Episode 2.1, "A Scandal In Belgravia"

[Arcadia]

Because "attacked by an American" sounds funnier?

[Schlauer Fuchs]

Thank you for those explanations, Boton and Carol!

 

I thought about this a great deal and I think this scene+your views on it must tell me something about how I have been "shaped" and probably blinded by the media. Many films and series I've ever seen use a common pattern which is that when nationalities are concerned, Americans are the "good guys" and especially Russians are the "bad guys". I think I have internalised that pattern. Therefore I never thought Sherlock could say "American" to stress how bad the situation really was, because "American" usually means "good". So I thought of it as just a factual description of the situation. Had he said "by a Russian", I would have interpreted it the way you have: stressing how bad the situation (and the man himself) really was. But it seems I'm the only one who has been conditioned like this, and you guys can see that "American" here may imply something bad. Really, this is an eye-opener about my unconscious concept of nationalities in films (and only films!).

[Boton]

Thank you for those explanations, Boton and Carol!

 

I thought about this a great deal and I think this scene+your views on it must tell me something about how I have been "shaped" and probably blinded by the media. Many films and series I've ever seen use a common pattern which is that when nationalities are concerned, Americans are the "good guys" and especially Russians are the "bad guys". I think I have internalised that pattern. Therefore I never thought Sherlock could say "American" to stress how bad the situation really was, because "American" usually means "good". So I thought of it as just a factual description of the situation. Had he said "by a Russian", I would have interpreted it the way you have: stressing how bad the situation (and the man himself) really was. But it seems I'm the only one who has been conditioned like this, and you guys can see that "American" here may imply something bad. Really, this is an eye-opener about my unconscious concept of nationalities in films (and only films!).

 

 

I think this is a really good point, and I am so grateful for this discussion.  Last night, I pondered pretty much the opposite thing, from my own perspective -- I wondered if, as Americans, we are so used to having "Americans" cast as the good guy that we are overly sensitive to situations in which being American is not portrayed as a plus.  

 

I love these forums.  It's so wonderful to get the perspective of a lot of intelligent people from around the globe.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

... Many films and series I've ever seen use a common pattern which is that when nationalities are concerned, Americans are the "good guys" and especially Russians are the "bad guys". I think I have internalised that pattern. Therefore I never thought Sherlock could say "American" to stress how bad the situation really was....

 

I think this is a really good point, and I am so grateful for this discussion.  Last night, I pondered pretty much the opposite thing, from my own perspective -- I wondered if, as Americans, we are so used to having "Americans" cast as the good guy that we are overly sensitive to situations in which being American is not portrayed as a plus....

I agree.  I would not necessarily say "overly sensitive," but sensitive, yes, in the sense that we tend to notice such things because they're not what we're used to seeing.  It can be a bit of a shock.

 

But beyond simply not showing them as the eternal good guys, it seems to me that British film and television can exhibit a certain animosity toward Americans.  I'm thinking particularly of this scene in "Scandal" and also the whole PM-vs-President plot thread in Love Actually.

 

It is, of course, human nature to resent the major player in any game.  But it seems to me that the US government is caught in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation.  Whenever there's a problem in the world, people abroad (as well as here) are simultaneously calling for the US government to do something and to mind its own business.  While I don't agree with all the decisions that the government makes on my behalf (not by a long shot!), I am certainly glad that I'm not the one being asked to make them.

 

[sittything]

There's the sorta standoff between the American president and the British PM in Doctor Who too with who's going to speak for planet earth.  The American president flies in and basically takes over the show all smug and arrogant like.  This was the ep with the other time lord.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I haven't seen that one, but yeah, that seems to be a somewhat common British stereotype of Americans -- we're all smug and arrogant with perfect tans and nice even pearly teeth.

 

[Schlauer Fuchs]

I'm walking on thin ice here since I'm neither American nor English, but I find this discussions about American baddies ("baddies" in a broader sense) in English television amusing, because I had to think of this interview immediately:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3QtaBUkPaM

(see from 00:50)

[Boton]

I'm walking on thin ice here since I'm neither American nor English, but I find this discussions about American baddies ("baddies" in a broader sense) in English television amusing, because I had to think of this interview immediately:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3QtaBUkPaM

(see from 00:50)

 

I've seen that clip before.  It cracks me up, but I haven't the slightest idea in what way Americans are vowels and Brits are consonants.  Then again, maybe I'm not intelligent enough.  

 

Considering that I think they were talking about BC's role as Khan, I feel like it means very little that it was an American-made film and BC is British.  I feel like it had a lot to do with the fact that the original Khan Noonien Singh was Middle Eastern at a time that that seemed very exotic, and to cast a Middle Eastern Khan right now in the current political climate would be touchy.  I feel like BC was cast because he can look and sound relatively alien and otherworldly. 

[sittything]

Thoughts on the video:

 

1.) Sherlock hair!  The curls definitely make him look younger.

 

2.) Do we Americans often cast British people as villains?  I'm trying to think of other examples now.  I think more recent villains like Kahn and Loki are more a function of how damn good those actors are at playing villains.  I do think the British accent adds a level of sophistication and coolness (as in cold, stoic) to the parts, but I think I've attributed it more to Benedict and Hiddleston being fabulous than anything else.  Like Hugh Grant would make an awful villain, just terrible.  lol

 

3.) I want a British accent.  I always feel like we American sound so crass in comparison. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

American producers certainly don't shy away from casting British actors/actresses as villains -- for example, I really liked Malcolm McDowell in Star Trek: Generations -- but when I watch those movies and tv shows, it seems to me that the bad guy just happens to be British.  I don't detect even a hint of animosity toward British people in general.  Am I missing something?

 

[T.o.b.y]

I know I have this lazy way of explaining everything with "well, it's like that in the original", but the Doyle stories and the old Sherlock Holmes were a bit anti-American. Or rather, they were very, very pro-British. Which is actually one of the things that bothers me about them, I always felt that for Sherlock Holmes to be patriotic was rather out of character and that Doyle was only writing him that way to promote his own ideals, at the expense of Holmes' characterization.

 

There is one story where Holmes says

 

"It is always a joy to meet an American, Mr. Moulton, for I am one of those who believe that the folly of a monarch and the blundering of a minister in far-gone years will not prevent our children from being some day citizens of the same world-wide country under a flag which shall be a quartering of the Union Jack with the Stars and Stripes.”

 

But that sounds as if he wishes to undo the American independence and enlarge the Commonwealth, so I wouldn't really call it America-friendly, either.

[Arcadia]

I haven't seen that one, but yeah, that seems to be a somewhat common British stereotype of Americans -- we're all smug and arrogant with beautiful tans and nice even pearly teeth.

Well, aren't we?

 

This reminds me of something I read back in the '80's; some Japanese companies had training programs for their employees on how to behave around Americans. One of the things they taught was ... don't offer to have sex with the female executives. Just because women in American movies seemed happy to hop into bed with any man who asked, didn't mean real American women were like that.

[Carol the Dabbler]

We're not? 

 

[Arcadia]

American producers certainly don't shy away from casting British actors/actresses as villains -- for example, I really liked Malcolm McDowell in Star Trek: Generations -- but when I watch those movies and tv shows, it seems to me that the bad guy just happens to be British. I don't detect even a hint of animosity toward British people in general. Am I missing something?

For me, it depends on the show ... if it's fantasy or sci fi, for example, I think I just assume the British accent is shorthand for "other-ness;" that is, not of the hero's world, but not specifically British.

 

Also, I think the British accent sounds more educated to the American ear, and every American knows that highly educated people can't be trusted. They might know something you don't .....

 

We're not?

Hey, I'm just reporting what I read.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... if it's fantasy or sci fi, for example, I think I just assume the British accent is shorthand for "other-ness;" that is, not of the hero's world, but not specifically British.

When Cecil B. DeMille did his second Ten Commandments movie (the one with Charlton Heston), he wanted to differentiate between the two ethnic groups, so he cast British actors to play the Egyptians and Americans to play the Hebrew slaves.  (Of course, the film kinda sided with the Hebrews, so I guess the British actors were playing villains by default.)

 

Also, I think the British accent sounds more educated to the American ear, and every American knows that highly educated people can't be trusted. They might know something you don't .....

 

I know what you mean, but I wouldn't say "highly educated" -- more like "refined" or "cultured" (or even "snobby").  But that's primarily the "English butler" accent.  There are plenty of other British accents that just sound -- uhh, British to me.

 

[Arcadia]

 

....and every American knows that highly educated people can't be trusted.....

I know what you mean, but I wouldn't say "highly educated" -- more like "refined" or "cultured" (or even "snobby")....

 

Yo, dude, we don't trust any o' dem, neither.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I do think that's true of Americans to a certain extent.  The frontier isn't all that far behind us.

 

[Arcadia]

Hm, is that the reason? Yeah, I guess I can see that.

 

When I was a kid, it seemed like everyone for whom English was a second language, spoke it with a British accent. Now it seems like everyone speaks it with an American accent. Does anyone else notice that? (Is anyone else here OLD enough to notice that?) If it's true, I wonder if I grew up now, if the American accent would sound more sophisticated to me.

 

A couple of those sentences are so contorted.... Boton, help!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yeah, guess I'm old enough too.  In fact, I still know several non-native English speakers who basically follow British pronunciation.  One is German, another is from Hong Kong, and a number are from India (where the pronunciation is understandably more British than American -- but definitely sui generis).  None of them are all that young, though -- mostly fifties and sixties, I think, and most of them have probably been here since college.

 

Actually, I can't offhand think of any non-natives I know who speak English with an American accent -- or maybe I do, but simply never noticed because they sound so "normal"!  But I have heard that American English teachers are in great demand in certain countries where British English used to be the standard.

 

I can't imagine Hoosier English sounding sophisticated under any circumstances -- but we do somehow manage to communicate!

 

[Arcadia]

Well, I'm generalizing, of course. But I think I noticed it first on the news ... especially with Indians, I was so accustomed to them having British accents that it really struck me. Now I'll have to try to pay more attention and see just how MUCH I'm generalizing....

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I still notice a lot of the British English with foreigners that learned before coming to the US. If they are learning English in the US then some might have a slight British accent to their English depending on the country they came from.

[Schlauer Fuchs]

When I was a kid, it seemed like everyone for whom English was a second language, spoke it with a British accent. Now it seems like everyone speaks it with an American accent. Does anyone else notice that?

 

I can't really judge that for 1) I'm only 25 and thus definitely not old enough to notice, and 2) even if I was old enough, I wouldn't notice since I don't live in an English-speaking country and people neither talk in British nor American English over here But I could provide my opinion as an outside eye:

I think your observation might well be true for Germany. Here, students can choose if they want to speak British or American English. Although I didn't conduct a survey, my experience tells me the majority are more attracted to American English because it sounds more like the cool films, songs, computer games etc. that are part of popular (youth) culture. America, for the younger generations at the very least, has more the image of the cool/fun state, whereas England is the more tradtitional and "cultural" country. So it's easily understandable that kids are often more attracted to the US. However, they only learn that there is a difference between American and British English in 7th grade. Before that, there is only one English and that is British English. Again however: Whether the English they learn before grade 7 really is British English, or rather British English words with American English pronunciation, wholly depends on the teacher; for usually teachers have either a more British or a more American accent, and though they might be able to switch to some degree, it's usually easy to detect if their English is more influenced by British or American English. It's just not possible for one person to teach "two languages" on the same level to the same people at the same time. So in the end, students are dependent on a) which variety of English their teachers prefer and on their own study if they want to learn a variety of English that differs from their teachers' own preference.

 

BTW, a short anecdote that might emphasize the different images of American and British English: When I was in school, "to dance" was one of the first words of which we learnt both the American and the British English pronunciation. But in my head, I always associated American "to dance" with disco-like dancing (shaking) and British "to dance" with classical and professional/skillful dances like waltz. That's only me of course, but that's how the different images of the US and Britain (esp. England) did (or at least used to) shape my perception of both varieties of English.

[Carol the Dabbler]

When I was in school, "to dance" was one of the first words of which we learnt both the American and the British English pronunciation. But in my head, I always associated American "to dance" with disco-like dancing (shaking) and British "to dance" with classical and professional/skillful dances like waltz. That's only me of course, but that's how the different images of the US and Britain (esp. England) did (or at least used to) shape my perception of both varieties of English.

Thanks for your perspective, Schlauer Fuchs. You might be interested to know that my (American) spellchecker flagged one word you use in that paragraph, namely "learnt" (we'd generally say "learned" here).

 

That distinction sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Americans will sometimes use British pronunciation facetiously, to convey the idea of sophistication, ultra-high quality, snobbery, etc. -- for example the classic tomayto / tomahto distinction, or vayss vs vahzz. I think we agree with you that British English sounds more traditional and cultured. It never consciously occurred to me that American English sounds more "cool," but you're right of course, and that's been true here since at least the 60's (cf. The Patty Duke Show) -- though the Beatles were cool too, of course.

 

[sittything]

That's interesting.  I've never mentally separated American English and British English into separate categories.  I've always just thought of them as English, but with different accents and some different spellings (gray/grey, favorite/favourite, theater/theatre).   Oddly enough, even though I'm American, I tend to spell gray as grey.  I have no idea why.  It just looks better somehow, so that's what I do.  lol.  Otherwise I'm a favorite, theater, color kinda girl.

 

I found this an interesting read on American vs British English and how they've both evolved and changed from earlier English:  http://www.pbs.org/speak/ahead/change/ruining/

[Carol the Dabbler]

I found this an interesting read on American vs British English and how they've both evolved and changed from earlier English:  http://www.pbs.org/speak/ahead/change/ruining/

  

Thanks -- that's an interesting article.  I would agree that British and American English are two closely-related dialects of the same language (each with its own sub-dialects, of course).  As you say, the most obvious differences are spelling and pronunciation, but there are also differences in vocabulary and in use of prepositions, contractions, etc.

 

As for the language that they're both dialects of -- I guess that would be roughly Elizabethan English.  The language has changed a great deal since then, on both sides of the pond.  (Londoners don't exactly talk like Shakespeare nowadays.)