What about Sherlock's feelings for Molly?

[Arcadia]

There you go again, Arcadia, paying attention to what the Moftisses say. Don't believe what I say, either. Just watch the characters and see what they do.

Turn off the sound when I'm watching, you mean? Hmmmm, that might work. Then I can pretend I never heard Sherlock propose to Janine just so he could get into CAM's office... oh, wait, his body language gives him away. Hmm. Rats.

 

However, if you're still reading

Always!

 

let me point out that it's only Moftiss saying that Sherlock is "worse than ever"

Actually, BC's said it too, many times...

 

-- but is he? Or is he merely forced to deal with a no-win situation? Is he acting like a psychopath, like someone who doesn't give a damn for anyone but himself?

Er ... yes? If I go strictly by behavior? Yes. Seriously. Drugging himself? Drugging his family? Shooting a man because it's the only way to win their game?

 

What makes me think he's being selfless is: "Whatever it takes, whatever happens, from now on I swear I will always be there, always, for all three of you." And "Tell Mary she's safe now." And "It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end." Just words. Words, words, lovely words. Sometimes they mean something. We just have to parse out when. And which ones. Man, this show is sure a lot of work........

[Arcadia]

My money is on the former. No way is he acting like a psychopath.....at least on for my money.

You all know I believe this too, right? That I'm just playing with your heads, right? Because I've been listening to the Moftisses and apparently they're contagious .....

[sittything]

 

 

 

We saw exactly in Season Three why he not a sociopath but why he has to clamp down so hard on his emotions for the "Works" sake. We even see it in "TRF"......Moriarty knew Sherlock wasn't a sociopath.....that he had a heart....and look where it got him on Bart's roof?  Emotional blackmail because he had let people get close and he had formed emotional attachments. The same in "HLV". Sherlock Holmes always falls the hardest when he has let his heart out on his sleeve.

 

But I think in all his humanness, and he is, after all, human, that he will hopefully learn to balance a bit more heart all the time and that at some time perhaps he realizes that there is a certain emptiness when it's all work.

 

I haven't really seen much of ELEMENTARY - just a few short clips - but I do know that that Sherlock keeps bees and is very passionate about them.

 

Our Sherlock doesn't really have any obvious hobbies, and I'd like to see him have at least one little thing that he can retreat to at times... 

 

 

He does have his violin..

 

Yes, but so do the other Sherlocks.

 

 

Ooooh... so you mean a hobby that is exclusive to our Sherlock? 

 

[sittything]

 

My money is on the former. No way is he acting like a psychopath.....at least on for my money.

You all know I believe this too, right? That I'm just playing with your heads, right? Because I've been listening to the Moftisses and apparently they're contagious .....

 

 

Moftiss brainwashing.

[Arcadia]

Exactly. They are proper geniuses too, after all.

[Tunguska]

I'm sorry, completely off topic but I have to ask - where do you people find all these fabulous GIFs?

[sittything]

I'm sorry, completely off topic but I have to ask - where do you people find all these fabulous GIFs?

 

Google.   I just do a search under Google images for what I think I'm looking for and stick gif at the end of my search description.   You'll still get some jpgs and stuff, but that's what I do.

[Carol the Dabbler]

There you go again, Arcadia, paying attention to what the Moftisses say. Don't believe what I say, either. Just watch the characters and see what they do.

Turn off the sound when I'm watching, you mean? Hmmmm, that might work. Then I can pretend I never heard Sherlock propose to Janine just so he could get into CAM's office... oh, wait, his body language gives him away. Hmm. Rats.

Just as well that you've already admitted to messing with out heads -- now I don't have to feel bad about getting really brutal with you! No, no, you silly woman! What the characters say is part of what they do -- just don't take their self-assessments too literally -- or other characters' assessments of them, either. Watch how they treat other people.  Especially when it's not for a case.

 

let me point out that it's only Moftiss saying that Sherlock is "worse than ever"

Actually, BC's said it too, many times...

Moftiss have successfully brainwashed him.  Or else it's in his contract. They've even got Martin Freeman talking like he assumes that John really is a whatever-he's-supposed-to-be-this-week.

 

-- but is he? Or is he merely forced to deal with a no-win situation? Is he acting like a psychopath, like someone who doesn't give a damn for anyone but himself?

Er ... yes? If I go strictly by behavior? Yes. Seriously. Drugging himself? Drugging his family? Shooting a man because it's the only way to win their game?

Hey, I didn't say he was normal or anything -- just that he's not a sociopath. Yes, he shot Magnussen, but Magnussen was threatening to have Mary killed (and flicking John's eye *blecch*). So OK, he likes Mary (and John) better than he likes Magnussen. What he did was illegal as hell, and quite possibly immoral as well -- but (in my opinion) hardly sociopathic.  He was protecting his loved ones.

 

What makes me think he's being selfless is: "Whatever it takes, whatever happens, from now on I swear I will always be there, always, for all three of you." And "Tell Mary she's safe now." And "It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end." Just words. Words, words, lovely words. Sometimes they mean something. We just have to parse out when. And which ones. Man, this show is sure a lot of work........

You are allowed to pay attention to those words if his behavior matches up to them. Watch Series 4!

[Arcadia]

Just as well that you've already admitted to messing with out heads -- now I don't have to feel bad about getting really brutal with you! No, no, you silly woman! What the characters say is part of what they do -- just don't take their self-assessments too literally -- or other characters' assessments of them, either. Watch how they treat other people.  Especially when it's not for a case.

"Watch (ha ha, there's an off switch, John!) how they (marry me, Janine!) treat (glad you lost your fiance, Molly!) other (what exactly is the point of you, Mrs. Hudson!) people (Gavin? Garth? Gawain? Goliath?)."  Not your best argument, Carol! 

 

 

 

let me point out that it's only Moftiss saying that Sherlock is "worse than ever"

Actually, BC's said it too, many times...

 

Moftiss have successfully brainwashed him.  Or else it's in his contract. They've even got Martin Freeman talking like he assumes that John really is a whatever-he's-supposed-to-be-this-week.

 

 Now that I believe!!!!

 

Yeah, what is Martin this week, anyway? BC's been hogging all the spotlight, I'm losing track of MF.

 

Watch Series 4!

B-b-b-b-but, what if the Moftisses carry through on their threats???????

[T.o.b.y]

 

So maybe we need to just pay attention to how the characters are actually behaving, and pay no attention to the men behind the curtain.

Absolutely right. I think a lot of people miss the subtle clues that Sherlock is not, and a lot of other people have been pointing this out as well. sociopath he tries so hard to be so that his heart does not overtake and overwhelm his head.

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS is why I get so crazy!! Because this is exactly the kind of thing Moftiss says: "Sherlock is not the sociopath he tries so hard to be so that his heart does not overtake and overwhelm his head." So if I'm ignoring the men behind the curtain, then I'm ignoring their claim that Sherlock is NOT a sociopath. And if I'm ignoring their claim that Sherlock is NOT a sociopath, then am I to assume the script is accurate, and he IS a sociopath? (A murderous sociopath, to boot!) But if I believe he IS a sociopath, but then someone points out that the creators say he's NOT a sociopath, and I say no, no, we're ignoring the creators, and they say how can you ignore the creators, it's their show, they should know, and then my head goes blooey all over the place and makes a disgusting pile of goo ... who's gonna clean up the mess?

 

*Goes off in the corner with Anderson and starts gibbering.*

 

Congratulations, Moftiss, you just drove another one off the deep end!

 

<--- normal brain

  <--- my brain on Sherlock

 

 

Sherlock is just Sherlock. We might never know exactly what that entails, but I think we do know that he does not really fit into any pre-existing categories. 

 

I like how I'm never quits sure about him. I do of course still need some moments of honesty. I can't enjoy the show doubting every emotion he displays. But that, I think, we get. It's clear, in my mind, that there are people Sherlock loves. John, Mrs Hudson, Molly, his family in a scratchy family sort of way. He genuinely likes and trusts Lestrade. He genuinely did feel something for Irene Adler and he remembers her fondly and with a certain longing. His need to show off seems real, and the underlying fear of Mycroft being proven right in the end after all, and himself turning out to be a disappointment. His enthusiasm for his work, his fascination with puzzles and problems, his love of a good adventure, his flair for drama. His contempt for stupidity, his hatred of Magnussen. All real.

 

Love, friendship, trust, fear, pride, longing, hate - it's all there. Sherlock is far from soulless. He's human, all right. That's all I need to feel there is a certain solidity and depth to his characterization, and that, in turn, is all I need to love him. Good, bad, sociopath, autistic, "normal"... who knows. Who cares, actually? He's just Sherlock.

[Tea&Nicotine]

I agree with T.o.b.y to a T!  I've only read this one page, so I might be out of the water (sorry!).  Sherlock calls himself a 'high-functioning' sociopath--so does that mean some characteristics can just be negated because he's high-functioning?  I don't know if it works like that--the tendencies are there, sure, but...  To me, Sherlock is just a very interesting (and high appealing) onion.  Unless someone studies the chemical juices in his brain, who really knows?  Throw in a dash of fictional salt, make it believable, and I'm good to go.

 

Goodness, I have spent too much time trying to form a snippet of an answer.  Sherlock makes my head hurt.

[Carol the Dabbler]

That's my understanding of "high-functioning," yes -- the person has the basic syndrome, but not so severely that they can't function in everyday life -- or else they're sufficiently inventive to work around their symptoms.  Of course there's considerable doubt that Sherlock is any sort of a sociopath.  He's socially awkward, certainly, but it has been conjectured that he uses the label "sociopath" simply to keep people from expecting him to do things that he doesn't feel like doing.

 

I wonder if "sociopath" might have been one of the names that Mycroft called him as a child.  (Pot, meet Kettle.)  Then, as people often do, he defiantly claimed it for himself.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I wonder if "sociopath" might have been one of the names that Mycroft called him as a child.  (Pot, meet Kettle.)  Then, as people often do, he defiantly claimed it for himself

 

  Yeah, I have been thinking the last couple of days that actually Mycroft does seem to be a sociopath in the truer sense of the word then Sherlock is. I do think that Sherlock has retreated behind that label in self defense. Sentiment not being an advantage and all of that.

[sittything]

Bakerstreet, I don't think you're actually suggesting that Mycroft is a sociopath, right?  I don't think he fits that bill at all. I think Mycroft has too must respect for the law, authority and the government to be a sociopath.  He's not socially deviant at all and definitely conforms to social norms.  He'd have to conform to get to where he is.... I mean that minor government position and all.  

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I'm not sure that that is true. He moonlights and has dealings with the like of the American CIA, he "Is the British Government" in some sense of that phrase....and he respects the Law and authority?  Over his own?  I have my doubts about that.

[sittything]

I was going to respond here... but I'm gonna move is Mycroft a sociopath over to his own thread.  

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

I think Mycroft is just really mean. Look at how he treats Sherlock.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Let's pretend I didn't forget to read the name of the thread before I posted. :/

[sittything]

Awww... I don't think Mycroft is just really mean.  I think Mycroft thinks he is doing Sherlock a great service with all of his rather harsh brotherly advice and guidance, but I don't think he's doing it just to be inherently mean.

[Carol the Dabbler]

He isn't even actually mean to Molly! 

 

[Arcadia]

Hmmmm. I think Mycroft is mean. Sometimes he's mean on purpose, when he thinks it will goad Sherlock into doing something he wouldn't otherwise do. Other times he's mean without thinking; he automatically diminishes almost everything his brother does. My guess is, he does that to protect himself; no matter what he says, he knows Sherlock will respond with suspicion and/or resentment and/or sarcasm. So he phrases everything in such a way to imply that what Sherlock says or does is of no matter to him. And I think he's frustrated that Sherlock isn't "properly" utilizing his gifts. It all adds up to being bossy, and being bossy is a bit mean, don't you think?

 

Also, I think Sherlock's mean right back, most of the time. That's one reason I loved the "hat deduction" -- Sherlock got one up on Mycroft there, but he wasn't nasty about it.

[Arcadia]

Oh, and Sherlock used to be mean to Molly but now he's trying not to ... except when she slaps him, and maybe he's sort of justified at that point? -- and I'm really curious to find out if Molly's opinion of him has changed after the events of HLV.

[sittything]

He isn't even actually mean to Molly! 

 

You mean Mycroft, right?  No he's not!  He's pretty ambivalent about her so that's practically winning for Molly!

 

Although, have they ever been around one another other than the ID'ing of Irene Adler in the morgue?

[Arcadia]

I've been trying to think the same thing! I don't remember anything else.....

[SherlockedCAMPer]

So far the only interaction between Molly & Mycroft was at the morgue.  And there, Sherlock was attempting being nice (despite being brief in his interaction) probably because of what happened earlier at Baker Street.