Episode 3.2, "The Sign of Three"

[T.o.b.y]

Beats me. The Holmes parents are a little worrying anyway. Their daughter killed somebody and they left it to their teenage son to deal with her? Their younger boy erased her from his memory and became addicted to drugs yet he never seems to have received any kind of therapy? Um...

 

I think the kindest interpretation is that they were hopelessly overwhelmed by finding themselves with three genius kids. I still think they did a pretty shitty job of parenting them though.

[J.P.]

It was uncle Rudi who first took care of Eurus… wasn't he? I cannot say where I got it from though. Was it in the show or is it a part of someone's explanations…?

[Boton]

Beats me. The Holmes parents are a little worrying anyway. Their daughter killed somebody and they left it to their teenage son to deal with her? Their younger boy erased her from his memory and became addicted to drugs yet he never seems to have received any kind of therapy? Um...

 

I think the kindest interpretation is that they were hopelessly overwhelmed by finding themselves with three genius kids. I still think they did a pretty shitty job of parenting them though.

 

Yeah, I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with "shitty parenting" as the explanation, as much as I'd like to love the Holmes parents.

 

It was uncle Rudi who first took care of Eurus… wasn't he? I cannot say where I got it from though. Was it in the show or is it a part of someone's explanations…?

 

Yes, it was in TFP.  Mycroft explains that Rudi initially took charge of the Eurus situation, and later Mycroft took over.

[J.P.]

There is also no evidence that Sherlock didn't receive therapy. Or at least attempts on therapy. But try to find a therapist who can get Sherlock's intellect under control.

[Boton]

I have always assumed that Sherlock did receive some therapy; we weren't that backwards in 1982, after all.  (For reference, supposedly the band Tears for Fears, who had some of their biggest hits in 1985, got their name from the title of the book one of them saw in a child psychologist's office.)

 

My question is what kind of therapist allows a child Sherlock's age to not just actively repress a memory, but substitute a different memory on top of it.  We aren't talking about dredging up the memory years later and deciding to let sleeping dogs (sorry....) lie as far as coping mechanisms go. The child was in the midst of actively dealing with his grief by deciding Redbeard was a dog instead of his nickname for his best friend who died horribly at his sister's hands, and his sister soon thereafter also disappeared. And, apparently no one cared enough about this whole thing to get poor Victor's bones out of the well or to help Sherlock cope with the idea that he had a sister who was sick and who had to go away where they could help her.

 

I know I said "shitty parenting" above, but I've always kind of imagined that the whole mess sort of broke Mummy Holmes for a while, and Dad was left with a mess and only Mycroft to help him sort it out. I figure Mycroft tried to step into the Mummy role because Dad was still sane, and that was the genesis of Sherlock's snark when Mycroft made the innocuous tea-pouring comment, "I'll be mother."  ("There's an entire childhood in a nutshell.")

[T.o.b.y]

There is also no evidence that Sherlock didn't receive therapy. Or at least attempts on therapy. But try to find a therapist who can get Sherlock's intellect under control.

Good point. They probably all quit in frustration.

[Arcadia]

 

 

If only we didn't have that complication of "Sherlock's always been the adult," we could almost pretend that Moftiss were setting up the S4 Victor-Eurus arc all along. Victor's death arrested Sherlock in a state of perpetual emotional childhood, and he's learned to "put on the clothes" of adulthood to make himself accepted but has never gotten over the (well-earned) fear that at any moment someone might swoop in and take his best friend away.

 

So what was Mummy Holmes on about, anyway? 

 

 

So far I've had two thoughts on that ... she was really mad at Mycroft, so she said the one thing she knew would hurt him most. Which doesn't reflect well on her.

 

Or, she thinks that it's immature of Mycroft to have to control everything, and admires Sherlock more for going his own way. Which also doesn't reflect that well on her, that she wouldn't love her sons equally, flaws and all. Either way, you wonder about Mummy. :P

 

I have always assumed that Sherlock did receive some therapy; we weren't that backwards in 1982, after all.  (For reference, supposedly the band Tears for Fears, who had some of their biggest hits in 1985, got their name from the title of the book one of them saw in a child psychologist's office.)

 

My question is what kind of therapist allows a child Sherlock's age to not just actively repress a memory, but substitute a different memory on top of it.  We aren't talking about dredging up the memory years later and deciding to let sleeping dogs (sorry....) lie as far as coping mechanisms go. The child was in the midst of actively dealing with his grief by deciding Redbeard was a dog instead of his nickname for his best friend who died horribly at his sister's hands, and his sister soon thereafter also disappeared. And, apparently no one cared enough about this whole thing to get poor Victor's bones out of the well or to help Sherlock cope with the idea that he had a sister who was sick and who had to go away where they could help her.

 

They couldn't find the well, remember? But yeah, letting him have false memories doesn't make sense to me either. Seems to me that would just cause more psychological trouble down the road. But then Sherlock doesn't precisely have a "healthy" personality, so maybe it did. But I don't like the idea that everything about his ... uniqueness ... can be put down to a childhood trauma. Because some of his uniqueness is pretty great stuff. I also strongly expect we're not meant to think that hard about it.....

[Arcadia]

 

There is also no evidence that Sherlock didn't receive therapy. Or at least attempts on therapy. But try to find a therapist who can get Sherlock's intellect under control.

Good point. They probably all quit in frustration.

 

 

Yeah, okay, I'll accept that. (Now I'm imagining a series of therapists fleeing the Holmes household, rather like the nannies at the start of Mary Poppins... :d)

[Boton]

 

 

 

They couldn't find the well, remember? But yeah, letting him have false memories doesn't make sense to me either. Seems to me that would just cause more psychological trouble down the road. But then Sherlock doesn't precisely have a "healthy" personality, so maybe it did. But I don't like the idea that everything about his ... uniqueness ... can be put down to a childhood trauma. Because some of his uniqueness is pretty great stuff. I also strongly expect we're not meant to think that hard about it.....

 

 

You are right; they couldn't find the well.  Let me amend this to ask what the h--- kind of property this is, anyway? It is supposed to be an ancestral home, and yet the parents don't know where/if there's a well on the property, and they allow a funky Halloween-style graveyard for the kids to play in?

 

I also don't like the idea that Sherlock's personality is all/mostly reaction to trauma.  He is supposed to be born for greatness; that's why we love him. I don't want this all to be a mental disorder of some sort.

 

So, can anyone square the fact that Mycroft says that "everything you are is because of Redbeard" or whatever, and the fact that in TAB, Sherlock says "no one made me; I made me"?

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

 

 

 

They couldn't find the well, remember? But yeah, letting him have false memories doesn't make sense to me either. Seems to me that would just cause more psychological trouble down the road. But then Sherlock doesn't precisely have a "healthy" personality, so maybe it did. But I don't like the idea that everything about his ... uniqueness ... can be put down to a childhood trauma. Because some of his uniqueness is pretty great stuff. I also strongly expect we're not meant to think that hard about it.....

 

You are right; they couldn't find the well. Let me amend this to ask what the h--- kind of property this is, anyway? It is supposed to be an ancestral home, and yet the parents don't know where/if there's a well on the property, and they allow a funky Halloween-style graveyard for the kids to play in?

 

I also don't like the idea that Sherlock's personality is all/mostly reaction to trauma. He is supposed to be born for greatness; that's why we love him. I don't want this all to be a mental disorder of some sort.

 

So, can anyone square the fact that Mycroft says that "everything you are is because of Redbeard" or whatever, and the fact that in TAB, Sherlock says "no one made me; I made me"?

One is Mycroft's perspective, one Sherlock's. I side with Sherlock. I think he did make himself. Family history, trauma and genes made him a sociopath, he made himself high functioning. Sherlock Holmes became Sherlock Holmes in spite of Eurus, not because of her. That's my take anyway.

[Boton]

I'm with you, Toby.  That makes total sense.

 

 

[Hikari]

 

 

 

 

They couldn't find the well, remember? But yeah, letting him have false memories doesn't make sense to me either. Seems to me that would just cause more psychological trouble down the road. But then Sherlock doesn't precisely have a "healthy" personality, so maybe it did. But I don't like the idea that everything about his ... uniqueness ... can be put down to a childhood trauma. Because some of his uniqueness is pretty great stuff. I also strongly expect we're not meant to think that hard about it.....

 

 

You are right; they couldn't find the well.  Let me amend this to ask what the h--- kind of property this is, anyway? It is supposed to be an ancestral home, and yet the parents don't know where/if there's a well on the property, and they allow a funky Halloween-style graveyard for the kids to play in?

 

I also don't like the idea that Sherlock's personality is all/mostly reaction to trauma.  He is supposed to be born for greatness; that's why we love him. I don't want this all to be a mental disorder of some sort.

 

So, can anyone square the fact that Mycroft says that "everything you are is because of Redbeard" or whatever, and the fact that in TAB, Sherlock says "no one made me; I made me"?

 

 

Boton,

 

I couldn't agree more that making Sherlock's entire personality and mental frames of reference a reaction to trauma and he therefore a neurotic, mentally-ill individual, cheapens him exceedingly.  That's why I repudiate most of Season 4.  It was quite sad enough when 'Redbeard' was only a childhood pet.

 

Back when 'Sherlock' was fun, pre-'Reichenbach Fall', I explained Sherlock's fairly regular assurances that he was a high-functioning sociopath as the result of having been dragged to a child psychologist as a kid.  Having previously birthed a stellar genius in Mycroft, who managed to be both brilliant and such an ingratiatingly helpful child, a real little Mummy's helper, Sherlock's defiance of authority and at times worrisome obsessions that made Mummy suspect her younger son was possibly on the autism spectrum propelled Mrs. Holmes to seek professional guidance.  Sherlock was Archie's age at the time, and soon recognized the entertainment value inherent in taking his therapist for a ride.  Having already read and memorized the Diognostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the young Sherlock amused himself by spinning tales for his therapist of violent sadistic fantasies involving younger children and small animals, setting fires, recovered memories of sexual abuse and etc.  All complete fictions, but they succeeded in earning him the diagnosis of 'High Functioning Sociopath', which he wears like a badge of pride.  It's his "I'm a Super Bada** !" card/'Annoying Ordinary People Repellent, and he pulls it out at will and waves it in people's faces.  But it's all b*ll*cks.

[Boton]

 

 

 

 

Boton,

 

I couldn't agree more that making Sherlock's entire personality and mental frames of reference a reaction to trauma and he therefore a neurotic, mentally-ill individual, cheapens him exceedingly.  That's why I repudiate most of Season 4.  It was quite sad enough when 'Redbeard' was only a childhood pet.

 

 

 

The problem for me is that making Sherlock a product of trauma removes a lot of his agency. I like the idea that he is fundamentally the person he wants to be. I don't mind little traumas, like finding out he had a difficult time in uni because he didn't know when to keep his deductions to himself. However, I like to think he has sculpted those experiences into a personality he enjoys, even if it is sometimes abrasive and socially unacceptable.

 

Once we get into repressed memories and invented memories and trauma at a young age, you are correct that we are dealing with mental illness.  It calls into question everything about Sherlock, and it also calls into question everything about his relationships with others.  I said elsewhere that I question how his relationship with John will progress now that John isn't just a proxy for Victor. But I also question things like how he would deal with romantic relationships and sex and other ways of getting close to people now that the barrier that Mycroft clumsily errected is gone.  I don't really want a mentally ill Holmes in this universe, and so I'm leaning toward ignoring S4 most of the time too.

[Arcadia]

 

 

You are right; they couldn't find the well. Let me amend this to ask what the h--- kind of property this is, anyway? It is supposed to be an ancestral home, and yet the parents don't know where/if there's a well on the property, and they allow a funky Halloween-style graveyard for the kids to play in?

 

I also don't like the idea that Sherlock's personality is all/mostly reaction to trauma. He is supposed to be born for greatness; that's why we love him. I don't want this all to be a mental disorder of some sort.

 

So, can anyone square the fact that Mycroft says that "everything you are is because of Redbeard" or whatever, and the fact that in TAB, Sherlock says "no one made me; I made me"?

One is Mycroft's perspective, one Sherlock's. I side with Sherlock. I think he did make himself. Family history, trauma and genes made him a sociopath, he made himself high functioning. Sherlock Holmes became Sherlock Holmes in spite of Eurus, not because of her. That's my take anyway.

 

 

I have to confess I just assumed Sherlock was, ahem, lying, when he said "I made me." But I like your take on it much, much better, Toby. Headcanon accepted. :smile:

[T.o.b.y]

Well, I idolize Sherlock. But I do think there's a case to be made (no pun intended) for him having had a lot of agency in his life.

 

He invented a job for himself, for example, suited to his unique talent and unruly, thrill-seeking personality. He found a place to live. He set the wheels in motion to find a housemate and once he got him, it was Sherlock who decided he would make a good assistant if his little mobility problem could be solved.

 

Actually, post S4, I love Sherlock even more. He went through hell and there's plenty wrong with him but hey, he's not only alive and kicking, he is the best detective in the world. He has work and friends and he is better functioning than many a person with less on their plate.

 

Knowing about him what I do now, I love the first episode even more. Sherlock sees John, traumatized and broken like himself, and says hey, I can fix that - I fixed myself up just fine, you know, just because your sister drinks and you have PTSD, no place to stay and no love life, that doesn't mean you can't be a great person who does great things.

 

And that's a side of Sherlock that I miss in lots of fan fiction. He is often portrayed as a suffering victim and the object of somebody's care (whoever he is shipped with, usually), but to me, he's a hero, and I admire him, in spite of all his flaws. I don't think the backstory they came up with takes anything away from him, to me, it makes him look stronger.

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

It was uncle Rudi who first took care of Eurus… wasn't he?

 

Yes, it was in TFP.  Mycroft explains that Rudi initially took charge of the Eurus situation, and later Mycroft took over.

A picky little correction: The uncle's name is actually spelt "Rudy.". The "Rudi" spelling came from the subtitles, but we have an official script for one of the episodes where he's mentioned, and there it's spelt with a Y.

 

I also strongly expect we're not meant to think that hard about it.....

Shhh, not so loud!

 

... what the h--- kind of property this is, anyway? It is supposed to be an ancestral home, and yet the parents don't know where/if there's a well on the property....

 

Wells don't tend to stay in use forever, so an old property, especially a large one, is bound to have a number of old wells that have been abandoned for one reason or another (e.g., the flow rate declined, or the water quality decreased, or the well was simply no longer needed). For safety reasons, abandoned wells are usually either filled in or covered over, but in the latter case, the cover will eventually rot away. And generations later, the well may have been completely forgotten -- until some inquisitive person happens upon it.

[J.P.]

 

I admire him, in spite of all his flaws. I don't think the backstory they came up with takes anything away from him, to me, it makes him look stronger.

Yes, but to me the un-believability of the backstory spoils it a lot. IMO it would work so much better if they came with something more down-to-earth than a godlike mad sister.

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

I admire him, in spite of all his flaws. I don't think the backstory they came up with takes anything away from him, to me, it makes him look stronger.

Yes, but to me the un-believability of the backstory spoils it a lot. IMO it would work so much better if they came with something more down-to-earth than a godlike mad sister.

Indeed! I fully agree with you there.

[Artemis]

One is Mycroft's perspective, one Sherlock's. I side with Sherlock. I think he did make himself. Family history, trauma and genes made him a sociopath, he made himself high functioning. Sherlock Holmes became Sherlock Holmes in spite of Eurus, not because of her. That's my take anyway.

I agree with everything there except the sociopath part.  Don’t think he is or ever was, but that's just my personal view.  ^_^

 

 

It's his "I'm a Super Bada** !" card/'Annoying Ordinary People Repellent, and he pulls it out at will and waves it in people's faces. But it's all b*ll*cks.

I also don't like the idea that Sherlock's personality is all/mostly reaction to trauma.

 

And that's a side of Sherlock that I miss in lots of fan fiction. He is often portrayed as a suffering victim and the object of somebody's care (whoever he is shipped with, usually), but to me, he's a hero, and I admire him, in spite of all his flaws.

 

Yes, but to me the un-believability of the backstory spoils it a lot. IMO it would work so much better if they came with something more down-to-earth than a godlike mad sister.

 

^ Ditto to the above.

 

 

[Hikari]

I have always assumed that Sherlock did receive some therapy; we weren't that backwards in 1982, after all.  (For reference, supposedly the band Tears for Fears, who had some of their biggest hits in 1985, got their name from the title of the book one of them saw in a child psychologist's office.)

 

My question is what kind of therapist allows a child Sherlock's age to not just actively repress a memory, but substitute a different memory on top of it.  We aren't talking about dredging up the memory years later and deciding to let sleeping dogs (sorry....) lie as far as coping mechanisms go. The child was in the midst of actively dealing with his grief by deciding Redbeard was a dog instead of his nickname for his best friend who died horribly at his sister's hands, and his sister soon thereafter also disappeared. And, apparently no one cared enough about this whole thing to get poor Victor's bones out of the well or to help Sherlock cope with the idea that he had a sister who was sick and who had to go away where they could help her.

 

I know I said "shitty parenting" above, but I've always kind of imagined that the whole mess sort of broke Mummy Holmes for a while, and Dad was left with a mess and only Mycroft to help him sort it out. I figure Mycroft tried to step into the Mummy role because Dad was still sane, and that was the genesis of Sherlock's snark when Mycroft made the innocuous tea-pouring comment, "I'll be mother."  ("There's an entire childhood in a nutshell.")

 

In the midst of this well-written diagnostic paragraph, the phrase 'shitty parenting' jumps out and smacks me in the eye.  Weird software, this, which made an issue out of phrases like 'degree in radiology' but allows 'shitty'.  Color me surprised!  I've never been allowed to used that word anywhere else.  I had to do a double-take and assure myself that it didn't actually say 'shifty parenting'. 

 

Carry on!  Because sometimes, only that word will do. :)

 

[Boton]

Oh, "shitty parenting" is all Toby's work.  I'm just borrowing it.   :D

[Hikari]

Oh, "shitty parenting" is all Toby's work.  I'm just borrowing it.   :D

 

Let's all borrow it and use it with shitty abandon!

[T.o.b.y]

Sorry, me and my potty mouth... Would the BBC let the writers put "shitty" in a Sherlock script? Because if not, I am not actually allowed to say it around here...

[Boton]

Actually, didn't it seem like there was more profanity in S4 than we've ever had before?  Nonetheless, yeah, we'd better dial it back.

[Carol the Dabbler]

In the midst of this well-written diagnostic paragraph, the phrase 'shitty parenting' jumps out and smacks me in the eye.  Weird software, this, which made an issue out of phrases like 'degree in radiology' but allows 'shitty'.  Color me surprised!  I've never been allowed to used that word anywhere else.  I had to do a double-take and assure myself that it didn't actually say 'shifty parenting'. 

 

Carry on!  Because sometimes, only that word will do.

 

Let me attempt to clarify this matter:  The "degree in radiology" spam filter (which apparently no longer exists) was separate from the "shit" filter (which presumably does still exist).  I am currently running an experiment to see which (if any) words are still blocked for naughtiness.

 

Sorry, me and my potty mouth... Would the BBC let the writers put "shitty" in a Sherlock script? Because if not, I am not actually allowed to say it around here...

 

Well, John did say "shit" in Scandal, so the BBC would presumably allow "shitty" as well.  Just for the record, PBS had that entire scene edited out -- but I'm pretty sure the FCC would not have allowed the "shit."  It has recently become OK to say "crap" on American TV, but I'm not sure about the BBC on that one.