Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Slithytove]

The idea that Sherlock knows in advance that the vault does not exist is possible but it is not there in the script, and the script is the only authority. Anything else that we infer is just our own interpretation. If Sherlock did know in advance, then Benedict is a terrible actor, as his face is a picture of shock and distress when CAM reveals his mind palace. Personally, I think Benedict is a subtle enough actor to be able to convey "aha! I thought so!" if that was what he was meant to be feeling.

 

Jpurposes presence serves no good purpose if Sherlock has planned to murder CAM all along, as he is perfectly capable of going to Appledore as a solo negotiator. In fact, that would be a far more likely way of dealing with a blackmailer. He would just put John in danger for nothing. And why kill CAM in front of armed police? Could the genius not think of a better place for premeditated murder?

 

As for the reference to John's gun, this is standard in the original stories - "Do you have your service revolver, Watson?"

 

Anyway, This is my last word on Mary's deeds as far as HLV is concerned. I just think that, by turning a blind eye to her actions, John is diminished as a brave and good man, which is sad. However, thinking about all of it is beginning to give me a headache....

 

Let's talk about Lestrade! Isn't he great? And not in this episode nearly enough.

[T.o.b.y]

Let's talk about Lestrade! Isn't he great? And not in this episode nearly enough.

 

Lestrade is great. For some reason, he always seems to fade into the background for me. I'll think "oh, Lestrade, nice to see him again, oh look, there's Sherlock!" and then it's all Sherlock.

 

I see no reason why they shouldn't give him a more important part in the next series. And I'd love it if they gave him some reason the cheer up and drink less...

 

[mnfe]

I didn't like this episode as much as I wanted to.  I didn't like that Mary was a CIA operative/Assassin.  I didn't like that Moriarity is back (and apparently that was planned well in advance).  While I enjoyed it, it also made me feel uneasy.  Why?  Moffat.

 

I love Dr. Who, but I don't like the direction the show has gone since Moffat took over.  I don't want to go too deep into specifics, but I feel like some really great elements have become overused, and well established rules of the universe are ignored in favor of the story and then passed off as "timey wimey".  I also thought the latest episode was to wrap up all the loose ends but it really didn't fit together and was really confusing.  And I don't want that to happen to Sherlock.

 

The Angels were great in Blink.  Scary, creepy, unrelenting.  Like Moriarity.  But they kept coming back over and over and reworked until they didn't make sense anymore (Angels Take Manhattan).  I don't want that to happen to Moriarity too.  He was great.  But I don't want him to come back.  I'll buy a twin brother, though.  And I don't want everyone to be a hyper intelligent sociopath/psychopath.  Maybe some of the big villains, but Mary certainly doesn't need to be.

 

So I will wait patiently and watch the next season and hope that it is wonderful and great.  But some of the elements in this episode were a little jarring and makes me wonder where they are going with this in Season 4.

[prosto_tashi]

 

Anyway, all those little plotty bits will get rewritten by fanficcers so I'll be happy soon enough.

 

 

Amen.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I didn't like this episode as much as I wanted to.  I didn't like that Mary was a CIA operative/Assassin.  I didn't like that Moriarity is back (and apparently that was planned well in advance).  While I enjoyed it, it also made me feel uneasy.  Why?  Moffat.

 

I suspect you're right.  His idea of a "strong female character" seems to be a criminal, even if that means going against canon.  Both Irene Adler and Mary Morstan Watson are well written and superbly acted.  But.

 

I also suspect (as I've said on another thread) that pressure from the BBC is having a noticeable effect on the tone of the show.  Did you notice they've made it louder faster more exciting?

 

Unfortunately, Moffat is presumably also a good bit of what's right about the show.  So, practically speaking, our choices may be A] like it, or B] lump it.  Kind of like dealing with Peter Jackson's take on Tolkien.

[sherlockandjohn]

I'm starting to feel that this episode would have been amazing standing on its' own, as a separate film; a spin-off at some point in the future. It really is epic. As a part of the show, and at this time, however, it makes the entire atmosphere too dark and sinister.

[mnfe]

 

I didn't like this episode as much as I wanted to.  I didn't like that Mary was a CIA operative/Assassin.  I didn't like that Moriarity is back (and apparently that was planned well in advance).  While I enjoyed it, it also made me feel uneasy.  Why?  Moffat.

 

I suspect you're right.  His idea of a "strong female character" seems to be a criminal, even if that means going against canon.  Both Irene Adler and Mary Morstan Watson are well written and superbly acted.  But.

 

I also suspect (as I've said on another thread) that pressure from the BBC is having a noticeable effect on the tone of the show.  Did you notice they've made it louder faster more exciting?

 

Unfortunately, Moffat is presumably also a good bit of what's right about the show.  So, practically speaking, our choices may be A] like it, or B] lump it.  Kind of like dealing with Peter Jackson's take on Tolkien.

 

 

Agreed.  Some of my favorite Who episodes were written by Moffat, so there is talent.  I just hope that Gatiss can rein him in a little.   One of the things I like about Sherlock is the cerebral aspect, which I would hate to see lost due to it needing to be bigger, better, faster, more over the top, etc.  I get enough of that from US shows.  I don't want to see Sherlock jump the shark.  (I don't know if that is a phrase only used in the US or if it is globally understood.)

 

[Caya]

Well I'm Austrian and I understand it just fine despite hailing from a landlocked country, so I think the latter is the case .

 

Regardless, I sure hope this won't happen for a good long while . But I'm not as confident about that as I was before series 3 aired, admittedly.

[Karie]

Maybe on the DVDs, they'll have audio commentary for the episodes. If so, I hope they will say when exactly they meant Sherlock to understand what Magnussen's vaults really were and that he was going to (have to) kill him. I also hope somebody else will watch it and then tell me if they did, because I hate audio commentary in general - it drives the fact that what I get so caught up in is totally unreal home rather brutally.

 

I will be devouring the commentaries as soon as my dvds arrive! Love them! I even listened to all three of the audio commentaries for the extended edition Lord of the Rings movies. Coughnerdcoughcough.

[cumberholmes]

Did he used her?... to Janine.... right?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, yeah, he used her for sure.  But then she used him right back, so I guess they're even now.

 

Welcome to Sherlock Forum, cumberholmes! 

 

Some of my favorite Who episodes were written by Moffat, so there is talent.  I just hope that Gatiss can rein him in a little.   One of the things I like about Sherlock is the cerebral aspect, which I would hate to see lost due to it needing to be bigger, better, faster, more over the top, etc.  I get enough of that from US shows.  I don't want to see Sherlock jump the shark.

 
Actually, they've already met the shark, haven't they?  Didn't jump him, just offed him. 
 
But now that villains are allowed to come back from the dead, they may get another chance to jump that ol' shark after all!

 

[cumberholmes]

Oh, yeah, he used her for sure.  But then she used him right back, so I guess they're even now.

 

Welcome to Sherlock Forum, cumberholmes! 

 

Some of my favorite Who episodes were written by Moffat, so there is talent.  I just hope that Gatiss can rein him in a little.   One of the things I like about Sherlock is the cerebral aspect, which I would hate to see lost due to it needing to be bigger, better, faster, more over the top, etc.  I get enough of that from US shows.  I don't want to see Sherlock jump the shark.

 

Actually, they've already met the shark, haven't they?  Didn't jump him, just offed him. 

 

But now that villains are allowed to come back from the dead, they may get another chance to jump that ol' shark after all!

 

Thank you!

I'm sorry but... I'm happy for it. I don't like her for him... and I don't like that part of the episode, actually I prefer Molly to him. Also I have to say that I was in shock when I saw him kissing her...and needless to say when she sat on his leg. Excuse me if I went a little overboard! I'm really sorry. D:

[Karie]

Welcome, cumberholmes! No worries, you didn't go overboard! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's why we're here, after all! 

 

My reaction to Janine is kind of funny.  I started off violently hating her in TSOT, and liked her more and more every time I watched it.  Same for HLV. Hated all that stuff in the apartment on the first go, but become more and more amused with it with each re-watch. I particularly loved John's reactions to those moments. Martin's facial expressions are absolutely amazing! 

[cumberholmes]

Welcome, cumberholmes! No worries, you didn't go overboard! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's why we're here, after all! 

 

My reaction to Janine is kind of funny.  I started off violently hating her in TSOT, and liked her more and more every time I watched it.  Same for HLV. Hated all that stuff in the apartment on the first go, but become more and more amused with it with each re-watch. I particularly loved John's reactions to those moments. Martin's facial expressions are absolutely amazing! 

thank you and thank you! Oh dear... I hate her a lot, I was in shock when I saw her, I'm in shock!! when I saw her with Sherlock..I was so upset and so jealous. Finally I thought: ¨ hey b... don't touch him, you're not good enough for Sherlock. It was hard to keep seeing that chapter... was like a pain in the neck. And after that I went to my mind palace to take a breath and she disappeared. was crazy hahahaha

[BLS_Pro]

If Sherlock did know in advance, then Benedict is a terrible actor, as his face is a picture of shock and distress when CAM reveals his mind palace. Personally, I think Benedict is a subtle enough actor to be able to convey "aha! I thought so!" if that was what he was meant to be feeling.

Interesting that you believe the reaction should be "Aha!  I thought so!" as opposed to "Damn!  Now I have to go through with it and lose John (and likely my life) in order to save him!"  Benedict was quite a wonderful actor if one realizes what the reaction would actually be in those circumstances.

 

 

why kill CAM in front of armed police? Could the genius not think of a better place for premeditated murder?

Already stated why.  So that CAM's henchmen would not act against Sherlock or John - ie the reason for specifically wanting the police there is to protect the two of them.  Quite an act of genius actually.

 

As to a "better place" for the killing (not murder) - the death of CAM was a secondary, not the primary, purpose in going to CAM's place - a purpose wholly dependent upon the outcome of the fundamental purpose in going there.  Sherlock's primary purpose was to confirm or deny his deduction that the vault was in CAM's head.  The vault, as the script explicitly states, is what Sherlock is out to see there - the vault is what he keeps demanding.  Again, recall his "deal with the devil".  Sherlock offers Mycroft up in exchange, not for Mary's files, but to see the vault.  Remember, stick to the script.  It is the "authority".

 

[sherlockandjohn]

Re-watching the episode for the 4th time now, and it's really winning me over. So much great stuff. I just noticed that the music when Sherlock is asked to fall on his back is the track from when he falls in TRF... sniffles!

[Zain]

I think it's Sherlock we should give some credit;

He's human. Not some supernatural, omniscient force.

Sherlock is very intelligent, observant, and excellent at deductive reasoning. And that makes him just as prone to human error as anybody else, maybe even more because he expects to see more than others.

 

I really cannot see how Sherlock planned in advance everything that was to happen at Appledore, especially not Magnussen's death.

 

Why bring John if the ultimate goal was to frame himself? It leaves too much up to chance. Ultimately, it's John's weapon. The question "why did you bring a gun" would be one of the first questions an investigator were to ask. The answer isn't that easy, and it makes him seem just as suspicious. Even if Sherlock pulled the trigger, this does not mean John is off the hook.

If you suggest he brought him on purpose and risked just that, that means he acted very selfishly.  And I cannot see that, the entire episode seems to point to the contrary.

 

It would be fundamentally stupid and destroy the purpose of his mission (to protect Mary and John). While Sherlock has got his flaws and he has been reckless more than once before, this seems a bit far-fetched to me.

 

Personally, I agree with whoever mentioned that idea (sorry, can't find the post right now): Sherlock could have brought John as a witness to the fact that he did not hand over the password to Magnussen and did not trespass but was invited to Appledore. Besides the fact that he probably wanted one more adventure with his friend (the less practical reason ^^).

[Carol the Dabbler]

Just an observation here, but in canon James Moriarty was a professor of mathematics and wrote a book called Dynamics of an Asteroid. Did anyone notice in HLV who the mathematics genius is and the book Dynamics of Mathematics that was written by this person?

 

Just noticed on page 56 of Sherlock: The Casebook that Jim-from-IT's business card reads:

 

Jim Zucco

Dynamic Asteroid

IT & Web Design

07698 164 400

jim@dynamicasteroid.com

 

I don't believe that it was ever shown on television, though, just in the book.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh, that's cute and I missed it!

[leanne_maybe]

/>

Welcome, cumberholmes! No worries, you didn't go overboard! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's why we're here, after all!

 

My reaction to Janine is kind of funny. I started off violently hating her in TSOT, and liked her more and more every time I watched it. Same for HLV. Hated all that stuff in the apartment on the first go, but become more and more amused with it with each re-watch. I particularly loved John's reactions to those moments. Martin's facial expressions are absolutely amazing!

I loved those scenes too - they were really funny! What I didn't get about Janine though was that she was being blackmailed by Magnusson, yes? He mentions how she reacts to having her face flicked when he is flicking John's face. But she is able to sell her story to his rivals and leave him 'spitting', and swan off to Sussex. How is it possible to do deals with a man who has no physical evidence of what he is blackmailing you on? Is she just going to pay him regularly to keep his silence, rather than work for him? And if he is 'spitting',I would have thought his price would be high enough to leave nothing for a cottage in Sussex...!

[leanne_maybe]

/>

I'm starting to feel that this episode would have been amazing standing on its' own, as a separate film; a spin-off at some point in the future. It really is epic. As a part of the show, and at this time, however, it makes the entire atmosphere too dark and sinister.

I agree, this episode did feel more like a movie! And it is pretty dark and sinister, but i'm not sure if I find it any more dark and sinister than the scenes with Moriarty - the Great Game was extremely sinister. I get where people are coming from with John's character apparently changing, but actually it was established from the very first episode that John is a bit dark - Mycroft tells him to fire his therapist as she thinks he has PTSD due to his war experiences, but actually he misses it. And Sherlock emphasises it further - many people may miss aspects of being in the forces, but John specifically misses 'dead bodies and violence'(that's not an exact quote but the gist)as he's seen 'enough for a lifetime' 'want to see some more?' 'God,yes' - he hasn't really changed that much!

[Slithytove]

/>

 

 

If Sherlock did know in advance, then Benedict is a terrible actor, as his face is a picture of shock and distress when CAM reveals his mind palace. Personally, I think Benedict is a subtle enough actor to be able to convey "aha! I thought so!" if that was what he was meant to be feeling.

Interesting that you believe the reaction should be "Aha! I thought so!" as opposed to "Damn! Now I have to go through with it and lose John (and likely my life) in order to save him!" Benedict was quite a wonderful actor if one realizes what the reaction would actually be in those circumstances.

 

/>why kill CAM in front of armed police? Could the genius not think of a better place for premeditated murder?

Already stated why. So that CAM's henchmen would not act against Sherlock or John - ie the reason for specifically wanting the police there is to protect the two of them. Quite an act of genius actually.

 

As to a "better place" for the killing (not murder) - the death of CAM was a secondary, not the primary, purpose in going to CAM's place - a purpose wholly dependent upon the outcome of the fundamental purpose in going there. Sherlock's primary purpose was to confirm or deny his deduction that the vault was in CAM's head. The vault, as the script explicitly states, is what Sherlock is out to see there - the vault is what he keeps demanding. Again, recall his "deal with the devil". Sherlock offers Mycroft up in exchange, not for Mary's files, but to see the vault. Remember, stick to the script. It is the "authority".

You are free to interpret Sherlock's intentions as you wish - maybe it was to confirm a (thought but unspoken) deduction, maybe he wanted access to material evidence against Mary prior to the arrival of the police to arrest CAM (this is the motive to which CAM refers), or maybe other people have other interpretations. However, what you think a character's motivation might be is nothing more than your personal opinion unless it is stated in the script, which it is not.

 

However, I am not going to argue about this any more, as it has stopped being enjoyable and I only visit this forum for a bit of fun. It's only a telly programme, after all.

 

Now, as I was saying DI Lestrade....

[leanne_maybe]

/>

 

/>

 

 

If Sherlock did know in advance, then Benedict is a terrible actor, as his face is a picture of shock and distress when CAM reveals his mind palace. Personally, I think Benedict is a subtle enough actor to be able to convey "aha! I thought so!" if that was what he was meant to be feeling.

Interesting that you believe the reaction should be "Aha! I thought so!" as opposed to "Damn! Now I have to go through with it and lose John (and likely my life) in order to save him!" Benedict was quite a wonderful actor if one realizes what the reaction would actually be in those circumstances.

 

/>/>why kill CAM in front of armed police? Could the genius not think of a better place for premeditated murder?

Already stated why. So that CAM's henchmen would not act against Sherlock or John - ie the reason for specifically wanting the police there is to protect the two of them. Quite an act of genius actually.

 

As to a "better place" for the killing (not murder) - the death of CAM was a secondary, not the primary, purpose in going to CAM's place - a purpose wholly dependent upon the outcome of the fundamental purpose in going there. Sherlock's primary purpose was to confirm or deny his deduction that the vault was in CAM's head. The vault, as the script explicitly states, is what Sherlock is out to see there - the vault is what he keeps demanding. Again, recall his "deal with the devil". Sherlock offers Mycroft up in exchange, not for Mary's files, but to see the vault. Remember, stick to the script. It is the "authority".

You are free to interpret Sherlock's intentions as you wish - maybe it was to confirm a (thought but unspoken) deduction, maybe he wanted access to material evidence against Mary prior to the arrival of the police to arrest CAM (this is the motive to which CAM refers), or maybe other people have other interpretations. However, what you think a character's motivation might be is nothing more than your personal opinion unless it is stated in the script, which it is not.

 

However, I am not going to argue about this any more, as it has stopped being enjoyable and I only visit this forum for a bit of fun. It's only a telly programme, after all.

 

Now, as I was saying DI Lestrade....

Agree with you 100%, Slithytove!

[Slithytove]

/>

 

 

 

Let's talk about Lestrade! Isn't he great? And not in this episode nearly enough.

Lestrade is great. For some reason, he always seems to fade into the background for me. I'll think "oh, Lestrade, nice to see him again, oh look, there's Sherlock!" and then it's all Sherlock.

 

I see no reason why they shouldn't give him a more important part in the next series. And I'd love it if they gave him some reason the cheer up and drink less...

I think most of us would like to see him with Molly. Sadly, I doubt it will happen. If Sherlock is her type, then Greg isn't. Not only physically but mentally and emotionally. Sherlock is a neurotic genius, Lestrade is down-to-earth, stolid and reliable.

 

That is why he is such a good contrast to Sherlock and why we should see more of him. He shares some of John's qualities but John is darker, addicted to danger, where Lestrade is just world weary. We saw very little of him in HLV and I would like to have seen him more involved. In fact, I would like him to be allowed to feature a bit more in the detecting, instead of just turning up to arrest the culprit.

 

One of Sherlock's problems is that he is drawn to people who hurt him (Irene, Mary and, above all, Moriarty) and treats most of those who love him (Lestrade, Molly, Mrs Hudson, his mum and dad) with affectionate contempt. (If ever a man needed therapy.....) So he doesn't care about Lestrade nearly as much as Lestrade cares about him. Greg tries to protect him, does everything he asks and drops everything to rush to his aid. Sherlock never seems to appreciate it.

 

Of course, this sort of behaviour is canon. ACD's Holmes always treated Lestrade as if he was as thick as two short planks and never showed him anything but the most grudging respect.

 

I do think that Rupert Graves is too good an actor for such a small role and should get more screen time. He does get some lovely moments, though. The man-hug when Sherlock returns from the dead and, of course....

 

"Could you whisper?"

 

"NOT REALLY!"

[sherlockandjohn]

 

/>

I'm starting to feel that this episode would have been amazing standing on its' own, as a separate film; a spin-off at some point in the future. It really is epic. As a part of the show, and at this time, however, it makes the entire atmosphere too dark and sinister.

I agree, this episode did feel more like a movie! And it is pretty dark and sinister, but i'm not sure if I find it any more dark and sinister than the scenes with Moriarty - the Great Game was extremely sinister. I get where people are coming from with John's character apparently changing, but actually it was established from the very first episode that John is a bit dark - Mycroft tells him to fire his therapist as she thinks he has PTSD due to his war experiences, but actually he misses it. And Sherlock emphasises it further - many people may miss aspects of being in the forces, but John specifically misses 'dead bodies and violence'(that's not an exact quote but the gist)as he's seen 'enough for a lifetime' 'want to see some more?' 'God,yes' - he hasn't really changed that much!

 

 

He really hasn't, I can see that now - I just needed a couple of days to think about it And it barely bothers me anymore, because he really hasn't changed - meaning he is also still the kind and caring person we all love.