Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[STCooper1]

Magnussen didn't really need any evidence in regard to Mary anyway , the threat was to tell people who hated and wanted to kill Mary where she was. Publishing a story in the papers about Mary was never on the cards because Magnussen didn't care at all about Mary the whole thing was about Mycroft and his attempted takeover of the uk government people.

 

It's difficult to believe post SH shooting that Sherlock and Mycroft didn't have plans to cover all contingencies at Appledore as they did for Moriarty on the roof...and all those possible scenarios.

I think the smoking convo SH@MH had at christmas was about framing Magnussen or alternatively killing him and playing the get out jail free , here be dragons , Moriarty alive card.

Of course it doesn't look like that on the surface , Mycroft cannot be seen or heard colluding in Magnussens murder - no matter how necessary.

Just another magic trick where people take their eye off the magician.

Either by collusion or coincidence Sherlock and Mycroft have got what they wanted , and as in TRF , they will claim victory.

 

No, they won't claim victory as they didn't defeat Magnussen, Magnussen defeated them as they had nothing to use against him. Also, Mycroft being involved and potentially trying to get rid of Magnussen makes no sense since he openly calls him a necessary evil and thinks of him as an asset. He knows Magnussen isn't dangerous, saying "He never causes too much damage to anyone important. Hes far too intelligent for that". So no, when he said "Here be dragons", he didn't mean Magnussen was one, nor was he in on Sherlock's plan directly.

[Arcadia]

I think you both have equally valid interpretations, I honestly can't choose between them. Some days I think Mycroft HAS to be in on it, other days I don't see how he can be. Ak, it's maddening!!! :D

[BlackButterfly]

@STcooper.

Were you in a house with Sherlock and Billy Wiggins and you thought there was something in the punch.....would you drink it?

 

Further the ' secrets ' Magnussen wanted could never have been published in any newspaper , they never are - consider Snowden and Assange and the recently jailed American and others that have attempted to break official secrets acts.

Magnussen would have gone directly to jail and lost his newspaper licence.

 

Therefore his motivations in obtaining government secrets were more nefarious and dangerous than mere newspaper fodder and more of a serious threat to Mycroft and the country. Magnussen himself said Mycroft had been ' after him for some time'.

 

Alternatively of course thats too realistic a view for a nonsensical tv drama.

[STCooper1]

I think that John Watson's behavior in "His Last Vow" is explainable by his training and point of view of "the soldier", with firm loyalty toward Sherlock (his "commander") and Mary (his wife, carrying their unborn child).  With Mary's life threatened by the creep CAM and John's humiliation from said creep, he played the role of a good soldier in allowing his "commander" to live up to his last vow in being there for John and Mary when he shot CAM to end the peril they otherwise would have faced if CAM gave Mary's enemies their address.

 

Mary's life was NEVER threatened by Magnussen and he never would have gave their address to her enemies as Magnussen NEEDS them both alive and well, which makes his murder completely unnecessary and not a fulfillment of Sherlock's vow to the Watson's. 

[STCooper1]

@STcooper.

Were you in a house with Sherlock and Billy Wiggins and you thought there was something in the punch.....would you drink it?

 

Further the ' secrets ' Magnussen wanted could never have been published in any newspaper , they never are - consider Snowden and Assange and the recently jailed American and others that have attempted to break official secrets acts.

Magnussen would have gone directly to jail and lost his newspaper licence.

 

Therefore his motivations in obtaining government secrets were more nefarious and dangerous than mere newspaper fodder and more of a serious threat to Mycroft and the country. Magnussen himself said Mycroft had been ' after him for some time'.

 

Alternatively of course thats too realistic a view for a nonsensical tv drama.

 

What do you mean "the secrets that Magnussen wanted"? You mean government secrets? Of course he'd never have revealed those since its not known whether he even had any. He said when explaining Sherlock's plan "They will discover further information of this kind, and I'll be imprisoned", but whether that means he actually knew classified secrets or if what he said mean't blackmail material in the form of dark secrets is unknown. He didn't want government secrets necessarily, he wanted OWNERSHIP of Mycroft, which he didn't need government secrets for since he also owned Sherlock, who is Mycroft's pressure point. Thats what he explained at Appledore, and what he intended to do with ownership of Mycroft is also unknown. For all we know, he would have done little to nothing aside from flaunt his power like a bully since, at heart, thats all Magnussen is.

[BlackButterfly]

Yes. Magnussen wished to make puppets of the British government through gaining information ,further he had already claimed earlier that if it worked here , he would try it in other countries.

So obviously Mycroft would be in the urgent business of stopping him by whatever means necessary?

Looks to me like Mycroft didn't want Sherlock involved to begin with , but made use of him once his involvement in stopping Magnussen became unavoidable, @If dead isn't defeated idk what is.

 

It's the same kind of rhetoric we get in TRF . The corporations and the media have too much influence and power which is dangerous and thus they become corrupt bullies etc and sometimes we have to fight dirty or make use of a patriotic style ' blunt instrument'.The same can @ probably will be said about Mycroft/government at some point.

It's very canon for Sherlock to be very disdainful of the society he lives in and disregard the inadequate rules for his own version of justice.

 

I don't think the Mycroft was ignorant and stupid and Sherlock was uncontrolled and sentimental version fits the characters we have been shown in the previous eight episodes.

[STCooper1]

Yes. Magnussen wished to make puppets of the British government through gaining information ,further he had already claimed earlier that if it worked here , he would try it in other countries.

So obviously Mycroft would be in the urgent business of stopping him by whatever means necessary?

Looks to me like Mycroft didn't want Sherlock involved to begin with , but made use of him once his involvement in stopping Magnussen became unavoidable, @If dead isn't defeated idk what is.

 

It's the same kind of rhetoric we get in TRF . The corporations and the media have too much influence and power which is dangerous and thus they become corrupt bullies etc and sometimes we have to fight dirty or make use of a patriotic style ' blunt instrument'.The same can @ probably will be said about Mycroft/government at some point.

It's very canon for Sherlock to be very disdainful of the society he lives in and disregard the inadequate rules for his own version of justice.

 

I don't think the Mycroft was ignorant and stupid and Sherlock was uncontrolled and sentimental version fits the characters we have been shown in the previous eight episodes.

 

Even if he does make puppets out of them, hes not dangerous and Mycroft openly admits Magnussen is their ally and occasionally useful to them, along with that he never causes much damage to important people. If thats the case, why would Mycroft care about Magnussen or bother getting rid of him. Its just destruction of a useful ally and asset and unnecessary trouble. Its not that Mycroft is ignorant and stupid, just appreciative of Magnussen and his resources, despite noting them as a necessary evil. Dead isn't defeated since Magnussen then had moral victory and intellectual victory together. He was the better man, and the smarter. Thats a winner, not a loser. I agree that Sherlock in this episode is not like in the previous 8 though.

[BlackButterfly]

It seems obvious to me why a man like Magnussen should not be allowed to continue to gain power over the British government and maybe even worldwide.Can we really consider him harmless considering the havoc he sowed in the lives and deaths of the people we saw affected in HLV.

More like Magnussen was temporarily Mycrofts pet shark..that was put down when it threatened to bite him on the ass.

 

As to a moral and intellectual victory , it seems simplistic and medieval to seperate actions into good or bad only. The programme has a clear theme of Sherlock being - on the battlefield -choosing a side - walking with angels - and being a soldier in some kind of war with those that - are on the other side. How does a simplistic moral view of - murder bad - hold in regards to WW2 etc..

In the post Nietzsche -beyond good and evil - modern world , acts have to be judged through their motives and consequences.

The writers give us Marys and Sherlocks -what could have been identical acts-as opposing parallels, motive and consequence wise , one unnecessary with small and short sighted selfish gains and one with larger more important and wider reaching selfless gains.

Intellectually ( in my pov) Sherlock was aware of what he may have to do (bring the gun ) and prepared to accept the consequences and will almost certainly get away with it because he covered his six. More a draw than being outsmarted , or dead.

[T.o.b.y]

More like Magnussen was temporarily Mycrofts pet shark..that was put down when it threatened to bite him on the ass.

 

:D I love that interpretation! Never saw it quite that way before - I always assumed Mycroft was so seemingly indifferent about Magnussen because the alternative would have been to admit that even his power was insufficient to control him - but I just love that. Someone write a fan fic to that effect, I'd read it in a jiffy.

 

[STCooper1]

It seems obvious to me why a man like Magnussen should not be allowed to continue to gain power over the British government and maybe even worldwide.Can we really consider him harmless considering the havoc he sowed in the lives and deaths of the people we saw affected in HLV.

More like Magnussen was temporarily Mycrofts pet shark..that was put down when it threatened to bite him on the ass.

 

As to a moral and intellectual victory , it seems simplistic and medieval to seperate actions into good or bad only. The programme has a clear theme of Sherlock being - on the battlefield -choosing a side - walking with angels - and being a soldier in some kind of war with those that - are on the other side. How does a simplistic moral view of - murder bad - hold in regards to WW2 etc..

In the post Nietzsche -beyond good and evil - modern world , acts have to be judged through their motives and consequences.

The writers give us Marys and Sherlocks -what could have been identical acts-as opposing parallels, motive and consequence wise , one unnecessary with small and short sighted selfish gains and one with larger more important and wider reaching selfless gains.

Intellectually ( in my pov) Sherlock was aware of what he may have to do (bring the gun ) and prepared to accept the consequences and will almost certainly get away with it because he covered his six. More a draw than being outsmarted , or dead.

 

Nobody died through Magnussen's fault. Lord Smallwood killed himself, possibly for no reason as we didn't see that Magnussen exposed the letters to the public unless it was on that newspaper that couldn't be read. And even if Magnussen did expose the letters, thats his JOB as a newspaper owner, to expose scandals and profit from them. He didn't MAKE Smallwood kill himself, the latter chose to which proved what a wuss and weakling he was that he couldn't take the truth being known like a man. So your statement that he "sowed havoc in the lives and deaths of people in HLV" is overall false, since all he did was ruin reputations. May seem morbid and easy to hate, but perfectly legal and honest. Secondly, Mycroft didn't want Magnussen dead and didn't seem to feel threatened by him. He openly appreciated what a useful asset he was, and protected him. Next, Sherlock MURDERED a man in cold blood who had never killed anybody in his entire life and who wasn't even threatening to, on top of committing high treason, both deliberately. Thats way worse than ruining somebody's reputation, which they can live without, as Magnussen would do. Next, you're completely wrong that Sherlock was aware that he might have to murder Magnussen, as his whole cover plan would have been done differently and he wouldn't have guaranteed his own capture for murder and treason, as well as probably not brought Watson along and had a silencer on the gun, if he had suspected or knew the Appledore vaults would turn out to be a Mind Palace. He DIDN'T know or suspect that before Magnussen revealed it, therefore he was utterly defeated at his own game(intellectually), and then proved himself worse than Magnussen by committing murder and doing something worse than he ever did and giving him moral victory as well. Asking Watson if he'd brought his gun was for one or the other, if not both, of two reasons; protection or a hostage situation. They were stealing state secrets, so theres officials to worry about, and also Sherlock had just finished openly describing Magnussen as the most dangerous man they'd ever faced, so he'd of course want a gun there in case Magnussen betrays them, or goes back on the deal and refuses to turn over the papers on Mary after getting the laptop. Then, they would take him hostage and make him, afterwards probably using him to get out of Appledore just before Mycroft and the police arrive, though that in itself has a measure of idiocy since hes gambling that Magnussen's guards will forget to do their jobs when he has no guarantee that they will.

[HeroinOrHeroine]

(I'm just going to come in here with a totally different topic because I have a feeling this debate could go on for days. Feel free to ignore me and carry on).

 

I know I really like this episode, but I keep rewatching the series right up to HLV and then starting over. I just can't bring myself to watch it again. I don't know why.

[Arcadia]

Wow, plenty of discussion in this thread lately, I love it! Lots of good ideas, and I'm having fun weighing the different views.

 

However, if I may, I'm just going to step in for one little second, and remind everyone that there is no "completely right" or "completely wrong" answer here. There are only theories based on each person's interpretation of certain scenes. Disagreements are fine -- that's what makes this forum fun! -- but I hope we can all remember to express our opinions by saying things like "I think (this or that)" or "I disagree with (this or that)," instead of saying things like "you're wrong." (Even if the other person really is wrong! :D ) It just makes the dialog a bit friendlier, and less likely to hurt feelings.

 

Okay, enough of my soapbox. Back to the discussion!

[Arcadia]

(I'm just going to come in here with a totally different topic because I have a feeling this debate could go on for days. Feel free to ignore me and carry on).

 

I know I really like this episode, but I keep rewatching the series right up to HLV and then starting over. I just can't bring myself to watch it again. I don't know why.

 

I sort of know what you mean. I just finished watching the whole series again recently, and I kept putting off watching HLV for several days (even though it's one of my favorites) -- and I think maybe it's because once I watched it, there was no more left to see! It's like saying goodbye to a good friend when you don't know when you'll see them again. (Sort of like John and Sherlock saying goodbye at the airport, now that I think about it. )

 

Also, it's just a painful episode to watch in so many places ... all the feels! I find it goes really well with a glass of wine ...

[Van Buren Supernova]

(I'm just going to come in here with a totally different topic because I have a feeling this debate could go on for days. Feel free to ignore me and carry on).

 

I know I really like this episode, but I keep rewatching the series right up to HLV and then starting over. I just can't bring myself to watch it again. I don't know why.

It could be interesting to try to analyze why.

Maybe the finality, the direction they take, the storyline?

 

For me, I find TSoT much more difficult to watch and still try to analyze why.

 

[HeroinOrHeroine]

If I were to analyze it a wee bit: I think a (maybe large) part of it is that all of the vulnerability shown by Sherlock, John and Mycroft makes me uncomfortable. Which probably says a lot more about me than it does about the episode.

[Arcadia]

 

(I'm just going to come in here with a totally different topic because I have a feeling this debate could go on for days. Feel free to ignore me and carry on).

 

I know I really like this episode, but I keep rewatching the series right up to HLV and then starting over. I just can't bring myself to watch it again. I don't know why.

It could be interesting to try to analyze why.

Maybe the finality, the direction they take, the storyline?

 

All of the above? :D

 

For me, I find TSoT much more difficult to watch and still try to analyze why.

That is interesting, because I think TSo3 is one I could watch on a continuous loop for a few days! I just love it more every time I see it. Except the final scene, boy, that's tough to watch. Beautifully done, but gut wrenching.

 

If I were to analyze it a wee bit: I think a (maybe large) part of it is that all of the vulnerability shown by Sherlock, John and Mycroft makes me uncomfortable. Which probably says a lot more about me than it does about the episode.

It says you're a caring, sensitive person?

 

I can still remember the way I felt the first half dozen times I saw HLV ... like I'd been knocked down and kicked. And very confused. I'm still not sure why; I wasn't nearly as obsessed with the show then as I am now. Although now that I think of it, that didn't keep me from watching it ... just the opposite. Hm.

[Van Buren Supernova]

If I were to analyze it a wee bit: I think a (maybe large) part of it is that all of the vulnerability shown by Sherlock, John and Mycroft makes me uncomfortable. Which probably says a lot more about me than it does about the episode.

 Although I don't think I understand your take 100%, I understand it. (I don't know how to phrase this ).

 

The special appeal of this series is how it makes you feel. Not necessary good feelings, quite a contrary, but it's always brilliant in making us feel something.

 

:D

 

That is interesting, because I think TSo3 is one I could watch on a continuous loop for a few days! I just love it more every time I see it. Except the final scene, boy, that's tough to watch. Beautifully done, but gut wrenching.

 

 

 

I find it confusing to me also, majority think that the episode is a feel-good episode and funny. I agree with that but it also leaves a sad feeling for me. A big one.

 

I skipped it during rewatch before but I had tried to rewatch that episode only to try to understand why it's difficult.

[Inge l-w]

 

Mc

More like Magnussen was temporarily Mycrofts pet shark..that was put down when it threatened to bite him on the ass.

:D I love that interpretation! Never saw it quite that way before - I always assumed Mycroft was so seemingly indifferent about Magnussen because the alternative would have been to admit that even his power was insufficient to control him - but I just love that. Someone write a fan fic to that effect, I'd read it in a jiffy.

Dear TOBY, there are at least ten Mycroft/Magnussen story arcs in AoO, one of which goes back to when they were students together, the Dane as an exchange one, but ... not for general consumption, which is what Baby Brother deduces, and this motivates him even further to get rid of the larger shark by fair means or foul. Tread warily, please! The one going back all the way to university even has stunning fan art, but you may need that truckload of Nutella I once joked about in Boton's I will read whatever thread afterwards!

[BlackButterfly]

I suppose it is a tribute to the writing of the show and to this fandom that people can have such differing and interesting opinions on the same show , and air them politely . :-)

 

While I agree Smallwoods suicide does seem a bit wussy? I don't think you can say Magnussen acted lawfully and honestly.

Threatening to print stories unless government officials rule the way you want them to on an official enquiry...as is blackmail in general..illegal.

So is theatening to murder - telling bad guys where Mary is , who want to kill her..

So was having John drugged kidnapped and almost burnt to death...

Several crimes there up to and including conspiracy to murder and those were just a few of the ones we saw happen.

 

 

As to the stolen laptop issue , as mentioned , its possible and likely there wasn't even any important information on it . It was just the excuse for a search of Appledore where other incriminating evidence may be found . ( like the video of Johns kidnapping.)

 

As mentioned here several times , Magnussen was stupid , even after Marys close attempt and seeing his men disarm John of various weapons , he failed to ensure J@S were unarmed . He wasn't smart at all he was just a bully.

 

I think its likely that Sherlock as a MI6 agent had some kind of licence to kill...so While it is a murder..the legalities are more complex.

Looks to me like his boss's at MI6 were prepared to punish him in some kind of...doing unpaid overtime...way...but Mycroft pushed for the E Europe job...which also suggests to me Mycroft had further plans brewing.

[sittything]

 

I can still remember the way I felt the first half dozen times I saw HLV ... like I'd been knocked down and kicked. 

 

 

This is probably the biggest reason it's one of my least watched episodes.

[Arcadia]

The special appeal of this series is how it makes you feel. Not necessary good feelings, quite a contrary, but it's always brilliant in making us feel something.

So true!

 

 

That is interesting, because I think TSo3 is one I could watch on a continuous loop for a few days! I just love it more every time I see it. Except the final scene, boy, that's tough to watch. Beautifully done, but gut wrenching.

I find it confusing to me also, majority think that the episode is a feel-good episode and funny. I agree with that but it also leaves a sad feeling for me. A big one.

 

I skipped it during rewatch before but I had tried to rewatch that episode only to try to understand why it's difficult.

 

 Well, in spite of the humor, etc., it really is about "the end of an era." The relationship between Sherlock and John is going to be different now. Not necessarily worse, but different ... and that's a little sad, because they were so great the way they were.

 

Also I think of it as a kind of "coming of age" story. Those always make me a little blue, I suppose because they involve a loss of innocence, and there is something very appealing to me about innocence. Yet those are also the kinds of stories I read over and over again; To Kill a Mockingbird, for example. Breaks my heart every time, but I can't stop reading it.

 

I suppose it is a tribute to the writing of the show and to this fandom that people can have such differing and interesting opinions on the same show , and air them politely . :-)

So true again!

 

While I agree Smallwoods suicide does seem a bit wussy? I don't think you can say Magnussen acted lawfully and honestly.

Threatening to print stories unless government officials rule the way you want them to on an official enquiry...as is blackmail in general..illegal.

So is theatening to murder - telling bad guys where Mary is , who want to kill her..

So was having John drugged kidnapped and almost burnt to death...

Several crimes there up to and including conspiracy to murder and those were just a few of the ones we saw happen.

For me, it's not so much whether CAM was operating within the law or not. (Among other things, I don't know enough about the law to be a judge of that; and anyway, people like Magnussen always seem to be able to manipulate the law to their own ends.) For me, it's more about how inhuman he was; by his own choice. He chose to use people's weaknesses against them, instead of using his vast intellect and wealth to help them overcome their weaknesses. So while he may (or may  not) be technically innocent of wrongdoing, he's still guilty of being indifferent to the welfare of others, and of using other people for his own selfish ends. And that's a Bit Not Good.

 

 

I can still remember the way I felt the first half dozen times I saw HLV ... like I'd been knocked down and kicked.

 

This is probably the biggest reason it's one of my least watched episodes.

 

I think if I were to select different episodes to watch at random, that would be true for me as well. But I always feel compelled to watch each episode as part of a series; preferably all nine in a row, but at least each season as a unit. It's time consuming! But the few times I've tried to watch an episode as a stand-alone story, I feel like I'm missing something.  Imagine starting To Kill a Mockingbird in the middle and never finishing it ... nope, I'm not built that way!

[sittything]

I'm not very good about just picking episodes of series at random, either.  So I get that.  It may also be the least watched because its last and often I start rewatches, fizzle partway through, then start again with ASIP.  lol   Same reason goes to why I've probably seen Season 1 of X-Files more than any other season.

[jadpdr]

Personally speaking, except for the Great Game, I actively protect my mental well-being by avoiding TRF (an ancestress of mine committed suicide off the roof of a hospital in 1940), so the whole last sequence lies too close to home, and HLV I Always stop at the point where he miscalculates Mary's resolve to shoot him, one of his many mistakes in this very flawed episode. Whatever they do to repair the damage they did to their supposed favourite character in fiction will never be enough to make amends for leaving him no other choice but to shoot Magnussen at point blanc range, unless, like the Big Blue, he really didn't, in which case CAM may be alive, an even more horrifying thought on levels of their personal and national security!

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

The special appeal of this series is how it makes you feel. Not necessary good feelings, quite a contrary, but it's always brilliant in making us feel something.

So true!

 

 

That is interesting, because I think TSo3 is one I could watch on a continuous loop for a few days! I just love it more every time I see it. Except the final scene, boy, that's tough to watch. Beautifully done, but gut wrenching.

I find it confusing to me also, majority think that the episode is a feel-good episode and funny. I agree with that but it also leaves a sad feeling for me. A big one.

 

I skipped it during rewatch before but I had tried to rewatch that episode only to try to understand why it's difficult.

 

 Well, in spite of the humor, etc., it really is about "the end of an era." The relationship between Sherlock and John is going to be different now. Not necessarily worse, but different ... and that's a little sad, because they were so great the way they were.

 

The end of an era is sad, but there is something else. I think I find it.

 

Mycroft's 'don't get involved'.

As confessed by him, in HoB, Sherlock did what he could to detach himself from feelings. I guess it should have started with Redbeard.

Yet, he got involved, and with that all his fears. For caring about others, their well being, for their safety, and for their happiness. Nothing good would come out from his vow, for him. He paid it dearly with TRF and HLV.

 

It's so true, isn't it. Getting involved, open up one's feeling, make you fragile. If we never care about something, it will never hurt us. Yet, we are not made of stone.

 

And then his doubt about what he believes and what he stands for. He felt he needed someone, he felt lonely, he felt left out.

It's so out of space, fish out of water.

So much so that he called Mycroft. Mycroft! And asked him to come, because he might be the only one that could strengthen what he believed, that he could survive without all those people, that it's still alright being alone, that it's still possible to be detached.

But no.

No turning back. Everything betrayed him. He got involved.

 

There. That's why TSoT is difficult to watch for me.

 

That's also why I think the betrayal of Mary hurt him much more than the bullet.

[J.P.]

The end of an era is sad, but there is something else. I think I find it.

 

Mycroft's 'don't get involved'.

As confessed by him, in HoB, Sherlock did what he could to detach himself from feelings. I guess it should have started with Redbeard.

Yet, he got involved, and with that all his fears. For caring about others, their well being, for their safety, and for their happiness. Nothing good would come out from his vow, for him. He paid it dearly with TRF and HLV.

 

It's so true, isn't it. Getting involved, open up one's feeling, make you fragile. If we never care about something, it will never hurt us. Yet, we are not made of stone.

 

And then his doubt about what he believes and what he stands for. He felt he needed someone, he felt lonely, he felt left out.

It's so out of space, fish out of water.

So much so that he called Mycroft. Mycroft! And asked him to come, because he might be the only one that could strengthen what he believed, that he could survive without all those people, that it's still alright being alone, that it's still possible to be detached.

But no.

No turning back. Everything betrayed him. He got involved.

 

There. That's why TSoT is difficult to watch for me.

 

That's also why I think the betrayal of Mary hurt him much more than the bullet.

Oh, God, yes.

This is why HLV makes me feel like dragged behind a truck for 10 miles of a cobblestone road.

Plus the goodbye scene. Sherlock's a girl name...