What about Sherlock's feelings for Molly?

[Arcadia]

You know, I actually think Molly would destroy Sherlock.  Not on purpose, of course, but, while I really enjoyed the "solving crimes date" scenes, I don't want that dynamic for him in his daily life.  He needs to be able to be acerbic and smart-alecky and irreverent in order to do his job.  I think there is a carefulness that he has when he's with Molly that is endearing in small doses but not really good for him as a person.

I'd agree if I thought Sherlock would remain careful around her, but I think eventually he'd crack and start abusing her again. But that's a good point .... he's not exactly himself around her. (And suddenly I hear Mark Gatiss going, "Or IS he?" Maybe that's the real Sherlock and the acidic one is just a front!)

 

What I'd really like to see is him be all "acerbic and smart-alecky and irreverent", and Molly sass him right back. And then share a genuine laugh. Friendship.

[sittything]

I think I misread some of his softness with Molly as something probably more than what they mean it to be,  mostly because he doesn't treat anyone else that way, not even Mrs. Hudson.

 

I totally agree though that Sherlock in a relationship is not a good idea for the show.  It's more like Sherlock and Molly is a nice idea... but just that, an idea.  *sigh*  All of the videos ruined me last night.

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

I think I misread some of his softness with Molly as something probably more than what they mean it to be,  mostly because he doesn't treat anyone else that way, not even Mrs. Hudson.

I don't think you misread it at all; I think that's just part of the game Moftiss plays with us. Feelings for Molly ... does he or doesn't he? With just one slight change in BC's facial expression it could still be the "old Sherlock" manipulating the heck out of her. Maybe he's just gotten better at hiding his duplicity. Or maybe his feelings are real.

 

I don't think I mind Moftiss' evasiveness, exactly, but I do wonder how long they can sustain it before the audience just gets tired of it. I have a feeling they'll work that out.

[sittything]

Soooo.... the audience is to Moftiss as John is to Sherlock?  

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

Yep, right down to forgiving them for anything as long as we get Sherlock back!

[Carol the Dabbler]

... at least one person on this show needs to represent us normal people, since John no longer seems to.....

Hey, you try discovering that the love of your life is actually a former CIA agent who just shot your best friend -- and see how normal you feel then. 

 

Precisely! I liked "normal" John, I don't want "psychopath" John, but I don't get a say in it .....

Oh dear, that's not what I meant at all!  I meant, if you were in John's shoes, you might be having a bit of trouble getting your bearings too, and trying to cope.  I have never bought terribly far into the "adrenaline junkie" idea, and I sure as hell don't buy into the "psychopath" nonsense at all.  Notice who's saying that sort of thing about John: Mycroft, Sherlock, and Mary -- three incredibly normal human beings!  Yeah, could be "takes one to know one," but could just as easily be -- ahh, what's the word? -- at any rate, they could be interpreting John's behavior as "psychopathic" simply because that's [supposedly] what motivates their own behavior.  In my view, John is still reasonably normal, it's just that his surroundings have become increasingly weird.

 

Wait?  What?  Why is John not normal now?  Because of Mary?  Because he chose to stay with Mary?

Not because he chose to stay with her, but because, in Sherlock's words, he "chose her." Because, in Mary's words, "it's what you like." Because CAM called them "Mr. and Mrs. Psychopath." And because John didn't contradict any of them. Personally, I hope he proves them all wrong next season!

If CAM said that about me, I wouldn't bother contradicting him either.  Why should I?  As for contradicting Mycroft, Sherlock, and Mary, could be John was feeling a bit ganged-up-on?  Maybe starting to worry that they were right?  That would be perfectly normal.

 

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

I think I misread some of his softness with Molly as something probably more than what they mean it to be,  mostly because he doesn't treat anyone else that way, not even Mrs. Hudson.

 

I totally agree though that Sherlock in a relationship is not a good idea for the show.  It's more like Sherlock and Molly is a nice idea... but just that, an idea.  *sigh*

 

I think they'll always be how they were -- crossing paths, parting, crossing again, but never staying together. Molly's too domestic, Sherlock's too wild, so I don't think they'll end up together together. But I do think Sherlock does care about her to some extent at least.

[T.o.b.y]

Precisely! I liked "normal" John, I don't want "psychopath" John, but I don't get a say in it .....

 

I have never thought of John as "normal", and I don't think they changed his character all that much for series 3. He's just gone through a shitload. First Sherlock's suicide and mourning his death, then finding out it was all a lie and Sherlock expected him to find it funny, then what happened with Mary... Of course those things must take their toll.

 

 

You know, I actually think Molly would destroy Sherlock.  Not on purpose, of course, but, while I really enjoyed the "solving crimes date" scenes, I don't want that dynamic for him in his daily life.  He needs to be able to be acerbic and smart-alecky and irreverent in order to do his job.  I think there is a carefulness that he has when he's with Molly that is endearing in small doses but not really good for him as a person.

 

And I agree with your PS.  Ladies, if you find a man to be emotionally stunted, it's not romantic to try to "fix" him, it's stupid.  Leave him for someone who wants his degree of emotional involvement, and find someone else who satisfies you.  Plenty of fish in the sea. 

 

In real life: Totally agree with you. In fiction: Whaaaat? Where's your sense of romance?

 

That's an interesting idea, that Molly would be too much for Sherlock in the end, and not the other way around. I kind of like that. I mean, she is strong. In some ways, she might be stronger than him. My feeling at the moment is that he's played, briefly, with the idea of getting together with her, and she has actually been the one who won't let that happen - and not (just) because of Tom!

[Arcadia]

Clarification: when I referred to "psychopath John," I meant I was afraid that may be how he's presented in the future. I don't see it either, so far. It seems ridiculous to me, quite frankly. But Moftiss seems wedded to the idea that they are all "maniacs", so I get nervous!

[Carol the Dabbler]

OK, I see your point.  But all the while they've been calling Sherlock a "sociopath" and even a "psychopath," they've been painting him as progressively more compassionate.  So maybe we need to just pay attention to how the characters are actually behaving, and pay no attention to the men behind the curtain.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

So maybe we need to just pay attention to how the characters are actually behaving, and pay no attention to the men behind the curtain.

 

 

  Absolutely right. I think a lot of people miss the subtle clues that Sherlock is not, and a lot of other people have been pointing this out as well. sociopath he tries so hard to be so that his heart does not overtake and overwhelm his head.

[sittything]

I've learned to take a lot of what is said by writers on shows with a grain of salt.  Sometimes they don't even follow what they themselves say, or they change their minds over the seasons as the show evolves and changes.  Or I think they willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.

 

Although, if Sherlock wants to keep calling himself a high-functioning sociopath....  Well you do you, Sherlock.  You do you.

[Arcadia]

So maybe we need to just pay attention to how the characters are actually behaving, and pay no attention to the men behind the curtain.

Absolutely right. I think a lot of people miss the subtle clues that Sherlock is not, and a lot of other people have been pointing this out as well. sociopath he tries so hard to be so that his heart does not overtake and overwhelm his head.

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS is why I get so crazy!! Because this is exactly the kind of thing Moftiss says: "Sherlock is not the sociopath he tries so hard to be so that his heart does not overtake and overwhelm his head." So if I'm ignoring the men behind the curtain, then I'm ignoring their claim that Sherlock is NOT a sociopath. And if I'm ignoring their claim that Sherlock is NOT a sociopath, then am I to assume the script is accurate, and he IS a sociopath? (A murderous sociopath, to boot!) But if I believe he IS a sociopath, but then someone points out that the creators say he's NOT a sociopath, and I say no, no, we're ignoring the creators, and they say how can you ignore the creators, it's their show, they should know, and then my head goes blooey all over the place and makes a disgusting pile of goo ... who's gonna clean up the mess?

 

*Goes off in the corner with Anderson and starts gibbering.*

 

Congratulations, Moftiss, you just drove another one off the deep end!

 

<--- normal brain

  <--- my brain on Sherlock

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

We saw exactly in Season Three why he not a sociopath but why he has to clamp down so hard on his emotions for the "Works" sake. We even see it in "TRF"......Moriarty knew Sherlock wasn't a sociopath.....that he had a heart....and look where it got him on Bart's roof?  Emotional blackmail because he had let people get close and he had formed emotional attachments. The same in "HLV". Sherlock Holmes always falls the hardest when he has let his heart out on his sleeve.

[Carol the Dabbler]

So maybe we need to just pay attention to how the characters are actually behaving, and pay no attention to the men behind the curtain.

Absolutely right. I think a lot of people miss the subtle clues that Sherlock is not, and a lot of other people have been pointing this out as well. sociopath he tries so hard to be so that his heart does not overtake and overwhelm his head.

... this is exactly the kind of thing Moftiss says: "Sherlock is not the sociopath he tries so hard to be so that his heart does not overtake and overwhelm his head." So if I'm ignoring the men behind the curtain, then I'm ignoring their claim that Sherlock is NOT a sociopath. And if I'm ignoring their claim that Sherlock is NOT a sociopath, then am I to assume the script is accurate, and he IS a sociopath? (A murderous sociopath, to boot!) But if I believe he IS a sociopath, but then someone points out that the creators say he's NOT a sociopath, and I say no, no, we're ignoring the creators, and they say how can you ignore the creators, it's their show, they should know, and then my head goes blooey all over the place and makes a disgusting pile of goo ... who's gonna clean up the mess?

Now there you go again, listening to what people are saying about the characters.  Well, you can listen to Moftiss -- and the characters -- if you like, but whatever you do, don't automatically believe what any of them say.  What counts is how the characters behave.  Sherlock does not act like a sociopath, even though he himself claims to be one.  John does not act like a sociopath, even though the entire Holmes family claims he is one.  (And I don't think Mary is a sociopath either, but at this point I don't know her well enough to say.)

 

[sittything]

 

So maybe we need to just pay attention to how the characters are actually behaving, and pay no attention to the men behind the curtain.

Absolutely right. I think a lot of people miss the subtle clues that Sherlock is not, and a lot of other people have been pointing this out as well. sociopath he tries so hard to be so that his heart does not overtake and overwhelm his head.

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS is why I get so crazy!! Because this is exactly the kind of thing Moftiss says: "Sherlock is not the sociopath he tries so hard to be so that his heart does not overtake and overwhelm his head." So if I'm ignoring the men behind the curtain, then I'm ignoring their claim that Sherlock is NOT a sociopath. And if I'm ignoring their claim that Sherlock is NOT a sociopath, then am I to assume the script is accurate, and he IS a sociopath? (A murderous sociopath, to boot!) But if I believe he IS a sociopath, but then someone points out that the creators say he's NOT a sociopath, and I say no, no, we're ignoring the creators, and they say how can you ignore the creators, it's their show, they should know, and then my head goes blooey all over the place and makes a disgusting pile of goo ... who's gonna clean up the mess?

 

*Goes off in the corner with Anderson and starts gibbering.*

 

Congratulations, Moftiss, you just drove another one off the deep end!

 

 

 

You just need to remember that a lie is most convincingly hidden between two truths.    So you can't 100% ignore them anymore than you can 100% believe all they say. 

 

[Arcadia]

Ahem.

 

So......

 

So, what I know that you don't know, or maybe you do know but I don't know that you know, is that I've been listening to the Empire podcast that was taped shortly after S3 aired. Very entertaining, one of the better interviews with Moftiss, possibly because it's not filtered through, er, a reporter? At any rate:

 

Carol the Dabbler: "But all the while they've been calling Sherlock a "sociopath" and even a "psychopath," they've been painting him as progressively more compassionate."

 

Mofftiss: "In the first two episodes everyone thinks he's gone a bit soft, haven't they? Then in episode 3 you discover, oh no, he's worse than ever! Ha ha ha ha ha ha...."

 

Me: "Arrrrhghghgh!!!!!!"

 

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=39814

 

And they never mention Molly. Not even once! (See how neatly I segued back to the actual topic?)

[sittything]

 

Mofftiss: "In the first two episodes everyone thinks he's gone a bit soft, haven't they? Then in episode 3 you discover, oh no, he's worse than ever! Ha ha ha ha ha ha...."

 

 

That sounds so maniacal just reading that.  lol.  But then I have this mental image of laughter like Mycroft....

 

[Arcadia]

....  Well, you can listen to Moftiss -- and the characters -- if you like, but whatever you do, don't automatically believe what any of them say....

You just need to remember that a lie is most convincingly hidden between two truths.    So you can't 100% ignore them anymore than you can 100% believe all they say.

But I WANT to believe!!!! :cry: :cry: Next you lot will be telling me Redbeard didn't really cross the Rainbow Bridge! Oh, wait ......

 

When are we getting the men-in-white-jackets-coming-to-take-me-away emoticon? Also the head exploding emoticon? I'm not sure I can make it to 2016 without them........

[Carol the Dabbler]

Carol the Dabbler: "But all the while they've been calling Sherlock a "sociopath" and even a "psychopath," they've been painting him as progressively more compassionate."

 

Mofftiss: "In the first two episodes everyone thinks he's gone a bit soft, haven't they? Then in episode 3 you discover, oh no, he's worse than ever! Ha ha ha ha ha ha...."

 

Me: "Arrrrhghghgh!!!!!!"

There you go again, Arcadia, paying attention to what the Moftisses say.  Don't believe what I say, either.  Just watch the characters and see what they do.

 

However, if you're still reading, let me point out that it's only Moftiss saying that Sherlock is "worse than ever" -- but is he?  Or is he merely forced to deal with a no-win situation?  Is he acting like a psychopath, like someone who doesn't give a damn for anyone but himself?

 

[Arcadia]

.... But then I have this mental image of laughter like Mycroft....

Ha, and I bet everyone here thinks that's just coinkydink...... (insert sulking emoticon here).

[sfmpco]

We saw exactly in Season Three why he not a sociopath but why he has to clamp down so hard on his emotions for the "Works" sake. We even see it in "TRF"......Moriarty knew Sherlock wasn't a sociopath.....that he had a heart....and look where it got him on Bart's roof?  Emotional blackmail because he had let people get close and he had formed emotional attachments. The same in "HLV". Sherlock Holmes always falls the hardest when he has let his heart out on his sleeve.

 

But I think in all his humanness, and he is, after all, human, that he will hopefully learn to balance a bit more heart all the time and that at some time perhaps he realizes that there is a certain emptiness when it's all work.

 

I haven't really seen much of ELEMENTARY - just a few short clips - but I do know that that Sherlock keeps bees and is very passionate about them.

 

Our Sherlock doesn't really have any obvious hobbies, and I'd like to see him have at least one little thing that he can retreat to at times... 

[sittything]

 

We saw exactly in Season Three why he not a sociopath but why he has to clamp down so hard on his emotions for the "Works" sake. We even see it in "TRF"......Moriarty knew Sherlock wasn't a sociopath.....that he had a heart....and look where it got him on Bart's roof?  Emotional blackmail because he had let people get close and he had formed emotional attachments. The same in "HLV". Sherlock Holmes always falls the hardest when he has let his heart out on his sleeve.

 

But I think in all his humanness, and he is, after all, human, that he will hopefully learn to balance a bit more heart all the time and that at some time perhaps he realizes that there is a certain emptiness when it's all work.

 

I haven't really seen much of ELEMENTARY - just a few short clips - but I do know that that Sherlock keeps bees and is very passionate about them.

 

Our Sherlock doesn't really have any obvious hobbies, and I'd like to see him have at least one little thing that he can retreat to at times... 

 

 

He does have his violin...

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Or is he merely forced to deal with a no-win situation?  Is he acting like a psychopath, like someone who doesn't give a damn for anyone but himself?

 

 

  My money is on the former. No way is he acting like a psychopath.....at least on for my money.

[sfmpco]

 

 

We saw exactly in Season Three why he not a sociopath but why he has to clamp down so hard on his emotions for the "Works" sake. We even see it in "TRF"......Moriarty knew Sherlock wasn't a sociopath.....that he had a heart....and look where it got him on Bart's roof?  Emotional blackmail because he had let people get close and he had formed emotional attachments. The same in "HLV". Sherlock Holmes always falls the hardest when he has let his heart out on his sleeve.

 

But I think in all his humanness, and he is, after all, human, that he will hopefully learn to balance a bit more heart all the time and that at some time perhaps he realizes that there is a certain emptiness when it's all work.

 

I haven't really seen much of ELEMENTARY - just a few short clips - but I do know that that Sherlock keeps bees and is very passionate about them.

 

Our Sherlock doesn't really have any obvious hobbies, and I'd like to see him have at least one little thing that he can retreat to at times... 

 

 

He does have his violin..

 

Yes, but so do the other Sherlocks.