Episode 2.1, "A Scandal In Belgravia"

[Boton]

 

 

Uhm no, he never responded with his body & eyes toward Sherlock that he did with the Woman. I implore you to watch that scene again. Much bigger difference than John @ restaurant with Sherlock in SIP, than John on the couch with Irene.

 

Absolutely agree.  John is physically flustered by The Woman.  Sherlock is mentally and intellectually flustered.  They're both responding to her in ways they never respond to each other.  (In Sherlock's case, he even does a quick controlled experiment, looking at John to see if his deductive ability is still there when viewing someone under "normal" conditions, then back to Irene to discover he can't read her because she's disoriented him.)

 

Doesn't Martin Freeman do a fabulous job in that scene?  His eyes just dart from breasts to nether regions back up to eyes a couple of times, like he knows where he wants to look but doesn't want to get caught.  

[sittything]

 

 

 

Uhm no, he never responded with his body & eyes toward Sherlock that he did with the Woman. I implore you to watch that scene again. Much bigger difference than John @ restaurant with Sherlock in SIP, than John on the couch with Irene.

 

Absolutely agree.  John is physically flustered by The Woman.  Sherlock is mentally and intellectually flustered.  They're both responding to her in ways they never respond to each other.  (In Sherlock's case, he even does a quick controlled experiment, looking at John to see if his deductive ability is still there when viewing someone under "normal" conditions, then back to Irene to discover he can't read her because she's disoriented him.)

 

Doesn't Martin Freeman do a fabulous job in that scene?  His eyes just dart from breasts to nether regions back up to eyes a couple of times, like he knows where he wants to look but doesn't want to get caught.  

 

 

This is why I've never understood the whole Johnlock thing.  Bromance sure, but Johnlock... no.

[Caya]

TV Tropes calls that phenomenon (someone you're attracted to despite your normal orientation) If It's You, It's Okay and apparently it's not even that uncommon. But really, please, let's not go there. Everybody has their own interpretation of the Sherlock - John relationship and Johnlock is as valid as any.

[sittything]

Sorry, really wasn't trying to start a debate or insinuate that anyone who feels differently than I do has an invalid opinion.  I'm guessing these are all discussions that have gone 'round and 'round before?  

[Arcadia]

Sorry, really wasn't trying to start a debate or insinuate that anyone who feels differently than I do has an invalid opinion.  I'm guessing these are all discussions that have gone 'round and 'round before?  

More or less, although not as much as you might think given how closely the subject seems to be associated with the show. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it as a topic for discussion, but it is one of the more, er, emotional subjects! I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this forum be deliberately offensive, though. On any subject. Well, okay, I might throw in a couple of swear words from time to time.

[sherlockandjohn]

This is an interesting line from Sherlock: "Look at them. They all care so much. Do you ever wonder if there's something wrong with us?"
I think it shows a measure of rare vulnerability from Sherlock in front of his brother. He always likes to come off as independent and to engage in a battle of wits when it comes to Mycroft. Yet here he is questioning part of the foundation of which they both build their lives. It's rather powerful and emotional.

[Boton]

 

 

This is an interesting line from Sherlock: "Look at them. They all care so much. Do you ever wonder if there's something wrong with us?"

I think it shows a measure of rare vulnerability from Sherlock in front of his brother. He always likes to come off as independent and to engage in a battle of wits when it comes to Mycroft. Yet here he is questioning part of the foundation of which they both build their lives. It's rather powerful and emotional.

 

I love that line.  To me, it's not just the vulnerability; its the beginning of the arc that we see culminate (thus far) by the end of S3.  We establish in S1 that Sherlock lives by his wits and intellect, and then we start making cracks in that facade.  This is the first one; he sees a family in distress because of a lost loved one, and for the first time he realizes that it may not be a deficiency.  It may be a positive norm.  And then, of course, by the end of S3, he is willing to die for his own family (Mary and John being the innermost circle of that).  

[Arcadia]

I'm thinking it started even a little earlier, at the pool, when Sherlock, as awkwardly as was humanly possible, thanked/praised John for being willing to sacrifice himself. And then scratches his idiot head with that silly gun. I almost died right then and there.

[jesskayding]

 

 

 

 

Uhm no, he never responded with his body & eyes toward Sherlock that he did with the Woman. I implore you to watch that scene again. Much bigger difference than John @ restaurant with Sherlock in SIP, than John on the couch with Irene.

Absolutely agree. John is physically flustered by The Woman. Sherlock is mentally and intellectually flustered. They're both responding to her in ways they never respond to each other. (In Sherlock's case, he even does a quick controlled experiment, looking at John to see if his deductive ability is still there when viewing someone under "normal" conditions, then back to Irene to discover he can't read her because she's disoriented him.)

 

Doesn't Martin Freeman do a fabulous job in that scene? His eyes just dart from breasts to nether regions back up to eyes a couple of times, like he knows where he wants to look but doesn't want to get caught.

This is why I've never understood the whole Johnlock thing. Bromance sure, but Johnlock... no.

 

 

 

Right.

[jesskayding]

 

 

This is an interesting line from Sherlock: "Look at them. They all care so much. Do you ever wonder if there's something wrong with us?"

I think it shows a measure of rare vulnerability from Sherlock in front of his brother. He always likes to come off as independent and to engage in a battle of wits when it comes to Mycroft. Yet here he is questioning part of the foundation of which they both build their lives. It's rather powerful and emotional.

I love that line. To me, it's not just the vulnerability; its the beginning of the arc that we see culminate (thus far) by the end of S3. We establish in S1 that Sherlock lives by his wits and intellect, and then we start making cracks in that facade. This is the first one; he sees a family in distress because of a lost loved one, and for the first time he realizes that it may not be a deficiency. It may be a positive norm. And then, of course, by the end of S3, he is willing to die for his own family (Mary and John being the innermost circle of that).

 

 

And he was willing to die for Ms. Adler as well.

[T.o.b.y]

Sorry, really wasn't trying to start a debate or insinuate that anyone who feels differently than I do has an invalid opinion.  I'm guessing these are all discussions that have gone 'round and 'round before?  

 

Oh dear, if I limited myself to subjects we haven't already gone 'round and 'round with, then I might as well shut up. Just go ahead and talk about what you like or would like to debate about, if you ask me.

 

It's just that, well... it is hard to really, really discuss shipping (hey, I've learned to use that word now!), because it's not a matter that people in general are very objective about. I mean, it is by nature wishful thinking. All you can do is "I like this idea" and the next person goes "but I don't, and I like this idea", and then you both go "okay" (or you both start a long pointless argument and insult each other, but in that case, please go elsewhere - the internet seems to have plenty of nooks and corners for people who want to do just that).

 

I admit that now that I have become used to the concept of shipping in general, I find it rather interesting. Why does a certain pairing appeal to certain people and another really doesn't? And Sherlock practically invites this kind of fantasizing on the part of the fans, because we as an audience are so damn used to having "Mr or Ms Right" for our heroes (at least I am), no matter whether they end up in a relationship or no, and Sherlock doesn't get one person assigned like that. Neither do a lot of the minor characters. So I guess our brains desperately try to put that little fictional universe to order, and shipping is the result.

 

If you are interested in musing over the finer points of acting and directing and what that might tell us about the romantic (or other) interests of the characters in the show, there's a thread called "subtext interpretation" somewhere around here. I'd be glad to see you there and I promise to babble at great length about all sorts of things I've said more often than anybody cares already.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sherlock practically invites this kind of fantasizing on the part of the fans, because we as an audience are so damn used to having "Mr or Ms Right" for our heroes (at least I am), no matter whether they end up in a relationship or no, and Sherlock doesn't get one person assigned like that. Neither do a lot of the minor characters. So I guess our brains desperately try to put that little fictional universe to order, and shipping is the result.

Oh, good point! Many of the movies that Alex and I watch feature two people who are obviously meant for each other (whether they realize it or not) and of course they end up together just before the credits roll -- so we're used to that sort of tidy ending. Whereas in Sherlock, nothing is obvious, so our minds try to tidy it up for us.

 

[sittything]

Oh, I know how strongly can feel about shipping or not shipping certain people.   I think X-Files fans were the original shippers, or noromos, and it's still debated to this day even though we now clearly know how that show ended (except maybe Chris Carter).  lol.   I know my teenage ass shipped Mulder and Scully so hard.

 

Overall, I wouldn't say I ship anyone in particular with Sherlock (at least not yet).  I feel bad for Molly, because I can identify with Molly, but I don't think that makes her a good match for Sherlock or vice versa.  I just want Molly to be happy, though, dagnabit!   Too bad Tom was such a dud. 

 

I will say, though, I do agree that the untidiness and vagueness probably feeds a need we have to try to categorize people.  Just look at the all of the discussion on Sherlock's sexuality.  Is he asexual, gay, straight, bi, a virgin, not a virgin? 

 

I will go check out that other thread, though.

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

Oh, I know how strongly can feel about shipping or not shipping certain people.   I think X-Files fans were the original shippers, or noromos, and it's still debated to this day even though we now clearly know how that show ended (except maybe Chris Carter).  lol.   I know my teenage ass shipped Mulder and Scully so hard.

 

Overall, I wouldn't say I ship anyone in particular with Sherlock (at least not yet).  I feel bad for Molly, because I can identify with Molly, but I don't think that makes her a good match for Sherlock or vice versa.  I just want Molly to be happy, though, dagnabit!   Too bad Tom was such a dud. 

 

I will say, though, I do agree that the untidiness and vagueness probably feeds a need we have to try to categorize people.  Just look at the all of the discussion on Sherlock's sexuality.  Is he asexual, gay, straight, bi, a virgin, not a virgin?

 

I just love that "untidiness". It is odd of me to add "because it's like real life", where I am the person who keeps insisting that I turn to fiction because it is not like real life, but so it is. It makes me very, very happy when fictional characters can't be put into categories, when it takes more than a word to describe them. And for Sherlock, you would need so many, may words - and even then, would the description be accurate?

 

Maybe it's my wistful wish that real people would look more closely at real people, too, and not just put them away into some mind palace box with a tidy label and forget about them...

 

This is rambling away from a Scandal in Belgravia, but come to think of it: Is there any "one true pairing" in Sherlock? John and Mary, maybe, but... Mary doesn't really exist, and we don't really know who she is. So not really. Sherlock and Irene? Well, yeah, like John and Mary, they kind of "belong", but the way they were written for each other is that they're not, if you know what I mean. The original Miss Adler got married to someone else, and while Holmes kept her picture, he didn't seem too heartbroken about it all. In this version, she's clearly "The Woman", but not even the two people who know Sherlock best can agree on what that's supposed to mean (by the way, of course it is John who insists "he despised her in the end". John didn't approve of Irene, that's for sure. Maybe she was right, and he did feel a bit jealous. Or he could simply sense somehow that she was merely playing Sherlock and would eventually betray him. Or some other reason).

 

Strangely enough, the truest "true pairing" I see in the series is Sherlock and John - but I don't see anything sexual going on there, nor do I think poor John doesn't deserve to be happily married (I would say he kind of lowered his chances of that all on his own lately, but different story). Then again, the person you sleep with doesn't necessarily have to be the one who is closest to you. I know lots of people whose strongest connection is to a sibling, or an old friend, or even a colleague.

 

To ramble back to the episode, I always feel a bit sorry for Irene. She seems all alone. I doubt her assistant is a real friend to her, like John is to Sherlock. And Moriarty - come on, what an ally to choose. Ugh. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he was at least a little behind her being captured and nearly killed by the terrorists.

 

I also wonder whether at some point, Irene considered not going along with Moriarty's plan but going over to Sherlock's and Mycroft's side. Just briefly, you know.

 

And while I'm wondering: John may not really have been jealous of Irene, but was she jealous of him? Or envious, at least, that Sherlock Holmes, otherwise so much like her, had a friend? After all, it was Irene who noticed "somebody loves you". And then at the end, she provokes Sherlock into making some of his bitterest comments about love.

 

Would Irene and Sherlock have turned out differently if John didn't exist?

 

Oh, and another question: Why did Irene talk to John when she decided she wanted her phone back? Why not to Sherlock directly? I mean, she must have been aware that as soon as John knew she was alive, Sherlock would too, very soon? She didn't actually expect John to keep silent about that? And besides, how did she think John was going to get her phone back from Sherlock, especially without him noticing?

 

Arrrgh. This episode is beautiful, but like so much Sherlock, it leaves me feeling like Anderson with his crazy wall full of notes and string.

 

 

 

[sittything]

[Arcadia]

Oh, and another question: Why did Irene talk to John when she decided she wanted her phone back? Why not to Sherlock directly? I mean, she must have been aware that as soon as John knew she was alive, Sherlock would too, very soon? She didn't actually expect John to keep silent about that? And besides, how did she think John was going to get her phone back from Sherlock, especially without him noticing?

Yes, of all the things that puzzle about this episode, that conversation puzzles me the most, starting with ... why did it occur in the first place? No answers, I'm afraid. But more and more I think this is their best episode. Not my particular favorite, mind you, but the most beautifully done.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Oh, and another question: Why did Irene talk to John when she decided she wanted her phone back? Why not to Sherlock directly? I mean, she must have been aware that as soon as John knew she was alive, Sherlock would too, very soon? She didn't actually expect John to keep silent about that? And besides, how did she think John was going to get her phone back from Sherlock, especially without him noticing?

Yes, of all the things that puzzle about this episode, that conversation puzzles me the most, starting with ... why did it occur in the first place? No answers, I'm afraid. But more and more I think this is their best episode. Not my particular favorite, mind you, but the most beautifully done.

 

 

Really? I thin A Study in Pink is the best done (and it's not my favorite, either, though it comes close).

 

Since the scene doesn't make a whole lot of sense from inside the story, I wonder why it was written. I guess they really wanted a conversation between Irene and John alone. But why?

 

[Arcadia]

 

But more and more I think this is their best episode. Not my particular favorite, mind you, but the most beautifully done.

Really? I thin A Study in Pink is the best done (and it's not my favorite, either, though it comes close).

 

Since the scene doesn't make a whole lot of sense from inside the story, I wonder why it was written. I guess they really wanted a conversation between Irene and John alone. But why?

 

Let me rephrase ... I think ASiB is the most beautiful to look at. The cinematography is stunning, I hope it won awards. And the pace of it, the turning of the seasons is beautifully presented. And the emotional currents are the most sophisticated, but maybe I just think that because I feel like so much of it takes place over my head!

 

Okay, let's figure this out ... why is that scene there? Hmmmm.... my first thought is, because John didn't have as much to do in this episode as Sherlock did, and they wanted to give him more screen time.

 

And, um .... so Irene could deliver the "look at the two of us" line, which I think is a pretty significant moment in the series. Even if I'm not sure how to interpret it ......

 

Okay, now I'm out of ideas, anyone else?

[SherlockedCAMPer]

It's Moftiss, will we ever know why?

[Arcadia]

I have no idea, maybe the Dr. Who fans can answer that, they have more experience with it/them. Hey Who fans, does Moftiss ever offer a "why" for anything?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe it wasn't so much a matter of "why did Irene talk to John?" as "why didn't Irene talk to Sherlock?" -- and I can imagine a number of answers to that question (aside from "then they couldn't have used the text-alert noise as a plot device").  For one thing, if she'd asked Sherlock directly, he'd presumably have gotten snotty at best, like "Well make up your mind!"

 

The part of that scene that puzzles me the most is why the hell would John unhesitatingly accept a date with some woman who knows who he is even though she's a total stranger to him?  I mean, that's just creepy!  But Alex (my expert on "guy things") says it's perfectly logical, so I grudgingly concede the matter.

 

[Pamela]

Maybe it wasn't so much a matter of "why did Irene talk to John?" as "why didn't Irene talk to Sherlock?" -- and I can imagine a number of answers to that question (aside from "then they couldn't have used the text-alert noise as a plot device").  For one thing, if she'd asked Sherlock directly, he'd presumably have gotten snotty at best, like "Well make up your mind!"

 

The part of that scene that puzzles me the most is why the hell would John unhesitatingly accept a date with some woman who knows who he is even though she's a total stranger to him?  I mean, that's just creepy!  But Alex (my expert on "guy things") says it's perfectly logical, so I grudgingly concede the matter.

Logical for John, who up to that point was something of a skirt-chaser.

[Arcadia]

I confess the first few times I saw that scene, I thought the woman was Not-Anthea. Boy did I feel dumb when the light dawned. THEN I started thinking John was.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've heard several people refer to Irene's messenger as not-Anthea.  (Maybe we should call her not-not-Anthea?)  So do you think that we were supposed to confuse the two women?  Do you think John was confusing them?  The scene would make more sense to me that way.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

If we really are supposed to think that Irene's messenger is not-Anthea, that's a perfect example of why it was silly of Moriarty to use a Sherlock look-alike to make Claudette fear the real Sherlock.  I see hardly any resemblance between Irene's messenger and not-Anthea, even though other people think they're the same woman.  So what makes Moriarty assume that Claudette would confuse Cumberbatch's stunt double with Sherlock?  He lucked out, apparently, but seems just as likely to me that she'd see hardly any resemblance.