Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[sherlockandjohn]

 

I do think that Rupert Graves is too good an actor for such a small role and should get more screen time. He does get some lovely moments, though. The man-hug when Sherlock returns from the dead and, of course....

 

"Could you whisper?"

 

"NOT REALLY!"

 

 

I looooooooove that moment! Lestrade gets to yell at John and Sherlock! Woohoo! Ahem, not that I don't love them, but Lestrade really should be appreciated more.

 

[Zain]

Yep, loved those moments with Lestrade.

One of my favorite's, definitely. I always see him as a somewhat paternal guardian. More head canon than actually confirmed but I think it suits the actor. He's a bit like Mycroft but less controlling. Lestrade keeps an eye on Sherlock and his antics. It felt really good when Lestrade hugged Sherlock. The reunion fit just right with my head canon (and a lot of stories I like).

Hope we'll see more from him next season, especially after we see how much Lestrade values Sherlock.

[sherlockandjohn]

Oh yes, I definitely pictured Lestrade hugging Sherlock when meeting him again. And Sherlock's eye-roll was right on spot

[BLS_Pro]

You are free to interpret Sherlock's intentions as you wish - maybe it was to confirm a (thought but unspoken) deduction, maybe he wanted access to material evidence against Mary prior to the arrival of the police to arrest CAM (this is the motive to which CAM refers), or maybe other people have other interpretations. However, what you think a character's motivation might be is nothing more than your personal opinion unless it is stated in the script, which it is not.

Funny that I've pointed to the facts in the script four times now and yet you keep blithely declaring they do not exist.   Sherlock's explicitly stated motivation in the script is to see the vault.  So, contrary to your claim, it is far more than merely "personal opinion".  Nor is it, contrary to your claim, just "personal opinion" that Sherlock recognizes in the cafe that CAM has Appledore in his mind - ie that CAM himself is the "portable Appledore".  That explicit revelation is the entire point of that scripted scene.  And, contrary to your claim, it is not "personal opinion" but fact that the script reveals Sherlock has the entire plan put together right after discovering the vault is mental rather than digital - right down to the day it will occur - months later on Christmas - and down to the explicit motivation for it:  Sherlock's "deal with the devil" is, contrary to your claim, explicitly stated right in the script, to be the betrayal of his brother - not for Mary's files - but to see the vault.

 

Everything I've stated about Sherlock's motivation has, contrary to your claims, been in the script.  In fact, the script virtually beats the viewer over the head with it - especially with Sherlock's discovery that Appledore is in CAM's mind.  I'm not sure why you keep trying to claim all of this doesn't exist in the script, but if it is more "fun" for you that these scripted facts not exist, then far be it for me to stand in the way of your "enjoyment".  If you truly don't want to talk about them further, then I won't discuss them with you any longer either.  Seems fair enough.

 

 

 

[Karie]

 

Welcome, cumberholmes! No worries, you didn't go overboard! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's why we're here, after all!  My reaction to Janine is kind of funny.  I started off violently hating her in TSOT, and liked her more and more every time I watched it.  Same for HLV. Hated all that stuff in the apartment on the first go, but become more and more amused with it with each re-watch. I particularly loved John's reactions to those moments. Martin's facial expressions are absolutely amazing! 

thank you and thank you! Oh dear... I hate her a lot, I was in shock when I saw her, I'm in shock!! when I saw her with Sherlock..I was so upset and so jealous. Finally I thought: ¨ hey b... don't touch him, you're not good enough for Sherlock. It was hard to keep seeing that chapter... was like a pain in the neck. And after that I went to my mind palace to take a breath and she disappeared. was crazy hahahaha

Oh, I'm with you! I don't think I will ever consider anyone good enough for Sherlock. Which is why I'd like him to stay single. Others may disagree!

 

 

 

I'm with you guys 110%. More Lestrade!!!!

[T.o.b.y]

One of Sherlock's problems is that he is drawn to people who hurt him (Irene, Mary and, above all, Moriarty) and treats most of those who love him (Lestrade, Molly, Mrs Hudson, his mum and dad) with affectionate contempt. (If ever a man needed therapy.....) So he doesn't care about Lestrade nearly as much as Lestrade cares about him. Greg tries to protect him, does everything he asks and drops everything to rush to his aid. Sherlock never seems to appreciate it.

 

That's an interesting observation. I don't think "they hurt him" is really the important factor in his being drawn to Irene, Mary and Moriarty - if that were what he likes, he would have felt drawn to Magnussen as well and clearly he hated his guts.

 

I think those three people mostly have in common that they are similar to Sherlock. They are "extraordinary" in a similar way. We know for sure since series 3 what we could guess pretty well before, that he is lonely and feels isolated. The only other "genius sociopath" around used to be his big brother, and there are obvious reasons why that was not very satisfying company. Moriarty looked very promising at first, but then turned out to be a raging lunatic killer and a soul he'd rather not be kindred to. Irene was alluring, but the fact that she deliberately tried to hurt and humiliate him does not seem to have pleased Sherlock at all; it only brought out cruelty on his side (as seen in the "showdown" on the plane).

 

Mary doesn't hurt Sherlock much. Sure, she shoots him, but I don't think he was all too crushed by that, he respected her for what she did. Mary is the first person he meets who belongs in his order of beings without being a villain and / or heartless. She seemed angelic at first, but it turns out she is, like him, only on the side of the angels and fully prepared to "burn" if necessary (especially if necessary for the good of a certain John Watson). No wonder Sherlock really likes her and did not want to think ill of her.

 

As for the affectionate contempt, that certainly sums it up nicely. I think we could include John in that category in series 1, but by His Last Vow he seems to have found a quite exceptional place in Sherlock's little store of friends: the only person who is fully respected by him for being something very different from himself. (Molly is getting there too, I think).

[cumberholmes]

 

 

Welcome, cumberholmes! No worries, you didn't go overboard! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's why we're here, after all!  My reaction to Janine is kind of funny.  I started off violently hating her in TSOT, and liked her more and more every time I watched it.  Same for HLV. Hated all that stuff in the apartment on the first go, but become more and more amused with it with each re-watch. I particularly loved John's reactions to those moments. Martin's facial expressions are absolutely amazing! 

thank you and thank you! Oh dear... I hate her a lot, I was in shock when I saw her, I'm in shock!! when I saw her with Sherlock..I was so upset and so jealous. Finally I thought: ¨ hey b... don't touch him, you're not good enough for Sherlock. It was hard to keep seeing that chapter... was like a pain in the neck. And after that I went to my mind palace to take a breath and she disappeared. was crazy hahahaha

 

Oh, I'm with you! I don't think I will ever consider anyone good enough for Sherlock. Which is why I'd like him to stay single. Others may disagree!

 

 

 

I'm with you guys 110%. More Lestrade!!!!

 

 

I'm with you too! to return to see that chapter would have to skip that part. It is very pleasant to know I'm not alone here.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

But Sherlock did choose her for a very good reason....or it was good idea at the time. But he did choose a boyfriend for her before the fact so that when it came time to tell her the truth she would already have a shoulder to cry on.

[cumberholmes]

 

One of Sherlock's problems is that he is drawn to people who hurt him (Irene, Mary and, above all, Moriarty) and treats most of those who love him (Lestrade, Molly, Mrs Hudson, his mum and dad) with affectionate contempt. (If ever a man needed therapy.....) So he doesn't care about Lestrade nearly as much as Lestrade cares about him. Greg tries to protect him, does everything he asks and drops everything to rush to his aid. Sherlock never seems to appreciate it.

 

That's an interesting observation. I don't think "they hurt him" is really the important factor in his being drawn to Irene, Mary and Moriarty - if that were what he likes, he would have felt drawn to Magnussen as well and clearly he hated his guts.

 

I think those three people mostly have in common that they are similar to Sherlock. They are "extraordinary" in a similar way. We know for sure since series 3 what we could guess pretty well before, that he is lonely and feels isolated. The only other "genius sociopath" around used to be his big brother, and there are obvious reasons why that was not very satisfying company. Moriarty looked very promising at first, but then turned out to be a raging lunatic killer and a soul he'd rather not be kindred to. Irene was alluring, but the fact that she deliberately tried to hurt and humiliate him does not seem to have pleased Sherlock at all; it only brought out cruelty on his side (as seen in the "showdown" on the plane).

 

Mary doesn't hurt Sherlock much. Sure, she shoots him, but I don't think he was all too crushed by that, he respected her for what she did. Mary is the first person he meets who belongs in his order of beings without being a villain and / or heartless. She seemed angelic at first, but it turns out she is, like him, only on the side of the angels and fully prepared to "burn" if necessary (especially if necessary for the good of a certain John Watson). No wonder Sherlock really likes her and did not want to think ill of her.

 

As for the affectionate contempt, that certainly sums it up nicely. I think we could include John in that category in series 1, but by His Last Vow he seems to have found a quite exceptional place in Sherlock's little store of friends: the only person who is fully respected by him for being something very different from himself. (Molly is getting there too, I think).

 

 

There are several curious points about the personality of Sherlock, he often expressed a need for the sleuthing to stick to the facts but his actions would often demonstrate that he was very reliant on his intuition as well, and clearly saw both logic and intuition as equal partners in solving the mysteries before him.

For me Sherlock's heart is a mystery, by one hand he is very logical, on the other hand he is intuitive ... however, I can not imagine an expressive Sherlock about his feelings towards people. Rather, I think the mere fact of allowing some access to him it is proved only that interests them enough to have them around. He demonstrate with actions, not with words... at least often

[Sherlock_luvr]

When Sherlock is giving his reasons for hating Magnussen, he says something about CAM preying on people who are 'differen't. The look on BC's face and the way that line was delivered made me think that brought up memories in Sherlock's past where he was preyed upon/teased or worse for being 'different'. Thoughts?

[Ally.C]

Oh, we see Sherlock being criticized for being different right from the beginning. "Freak" isn't exactly a nice way to call someone, eh Sally?

[Slithytove]

/>

 

 

You are free to interpret Sherlock's intentions as you wish - maybe it was to confirm a (thought but unspoken) deduction, maybe he wanted access to material evidence against Mary prior to the arrival of the police to arrest CAM (this is the motive to which CAM refers), or maybe other people have other interpretations. However, what you think a character's motivation might be is nothing more than your personal opinion unless it is stated in the script, which it is not.

Funny that I've pointed to the facts in the script four times now and yet you keep blithely declaring they do not exist. Sherlock's explicitly stated motivation in the script is to see the vault. So, contrary to your claim, it is far more than merely "personal opinion". Nor is it, contrary to your claim, just "personal opinion" that Sherlock recognizes in the cafe that CAM has Appledore in his mind - ie that CAM himself is the "portable Appledore". That explicit revelation is the entire point of that scripted scene. And, contrary to your claim, it is not "personal opinion" but fact that the script reveals Sherlock has the entire plan put together right after discovering the vault is mental rather than digital - right down to the day it will occur - months later on Christmas - and down to the explicit motivation for it: Sherlock's "deal with the devil" is, contrary to your claim, explicitly stated right in the script, to be the betrayal of his brother - not for Mary's files - but to see the vault.

 

Everything I've stated about Sherlock's motivation has, contrary to your claims, been in the script. In fact, the script virtually beats the viewer over the head with it - especially with Sherlock's discovery that Appledore is in CAM's mind. I'm not sure why you keep trying to claim all of this doesn't exist in the script, but if it is more "fun" for you that these scripted facts not exist, then far be it for me to stand in the way of your "enjoyment". If you truly don't want to talk about them further, then I won't discuss them with you any longer either. Seems fair enough.

 

 

See my previous reply.

 

Now on to weightier matters. Will Benedict get a BAFTA for this series? If not, when is the protest march?

 

And will we ever again get to see him wear that purple shirt?

[T.o.b.y]

Now on to weightier matters. Will Benedict get a BAFTA for this series? If not, when is the protest march?

 

Yes, the actor is certainly amazing in this role and one of the few things I think are actually an improvement in series 3 are, that they gave him a much wider range of expressing his character. I loved every minute Sherlock was on screen. They put him in a lot of situations I couldn't even have imagined him in before and took us so much closer to his heart and he always rang true. As long as the main character continues to be this compelling, I think I will love the show, no matter what weird plot twists and holes are in store for us.

[Sherlock_luvr]

Oh, we see Sherlock being criticized for being different right from the beginning. "Freak" isn't exactly a nice way to call someone, eh Sally?

 

You missed my point.

 

Sherlock doesn't 'hate' Sally like he hates Magnussen, who has a very damaging followthrough.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Maybe this year? He has a BAFTA for The Best British Actor of the Year 2013

[Sherlock_luvr]

Maybe this year? He has a BAFTA for The Best British Actor of the Year 2013

 

He got a special award (I don't remember what it was called) at the Critic's Choice Awards last night in Los Angeles.

 

SAG awards are Saturday. Is he nominated?

 

When are the BAFTAS? And is he nominated?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

He's not on the SAG hot list.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

He was at a BAFTA Tea Party yesterday, not sure what that means, exactly. He's not among the nominees for 12 Years A Slave.

[T.o.b.y]

I'm happy to have friendly disagreements!

 

...he doesn't seem to have consummated his "relationship" with Janine, even though she was up for it. Maybe it was because he was being a gentleman, as he knew the relationship would not last beyond its usefulness to him, but it is hardly gentlemanly to pretend to propose to someone, so noble motives seem unlikely. (From Janine's point of view, it would surely have hurt less if he had slept with her and dumped her than if he proposed to her and dumped her.). You would think that, if he was really trying to convince her that his interest was genuine, he would have been intimate with her. (Though she did get to have a bath with him. Lucky girl.)

 

It is true that his lack of interest might be due to fear and/or indifference regarding sex. He does appear to have a low sex drive (unless he has a secret life, which he manages to hide from John who is gobsmacked at the thought of Sherlock with a girlfriend.). However, I think he is remarkably relaxed about suggestion of homosexuality ( unlike John, who is horrified)...

 

Noble motives seem very unlikely. The thing about Janine is, in the original, the girl was a housemaid. And Watson was not so much shocked at Holmes being (apparently) engaged as at his being engaged to a woman of such low social standing (of course he was even more shocked when he found out his friend was heartlessly taking advantage of the girl and lying to her). 

 

Class distinctions not being such an issue anymore today, they had to come up with another way in which Janine seems hugely inappropriate as a mate for Sherlock. I think they did that very well. She's so charmingly vulgar and cheap. Really, really "not in his league". Not classy like Irene or educated and "refined" like Molly, no, a voluptuous, slang-talking, sleazy, "tabloid whore". I really resented her in The Sign of Three, but I have to admit, in His Last Vow, when she came out of his bedroom partly undressed, stomped about the flat and referred to Mycroft as "Mike", I began to really take to her. She is hilarious! And I am so glad she made the best of Sherlock's behavior.

 

So the reason I think he didn't sleep with her is simply that he did not find her attractive. You don't have to be gay for that. I suspect she thought he was gay, though, because of course that explanation would be a lot more flattering to her than the real one...

[Karie]

/>/>

 

 

Maybe this year? He has a BAFTA for The Best British Actor of the Year 2013

He got a special award (I don't remember what it was called) at the Critic's Choice Awards last night in Los Angeles.

 

SAG awards are Saturday. Is he nominated?

 

When are the BAFTAS? And is he nominated?

What?! That was on my tv last night and I changed the channel! If I'd known he would be there I would have kept watching. Oh well, hooray for YouTube!

[cumberholmes]

 

I'm happy to have friendly disagreements!

 

...he doesn't seem to have consummated his "relationship" with Janine, even though she was up for it. Maybe it was because he was being a gentleman, as he knew the relationship would not last beyond its usefulness to him, but it is hardly gentlemanly to pretend to propose to someone, so noble motives seem unlikely. (From Janine's point of view, it would surely have hurt less if he had slept with her and dumped her than if he proposed to her and dumped her.). You would think that, if he was really trying to convince her that his interest was genuine, he would have been intimate with her. (Though she did get to have a bath with him. Lucky girl.)

 

It is true that his lack of interest might be due to fear and/or indifference regarding sex. He does appear to have a low sex drive (unless he has a secret life, which he manages to hide from John who is gobsmacked at the thought of Sherlock with a girlfriend.). However, I think he is remarkably relaxed about suggestion of homosexuality ( unlike John, who is horrified)...

 

Noble motives seem very unlikely. The thing about Janine is, in the original, the girl was a housemaid. And Watson was not so much shocked at Holmes being (apparently) engaged as at his being engaged to a woman of such low social standing (of course he was even more shocked when he found out his friend was heartlessly taking advantage of the girl and lying to her). 

 

Class distinctions not being such an issue anymore today, they had to come up with another way in which Janine seems hugely inappropriate as a mate for Sherlock. I think they did that very well. She's so charmingly vulgar and cheap. Really, really "not in his league". Not classy like Irene or educated and "refined" like Molly, no, a voluptuous, slang-talking, sleazy, "tabloid whore". I really resented her in The Sign of Three, but I have to admit, in His Last Vow, when she came out of his bedroom partly undressed, stomped about the flat and referred to Mycroft as "Mike", I began to really take to her. She is hilarious! And I am so glad she made the best of Sherlock's behavior.

 

So the reason I think he didn't sleep with her is simply that he did not find her attractive. You don't have to be gay for that. I suspect she thought he was gay, though, because of course that explanation would be a lot more flattering to her than the real one...

 

 

thank you so much. I'm happy now 

 

[T.o.b.y]

thank you so much. I'm happy now 

 

 

You're welcome... although I am not quite sure for what. What made you happy?

[BLS_Pro]

"See my previous reply."

Saw it. Refuted it.  You've nothing to add to dispute that refutation?  Okay.

[Caya]

A friendly reminder: If you click on your name at the top right of the forum, a dropdown menu appears. The last option on this should be Manage Ignore Prefs. Click on this and you are taken to a nifty menu that lets you add a user to your Ignore List, and choose whether to ignore said user's posts, messages, signature or all three. You can also choose to ignore signatures as a general rule there.

[Carol the Dabbler]

What I didn't get about Janine though was that she was being blackmailed by Magnusson, yes? He mentions how she reacts to having her face flicked when he is flicking John's face. But she is able to sell her story to his rivals and leave him 'spitting', and swan off to Sussex. How is it possible ....

Well, all we know for sure is that she was his assistant. Maybe he was just practicing his "flicking" technique on her? Or maybe that's how he keeps his employees in line? Magnussen (unlike the original Milverton) apparently extorts power rather than money, so he doesn't seem to bother blackmailing "unimportant" people like Janine. There would be no power for him to gain.

 

Mary doesn't hurt Sherlock much. Sure, she shoots him, but I don't think he was all too crushed by that, he respected her for what she did. Mary is the first person he meets who belongs in his order of beings without being a villain and / or heartless. She seemed angelic at first, but it turns out she is, like him, only on the side of the angels and fully prepared to "burn" if necessary (especially if necessary for the good of a certain John Watson). No wonder Sherlock really likes her and did not want to think ill of her.

Now that is a really interesting analogy!  I shall have to ponder that.