling.  In the English culture is simply saying "Please" upon request to beg for something considered begging?

 

It struck me that all Irene Adler had to do to beg at the end was say "Please".  I thought, THAT'S IT?!

 

In reading this thread it occurred to me, Irene said she'd get Sherlock to beg (twice).  He said something to the effect of how he had never begged before.  So at the end when Sherlock indicates to John that he wants Irene's phone and John waffles, Sherlock says "Please".  Do you think she got him to beg after all? 

[Pamela]

 

 

I sometimes wonder whether Mycroft made up the story about her being beheaded in Karachi, and she really was over here in the witness protection program. Why would Mycroft do that? Well, the Holmes family sport seems to be Keeping John in the Dark, so why not?

 

I actually would prefer to believe that scenario, rather than Sherlock saving her in Karachi.

 

You're right, there's just no trusting anything Mycroft says, is there?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Also, letting John think she's dead may well be canon.  In the original "Scandal," Watson refers to her as "... the late Irene Adler, of dubious and questionable memory."  Now I'm beginning to wonder about that Mycroft!
 

...  to my mind, "begging" means pretty close to groveling.  In the English culture is simply saying "Please" upon request to beg for something considered begging?
 
It struck me that all Irene Adler had to do to beg at the end was say "Please".  I thought, THAT'S IT?!
 
In reading this thread it occurred to me, Irene said she'd get Sherlock to beg (twice).  He said something to the effect of how he had never begged before.  So at the end when Sherlock indicates to John that he wants Irene's phone and John waffles, Sherlock says "Please".  Do you think she got him to beg after all? 

I suspect that was about as close as Irene had ever come to begging.  But it didn't seem sufficient to evoke any pity from the Holmes brothers, so I'd say that was just Irene, rather than a cultural difference.

 

And that was also pretty extreme begging from Sherlock -- but it wasn't Irene that got him to do it, it was John.  Apparently his "nice" lessons are starting to pay off!

 

[mxmarg]

I thought it was very intentional that Moftiss had Sherlock say please after his telling Irene he never begged.  And that it was all about Irene that he did it!

[Pamela]

I thought it was very intentional that Moftiss had Sherlock say please after his telling Irene he never begged.  And that it was all about Irene that he did it!

Ooh, good one, Margaret!  He may have said it to John, but Irene was the cause of it.

 

I like it!

[T.o.b.y]

Sherlock and the word "please" is a perfect example of how he has learned socially acceptable behavior, but not necessarily developed the mindset that usually goes with it. I think when he says "please" and John relents and gives him the phone, Sherlock's brain makes the connection "Oh - if I say that, people give me anything I want. Great". And it works! As we saw in series 3

 

it even got him a visit from a helicopter.

 

[Pamela]

Sherlock and the word "please" is a perfect example of how he has learned socially acceptable behavior, but not necessarily developed the mindset that usually goes with it. I think when he says "please" and John relents and gives him the phone, Sherlock's brain makes the connection "Oh - if I say that, people give me anything I want. Great". And it works! As we saw in series 3

 

it even got him a visit from a helicopter.

 

Yep.  As I've said before (somewhere), he's in some ways such a child.  That's what children do.  "Oh, if I do (say) this, I get this."

 

Come to think of it, that's confirmed with his conversation with Archie in Sign of Three.

 

 

 

Sherlock:  You have to wear the suit.

Archie:  Why?

Sherlock:  Grown-ups like that.

Archie:  Why?

Sherlock:  I don't know.  I'll ask one.

 

 

[mxmarg]

You guys are SO SWEET to cover up the season 3 spoilers.    Thank you!

 

I look forward to catching the inference when I see it!

I've watch seasons 1 & 2 from netflix.  Season 3 isn't on netflix so I'm in the process of figuring out how I might get the season onto my tv from Amazon.    I'm going to have to find a death frisbee to put on to sleuth this one out ...  

 

Pamela I love your Jeremy Brett pic!   Imagine the teenager that I was being ga-ga about Jeremy Brett!  The man had it going on and it was such a sorry day when he passed. Nice to see him again thanks to you.

[Pamela]

You guys are SO SWEET to cover up the season 3 spoilers.    Thank you!

 

I look forward to catching the inference when I see it!

I've watch seasons 1 & 2 from netflix.  Season 3 isn't on netflix so I'm in the process of figuring out how I might get the season onto my tv from Amazon.    I'm going to have to find a death frisbee to put on to sleuth this one out ...  

 

Pamela I love your Jeremy Brett pic!   Imagine the teenager that I was being ga-ga about Jeremy Brett!  The man had it going on and it was such a sorry day when he passed. Nice to see him again thanks to you.

Thanks!  I googled "Jeremy Brett images" and found tons of them!  And that was my favorite.  Well, one of them.