What about Sherlock's feelings for Molly?

[sfmpco]

But the point is that Molly would have known those headlines existed.  But we don't see Molly anymore except during the Moriarty revelation at the end.  Just a moment of startled terror.  So it will be interesting in S4 to see how she deals with Sherlock over the Janine thing.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

That will definitely be interesting to see how Molly and Sherlock interact and if she does/says anything to Sherlock regarding Janine.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... she's not mousy Molly anymore... She has brought him to task several times and each time he submits to her correction.

Sounds like she's the kinder, gentler Irene Adler!  ;)  (Which might be just his type....)

 

Sherlock's behavior towards women in general is interesting, isn't it? On the one hand I get the feeling he considers women rather silly and goopy. On the other hand, he can be quite gallant towards them....

 

But aren't those the two sides of the same Victorian coin? Women are inferior and therefore must be protected?

[sfmpco]

There's a lot of fanfiction that makes Tom out to be Sebastian Moran and Janine to be Moriarty's sister, neither of which I suspect to be true.  I've even read one fanfic where Tom was actually MI6 and worked his way into Molly's life as a means of protecting her while SH was undercover.  Interesting but IF Moriarty were still alive (and I don't think he is), he would definitely come after Molly and then there would be hell to pay with Sherlock.  Romantic feelings or not, he does not like the women in his life messed with.  And Molly protected (and still protects) his secrets revolving around his fake death.  He saved Irene and put her in his own personal witness protection, and he nearly killed the CIA guy for messing with Mrs. Hudson....and last but not least, he killed Magnussen to protect/save Mary (and John).

[Arcadia]

 

Sherlock's behavior towards women in general is interesting, isn't it? On the one hand I get the feeling he considers women rather silly and goopy. On the other hand, he can be quite gallant towards them....

 

But aren't those the two sides of the same Victorian coin? Women are inferior and therefore must be protected?

 

Yup. I was thinking that, actually. But not only Victorian, just immature generally. "Girls have cooties, ew! But a brave pirate must avenge the wronged." It's kind of cute. You almost hate to see him outgrow it.

[Boton]

 

 

Sherlock's behavior towards women in general is interesting, isn't it? On the one hand I get the feeling he considers women rather silly and goopy. On the other hand, he can be quite gallant towards them....

 

But aren't those the two sides of the same Victorian coin? Women are inferior and therefore must be protected?

 

Yup. I was thinking that, actually. But not only Victorian, just immature generally. "Girls have cooties, ew! But a brave pirate must avenge the wronged." It's kind of cute. You almost hate to see him outgrow it.

 

 

I think it's actually cuter on ACD Holmes.  He wouldn't have had as many women cross his path in a meaningful way, so he could be expected to have a more child-like attitude toward women since he just didn't have the experience.  Frankly, I feel the same way about the Russian Sherlock.

 

But our Sherlock?  That man can't move without tripping over a woman that's in his day-to-day life.  He'd better sort that stuff out!

[T.o.b.y]

I've never thought of Sherlock Holmes as misogynistic. He said some disparaging things about women, sure, but no worse than what people in his culture generally believed to be true, and whenever we hear of him actually interacting with women, he is absolutely lovely. And he speaks with them and expects them to respond like rational creatures. That was not exactly the norm back then, from all I know. He valued women who were brave, strong, intelligent and resourceful - Miss Adler, Miss Hunter, Miss Stoner, Miss Morstan - while Watson usually had nothing better to do than drool over their appearance.

 

Modern BBC Sherlock really is a bit like a little boy about women and sex, or rather like a young teenage boy, especially in A Scandal in Belgravia. I find that very endearing, somehow. It's changing, I think. He's growing up... *sigh*. It happened so fast...

 

Sometimes I'm not quite sure whether I have a crush on Sherlock or just wish he were my son, like Mrs Hudson. Which would be absurd, because I'm younger than he is!

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

 

I don't know why, but I can't imagine Molly being really happy for a long time if she actually got what she's been pining for. I'm probably just projecting my real-life experiences here.

 

I think that in the end, even if Molly and Sherlock did become boyfriend-girlfriend, they wouldn't have any chance at a stable relationship, because Sherlock puts cases and puzzles above almost everything else.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

I'm still dying that they're so adamant that telling her she counts, has always counted is him telling her he loves her.  Wha?!?!   

 

Well, he at least cares very, very deeply about her. That's kinda the first step to love, right?

[sfmpco]

 

I'm still dying that they're so adamant that telling her she counts, has always counted is him telling her he loves her.  Wha?!?!   

 

Well, he at least cares very, very deeply about her. That's kinda the first step to love, right?

 

 

Yes, yes it is.  But he was gone a very long time to dismantle Moriarty's network and everyone got on with their lives, even Molly. It's hard to keep up the pining for someone who isn't even there physically to pine for and who doesn't communicate because he's undercover.  She would have held out some hope for a little while, but then she would have moved on.  That's when flesh and blood Tom came into the picture.  He may have been in her life on the fringes...says they met in a pub through friends - but sometimes you can't see something new (Tom) until you let go of the thing blocking your vision (Sherlock).  Ultimately, however, I think she would have found Tom a bit boring.

 

I do remember some interview where Moffat said that Sherlock and Molly would never get together because they were both psychopaths but good grief he uses that word loosely and incorrectly.  There is absolutely nothing psychopathic or sociopathic about Molly.  I count her and Lestrade as two of the most "normal" characters on the show.  Along with Donovan and Dimmick (would like to see him return).  But Molly is normal, the girl next door, somewhat shy and awkward.  But normal and sweet.

[T.o.b.y]

I do remember some interview where Moffat said that Sherlock and Molly would never get together because they were both psychopaths but good grief he uses that word loosely and incorrectly.  There is absolutely nothing psychopathic or sociopathic about Molly.  I count her and Lestrade as two of the most "normal" characters on the show.  Along with Donovan and Dimmick (would like to see him return).  But Molly is normal, the girl next door, somewhat shy and awkward.  But normal and sweet.

 

That's what we think now. God knows what they'll do with her in the future!

 

Nobody is entirely normal on this show. Not even the landlady. And I see what Moffat (I think it was Moffat) meant, there. I mean, what nice normal girl next door would

 

1.) Fall in love with Sherlock for real, in the flesh

2.) Date Moriarty

3.) Have no problem with aiding and abetting Sherlock in faking his own death, up to messing with documents like a death certificate and thereby committing grave crimes that could cost her her profession, if not her freedom, in case Mycroft decided it wasn't worth while to back her up

4.) Keep silent about the fact that Sherlock is alive for two whole years, while his best friend is depressed and traumatized

 

Also, Molly is a forensic pathologist who routinely handles dead bodies and deceased people's insides. Now, I think that is a perfectly normal and ordinary job, but I have a feeling the Sherlock writers don't.

 

[sfmpco]

#2 is not fair because she didn't know it was Moriarty... and she broke it off

 

Also, although some fanfictions speculate that there was occasional communication of "I'm still alive" between Sherlock and Molly during those two years, the show has not indicated (yet) that they were in any kind of communication during those two years.  For all she knew, he could have been killed at any time anyhow, and then John's grieving would have been just as valid anyhow.

 

Yes, she is a forensic pathologist in a teaching hospital, and dealing with autopsies and cadavers is her job.  And apparently she's very good at it because that's a very hard job to get.  That doesn't make her a psychopath, but it does make her probably very smart, like the top of her class.

[Arcadia]

I have to admit it never occurred to me she was a pathologist until I read some of the fan fics. She comes across as more of a lab tech to me. But it would be cool if she is a pathologist.

[Arcadia]

Nobody is entirely normal on this show. Not even the landlady. And I see what Moffat (I think it was Moffat) meant, there. I mean, what nice normal girl next door would

 

1.) Fall in love with Sherlock for real, in the flesh

2.) Date Moriarty

3.) Have no problem with aiding and abetting Sherlock in faking his own death, up to messing with documents like a death certificate and thereby committing grave crimes that could cost her her profession, if not her freedom, in case Mycroft decided it wasn't worth while to back her up

4.) Keep silent about the fact that Sherlock is alive for two whole years, while his best friend is depressed and traumatized

 

Also, Molly is a forensic pathologist who routinely handles dead bodies and deceased people's insides. Now, I think that is a perfectly normal and ordinary job, but I have a feeling the Sherlock writers don't.

1. Alas, I might. If I didn't strangle him first.

2. I agree with Bendy.

3. People do strange things for love.

4. See three.

 

But I agree, nobody's normal ... as I think I've said before (I've been on this forum so long I'm repeating myself!) I think that's one of the themes of this show. Which I love.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've never thought of Sherlock Holmes as misogynistic. He said some disparaging things about women, sure, but no worse than what people in his culture generally believed to be true, and whenever we hear of him actually interacting with women, he is absolutely lovely. And he speaks with them and expects them to respond like rational creatures. That was not exactly the norm back then, from all I know. He valued women who were brave, strong, intelligent and resourceful - Miss Adler, Miss Hunter, Miss Stoner, Miss Morstan - while Watson usually had nothing better to do than drool over their appearance.

I fully agree with your assessment of the canon Holmes.  However, I'm not so sure about your description of Watson, so I am going to check his reactions to the four women you mention:

 

Miss Irene Adler ("A Scandal in Bohemia") -- Watson calls her "the late Irene Adler, of dubious and questionable memory."  When she enters her house, he mentions that "she ... stood with her superb figure outlined against the lights ...."  Later, he feels ashamed when he sees "the beautiful creature against whom I was conspiring," and "the grace and kindliness with which she waited upon the injured man."

 

Miss Violet Hunter ("The Copper Beeches") -- Watson first describes her as "a young lady ... plainly but neatly dressed, with a bright, quick face, freckled like a plover's egg, and with the brisk manner of a woman who has had her own way to make in the world."  He later tells Holmes, "she seems to be a young lady who is very well able to take care of herself."

 

Miss Helen Stoner ("The Speckled Band") -- When Watson first sees her, she is "in a pitiable state of agitation, her face all drawn and grey, with restless frightened eyes, like those of some hunted animal.  Her features and figure were those of a woman of thirty, but her hair was shot with premature grey, and her expression was weary and haggard."

 

Miss Mary Morstan (The Sign of the Four) -- Watson says she "entered the room with a firm step and an outward composure of manner," then describes her as "a blonde young lady, small, dainty, well gloved, and dressed in the most perfect taste."  After describing "the plainness and simplicity" of her clothing in some detail, he continues, "Her face had neither regularity of feature nor beauty of complexion, but her expression was sweet and amiable, and her large blue eyes were singularly spiritual and sympathetic.  In an experience of women which extends over many nations and three separate continents, I have never looked upon a face which gave a clearer promise of a refined and sensitive nature."  As this is a long story, there's more description of her here and there, but I believe that's typical of it.

 

Watson's "three continents" comment from Sign is what many people (including Moffat and Gatiss) love to interpret as meaning that the doctor is a womanizer, but either it's an exquisite example of Victorian circumlocution, or the poor man (although clearly not blind) has been sadly maligned.  Judging by the samples above, he seems to pay more attention to a woman's character and manner than her appearance, and the woman he falls in love with is no classic beauty.  So I must disagree with you.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I have to admit it never occurred to me she was a pathologist until I read some of the fan fics. She comes across as more of a lab tech to me. But it would be cool if she is a pathologist.

 

That's what I assumed as well, because of the way she defers to Sherlock.  There have been a few hints, one way or the other (e.g., "I do post mortems," and someone calling her "Miss Hooper"), but nothing even close to definitive.  It'd be nice to know for sure.

[T.o.b.y]

 

I have to admit it never occurred to me she was a pathologist until I read some of the fan fics. She comes across as more of a lab tech to me. But it would be cool if she is a pathologist.

 

That's what I assumed as well, because of the way she defers to Sherlock.  There have been a few hints, one way or the other (e.g., "I do post mortems," and someone calling her "Miss Hooper"), but nothing even close to definitive.  It'd be nice to know for sure.

 

Yes, it would. For me, she's always been a forensic pathologist, because who else would be in charge of the dead bodies in the morgue? Who else would do the post-mortems? And pathology involves a lot of lab work, so that fits in as well.

 

Of course Molly could be an assistant to a forensic pathologist, but in that case, why do we never see her boss? Also, if she wasn't the one who signs the paperwork, then how could she have single-handedly arranged for Sherlock to be officially dead?

 

No, no, the story just makes a lot less sense if Molly is not what I think she is. Not that that's proof of anything, sadly.

 

I wonder whether Molly and Sherlock went to university together or how else they met. How long do you think they've known each other when we first see them together in A Study in Pink?

 

 

Oh, Carol you are absolutely right of course about poor Watson and those ladies. I just have this idea stuck in my head of the doctor staring at female clients' breasts while Holmes thinks about their cases, which is of course totally unfair. But I do think he was meant to be something of a womanizer, while still being a perfect gentleman, of course. I am sure Doyle never meant to imply anything improper. And of course anybody would look like a womanizer next to Holmes, who never showed the slightest bit of interest save for Miss Adler.

 

[sittything]

Here's some interesting blog posts on what Molly's job title actually is:

 

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/68816603719/why-miss-molly-hooper-would-be-a-surgeon

 

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/70125757369/molly-is-a-doctor-and-there-is-finally-proof

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, Carol you are absolutely right of course about poor Watson and those ladies. I just have this idea stuck in my head of the doctor staring at female clients' breasts while Holmes thinks about their cases, which is of course totally unfair. But I do think he was meant to be something of a womanizer, while still being a perfect gentleman, of course. I am sure Doyle never meant to imply anything improper. And of course anybody would look like a womanizer next to Holmes, who never showed the slightest bit of interest save for Miss Adler.

As you say, it's obvious that Watson is more overtly interested in women (as potential love interests) than Holmes is, but that's not saying much!

 

I can't argue with your head canon, of course, any more than you could argue with mine, but I would dispute your use of the word "womanizer," which the Oxford online dictionary defines as "a man who engages in numerous casual numerous casual sexual affairs with women (used to express disapproval)," and for which it lists the following synonyms:

 

philanderer, Casanova, Don Juan, Romeo, Lothario, flirt, ladies' man, playboy, seducer, rake, roué, libertine, debauchee, lecher;

informal

skirt-chaser, ladykiller, wolf, goat, lech

 

That hardly seems a fair description of the good doctor, despite his obvious appreciation of the opposite sex!  How about "typical healthy male"?

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Here's some interesting blog posts on what Molly's job title actually is:

 

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/68816603719/why-miss-molly-hooper-would-be-a-surgeon

 

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/70125757369/molly-is-a-doctor-and-there-is-finally-proof

 

Wow, thank you, sitty!  I've read many of wellingtongoose's blog posts on Live Journal, but that collection does not include the second one you linked to.  Apparently Molly really is a doctor -- I say "apparently" because I see no information as to where wellingtongoose got that picture of Molly's badge.  Does anyone have any info on that?

[sittything]

 

Here's some interesting blog posts on what Molly's job title actually is:

 

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/68816603719/why-miss-molly-hooper-would-be-a-surgeon

 

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/70125757369/molly-is-a-doctor-and-there-is-finally-proof

 

Wow, thank you, sitty!  I've read many of wellingtongoose's blog posts on Live Journal, but that collection does not include the second one you linked to.  Apparently Molly really is a doctor -- I say "apparently" because I see no information as to where wellingtongoose got that picture of Molly's badge.  Does anyone have any info on that?

 

 

I haven't been able to find the source for that picture yet.  If I do, I'll let you know.  The only place I can locate that image via a Google search is on that blog.  

[T.o.b.y]

I've never noticed a name tag or badge on Molly's costume. I miss details like that - I'd be a rotten detective.

 

It is entirely possible that Molly's character underwent some changes as the show developed, that she was at first meant to be lab technician or assistant of some kind at the morgue or that her exact job description was never given much thought at first, because she was originally just conceived as a minor character for Sherlock to play off of in that one scene in the first episode. Then, when it became apparent how good the actress is and how well the characters works, they probably expanded on her role and her background.

 

But let's not dwell on that; I like to pretend these are real people. In that vein, could it be that we got Molly all wrong at first, because we only saw her with Sherlock? Maybe the "real" Molly isn't so very shy and awkward at all! By this time, we know she has friends, a love life, goes to the pub and likes a drink. That doesn't sound so very unsociable to me. And when, in series 3, we finally see her without Sherlock being around (when she talks to Lestrade over "Helen Louise"'s brain and when she calls Mrs Hudson on the phone), she seems a lot less timid. Perhaps it's just Sherlock who reduces her perfectly confident self to a small-voiced wallflower, because he's so intimidating and she has such a crush on him. Who knows? Attraction does strange things to people.

 

Of course I want to believe Molly is really shy and a bit socially inept, because I identify with her that way, but I'm beginning to wonder whether there's actually any evidence for that on screen.

[sittything]

I always assumed Molly was a doctor because of the white lab coat and the fact that she was performing postmortems.  Not that all doctors where white lab coats here, in fact most of my doctors don't, but here in the states the white coat seems to be symbolic of a doctor or med student. 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

 

 

And now I've fallen down the YouTube rabbit hole:

Again?

 

Again.  I give up.  I ship it.

 

ETA:  I've just decided to embrace it.

 

 

Somebody pick up the phone because I FRIGGIN CALLED IT!!

[sittything]

 

 

 

And now I've fallen down the YouTube rabbit hole:

Again?

 

Again.  I give up.  I ship it.

 

ETA:  I've just decided to embrace it.

 

 

Somebody pick up the phone because I FRIGGIN CALLED IT!!

 

 

lol... what?