Speedy's Cafe - General Chat about anything you like!

[Arcadia]

I'm also a bit tired of seeing stories where women simply become like men in order to achieve equality. What I mean is, they are just as physically strong as men, or just as competitive, or just as ruthless as their male counterparts.... as if "womanly" virtues like cooperation and empathy have no value. Meh.

[T.o.b.y]

Oh my god, has the feminism debate made it all the way over here? Okay... um... I've been thinking about this for so long now - ever since I learned it was a thing in the US and in social media I don't use - that my head is one big muddle and I don't know where I stand any more.

 

Where I live, it's still totally okay to call yourself a feminist and everybody I know takes that to mean "a woman who is pro gender equality."

 

It's great if in the US, the playing field has become so level that some people think there's no need for feminism any more. Lovely. As long as I hear phrases like "this really isn't a job for women" / "this is not a girl project" / "no breeding for at least five years now!" (to a woman who has just signed a job contract), "not another part-time mommy" etc every goddamn day at my place of work, I will continue to identify as a feminist. To say nothing of the women I see coming to our part of the world from places where it's illegal for them to drive a car, to dance, or so much as show their face in public.

 

As for how the feminist movement has played out so far, I agree with you, Arcadia, in that I think it was a huge mistake to just try and fit into traditionally male roles, thus accepting that the world made by men for men over the course of over a thousand years is fine and dandy the way it is, all we have to do is adapt to it and "prove that we're just as good at it" - "it" often being things I neither like nor want.

 

Take this "pay gap" thing. Why is it totally okay that women earn less money if it's "only" because they take more time out of their lives to look after children and other family members who need help, or because the jobs they prefer pay less? Are these occupations actually worth less? I'm sorry, I still see injustice there somewhere...

 

Of course all sorts of people can be assholes, no matter what they call themselves, and feminists are no exception. I am not the least bit surprised that there are people who use that label to justify hatred, reverse sexism, selfishness, whining, whatever. That's just the way human beings are in general.

 

I'd better shut up now. It's all a mess. People are discouraging.

[J.P.]

Maybe it's because I grew up in the "real existing socialism" where the equality seemed to be a bit more real existing. I hardly felt discrimination, beside the obvious things that mother nature gave us. It also could be my upbringing which let me be a tomboy and didn't make much fuss about gender roles (I was more often tinkering at our car with my dad than doing any girly stuff like cooking) It could also be just me, being hardly a girly girl. So I seldom felt like I was in any way restricted. Beside that - telling me that a girl cannot do something was the best way to make me proof the opposite. And I always had the impression that women are to blame for some of the clichees.

 

Hell, I can even understand why the employers pay women less, or prefer men. I see almost every young woman which came to our company getting pregnant within first two years... which I wouldn't like if I was an employer. Of course the salaries in the film industry are another story.

 

What annoys me about the "feminism" is continuously blaming - the men, the patriarchate, whatsnot - instead of looking for solutions for both sides.

[J.P.]

Crossposted with TOBY.

Oh, you should see my reaction on statements like not a girl project. :D

 

Anyway, it is indeed a mess, and there are places in this world where women still face discrimination... I just cannot identify with the vision of feminism I'm mostly confronted with.

 

And we don't need to debate it here. Just wanted to share something that stroke a chord with me.

[J.P.]

Well, something different.

 

I just had a laugh at something I found by Amazon:

The Dame of Baker Street

(The Baker Street Chronicles Book 1)

von M.e. Hobbs (Autor), Mark Gatiss (Autor), Stephen Moffat (Autor)

 

 

A new girl moves into 221C Baker Street, and it infuriates Sherlock that he cannot read her.

 

date of publication is November 2015

 

Okay, someone is definitely spying on me. And I think I know who it is. 

 

[T.o.b.y]

Crossposted with TOBY.

Oh, you should see my reaction on statements like not a girl project. :D

 

Anyway, it is indeed a mess, and there are places in this world where women still face discrimination... I just cannot identify with the vision of feminism I'm mostly confronted with.

 

And we don't need to debate it here. Just wanted to share something that stroke a chord with me.

 

Oh, we can debate all we like, it might be good for my blood pressure... I was freezing cold all day, now I'm feeling quite warm. :P

 

I find it really hard to express what I think and feel on this matter. I'm almost at a point with it where I don't even try any more, because I can't change the world anyway and it wouldn't really help me or anybody else if I could get someone to understand my opinion (provided I could get my opinion sorted out in the first place).

 

"Women against feminism". What's next - "citizens against democracy"? Oh, wait - I can think of at least two political parities in my country at this moment who could be adequately described as just that.

 

I just can't reject that label. If my grandmother, mother, great-aunts, female teachers, etc. had not been feminists, I would not have a job today. I would not have been allowed to vote in the last election. I would not still be living under my own name. Sure, in an ideal scenario, feminism would be only a transient movement that dies a natural death once gender equality is established. But we're in a situation where literally thousands of years of male dominance were followed by only a few decades of equality - in theory, and only in some lucky parts of the world. It's ridiculous to believe that there's any kind of true balance yet.

 

Take this tomboy thing. Why is it cool to be a tomboy? I mean, it's totally fine if you are, F*** gender norms, everybody can be who they want, yeah, yeah, I agree. But why do we applaud girls for wearing pants and tinkering with cars and see this as a sign of progress? Because those are traditionally male things, and "male" is still better than "female", no matter who is doing it. Try to wear makeup or play with dolls as a boy in our enlightened society, and you'll get a very different reaction.

 

 

Man, I sound pretty heated, don't I? So sorry. I do not mean to be unpleasant, in this nice, civilized little corner of the internet of all places. (And I'm not a proper feminist anyway, apparently, because I don't want to slap Steven Moffat :P).

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

It's great if in the US, the playing field has become so level that some people think there's no need for feminism any more.

I don't think that's exactly what they're saying.  More like, there's still a place for feminism -- even though a great deal of improvement has been made -- but some of us don't like the direction it's been going lately.  So the protest is not against feminism per se, it's against "feminism" as currently advocated by many groups.

 

Take this "pay gap" thing. Why is it totally okay that women earn less money if it's "only" because they take more time out of their lives to look after children and other family members who need help, or because the jobs they prefer pay less? Are these occupations actually worth less? I'm sorry, I still see injustice there somewhere...

Here in the US, the highest-paying jobs tend to demand the total devotion of the employee.  One must basically live the job.  And many people (especially women, I think) don't see that as a good thing, so we choose not to get ourselves into such positions.  I guess I'm glad there are people who want to work 24/7 if that's what it takes, just as I'm glad that there are people who actually want to be brain surgeons, airline pilots, etc.  And I'm perfectly happy for them to be paid more than I am -- call it combat pay!

 

Of course all sorts of people can be assholes, no matter what they call themselves, and feminists are no exception. I am not the least bit surprised that there are people who use that label to justify hatred, reverse sexism, selfishness, whining, whatever. That's just the way human beings are in general.

 

True.  And that's exactly the brand of "feminism" that the women on that website are against.

 

I always had the impression that women are to blame for some of the clichees.

 

I think that's changing, but yes.  Women of my mother's generation took it for granted that their husbands had the final word, for example (to quote Mom, "Well, somebody has to be in charge"), but women of my generation started to question that assumption.  However, I find myself wondering whether the current self-proclaimed "feminists" aren't just perpetuating the stereotypes with their demands.

 

What annoys me about the "feminism" is continuously blaming - the men, the patriarchate, whatsnot - instead of looking for solutions for both sides.

Exactly!

 

[J.P.]

It's not like I don't support the idea. I don't support the expression, at least sometimes.

[Carol the Dabbler]

"Women against feminism". What's next -[....]

 

I just can't reject that label. If my grandmother, mother, great-aunts, female teachers, etc. had not been feminists, I would not have a job today. I would not have been allowed to vote in the last election. I would not still be living under my own name.[....]

 

According to that article, the great majority of women who post on the "women against feminism" site are NOT anti-equality, they are merely protesting what often goes by the name of "feminism" these days -- the man-bashing, etc.

 

Take this tomboy thing. Why is it cool to be a tomboy? I mean, it's totally fine if you are, f*** gender norms, everybody can be who they want, yeah, yeah, I agree. But why do we applaud girls for wearing pants and tinkering with cars and see this as a sign of progress? Because those are traditionally male things, and "male" is still better than "female", no matter who is doing it. Try to wear makeup or play with dolls as a boy in our enlightened society, and you'll get a very different reaction.

That's an excellent point, and I think you're right.  However, that's changing as well.  When I was a kid, I would have loved to take woodworking shop instead of home economics, but it never even occurred to me to ask, because girls took home ec, period.  Nowadays, I've heard that some schools (maybe all or most, I don't know) allow the kids to choose for themselves.  And more husbands share the housework, especially if their wives also have outside jobs.  And so forth.

 

I'm not too worried about the makeup and dolls, quite frankly.  The dolls that I've seen lately tend more toward over-endowned Barbies than cute little baby dolls, and I'd be just as happy to see that trend die out in favor of dolls that look like normal people -- men, women, and children -- and maybe then it'd be OK for boys to play with them.  (I never did "get" makeup.)

 

[Caya]

Maybe it's because I'm Austrian and my dear country is still quite behind the curve in views of equality (link to an article in today's newspaper, German obviously, but the graphics should be language-independent) or maybe it's because I'm a gamer and that hobby is still very much a front of cultural clashes between the sexes (if you want an example, google GamerGate but trust me, you really don't want to), but I'm with Toby here. Yeah, times have changed a great deal and I'm deeply thankful for that. But you know what? They didn't change because our foremothers asked nicely. They changed because they fought for equality, for what should be damn basic rights for everyone but still aren't everywhere, and no, we still aren't fully equal even here in Europe and the US. Okay, so some feminists go overboard, agreed - every movement has their kooks and fanatics. But that doesn't mean that the whole movement is dead or that we should abandon the label, imo.

 

Feminism has never stood for elevating women over men, no matter what those MRA guys claim. If some peculiar women try to apprehend the label for themselves to give it that meaning, all the more reason, I think, to fight back for it. Brave women before our times risked a lot (up to their liberty and sometimes even their lives) under the banner of feminism. It's a proud heritage and I'm happy to call myself a feminist, not because I believe women are special or have a connection to the Earth Mother or what have you, but because I think that equality makes for better lives for men and women. No need to find a new label, imo. The originall still works just fine.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Time to take back the word, eh?  Can't argue!

 

[Arcadia]

Or find a new word, which is what I felt these ladies said they were doing ... not turning their backs on feminism, but rejecting the modern interpretation of the word.

[Inge l-w]

Ladies, it has been most instructive and amusing to follow the latest conversation.

I can only speak from personal experience, unfortunately. Both parents being doctors, equality in household-chore-sharing was a given, and if you thing Smaug is a dragon, you have had the great good fortune not to have known my maternal grandmother, my aunt and my mother! In their defence, I can only say they knew they were ladies before they found out they were dragons! Bossing all the menfolk around as the day is long! I formed a defensive alliance with my lovely, long-suffering dad, both grandfathers having been killed in the war. Other male members of the family were treated politely and were cared for, but not overly deferred to. Dad used to joke that he was the head of the family, but Mum was the boss. I should count myself among the fortunate few, then.

Anyway, we're grammatically handicapped because we use 'man' (meaning oneself) to speak about both male and female subjects!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Anyway, we're grammatically handicapped because we use 'man' (meaning oneself) to speak about both male and female subjects!

 

Speak for yourself!  :D

 

I still use a few compound words with "man" in them, such as "handyman" (since all the ones I know are, in fact, men).  But to me, "man" by itself means "adult male human," and "men" is the plural thereof (despite my fondness for Prof. Tolkien's works).

[Caya]

I believe she was speaking of the German man, Carol, which is roughly equivalent to the English one (as in One does what one has to do and such uses) or the French on (alors on danse and such).

[J.P.]

@Inge  -- But you are not for exchanging those words with something else, do you? :P

[Inge l-w]

Even the latest Rechtschreibung (correct usage) regulations couldn't replace that! Any suggestions are more than welcome!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Even the latest Rechtschreibung (correct usage) regulations couldn't replace that! Any suggestions are more than welcome!

 

Thank God that the English language doesn't have usage police!

[Caya]

It's more of a tri-national committee (not that much better, agreed ;)) that comes together every couple years and lays down rules for "official" grammar and orthography. Ain't nobody comin' to haul you back to grammar school if you refuse to replace daß with dass, no worries . No idea why English doesn't have anything similar - though the fact that, for German, only three countries are involved and those are neighbours makes getting together over such matters easier, admittedly.

[Carol the Dabbler]

It's more of a tri-national committee (not that much better, agreed ;)) that comes together every couple years and lays down rules for "official" grammar and orthography. Ain't nobody comin' to haul you back to grammar school if you refuse to replace daß with dass, no worries . No idea why English doesn't have anything similar - though the fact that, for German, only three countries are involved and those are neighbours makes getting together over such matters easier, admittedly.

 

I cannot imagine that Americans would ever have agreed to such a thing, so if such a committee did exist, it would be only for British English and/or some of its other offshoots.  Even if the American government had at some point signed a usage treaty, how would they get people to go along with the rulings?  For one thing, the Constitution guarantees freedom of the press, so the print media would be free to go with whatever spelling and usage they liked.  Public schools and state universities might be about the only institutions that would adhere to the standards.

 

Of course, there are ad hoc standards now, with the problem (if you want to call it that) being that there's more than one.  There's "correct" usage as taught in schools, and then there are several versions of real-life American English.  Fortunately, we all seem to understand one another, even if some teachers aren't happy.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Heard it from Hannibal series, I went and did a couple of internet researches and found it's legit.

 

Careers with the most psychopaths.

 

Another web also lists career with the least psychopaths.

 

To sum them up,

Most psychopaths:

 

1. CEO

2. Lawyer

3. Media (Television/Radio)

4. Salesperson

5. Surgeon

6. Journalist

7. Police officer

8. Clergy person

9. Chef

10. Civil servant

 

 

Least psychopaths:

1. Care aide

2. Nurse

3. Therapist

4. Craftsperson

5. Beautician/Stylist

6. Charity worker

7. Teacher

8. Creative artist

9. Doctor

10. Accountant

 

 

Thoughts?

[Arcadia]

Yeah ... remind me to never have surgery ...

[Arcadia]

Hmm... seems to me he's using the term "psychopathy" pretty broadly too.

[Van Buren Supernova]

That's true.

I can see the logic that they prefer positions with power and manipulation opportunity though.

 

Chef is a bit interesting, why? They used to cut-up body parts or because they have power in their hand? Ah, I may have just answered my own question.

 

But therapists as one of the least? I thought it could be easy to get themselves overwhelmed. It's quite similar to psychiatric right?

[Arcadia]

Might depend on what kind of therapist he's referring to. I thought the same thing you did, but it occurs to me he could mean like a physical therapist. That would be more like care worker and nurse.

 

I'm surprised to see civil servant in the "most" list, that doesn't fit with the ones I know. But again, he might have a more specific group in mind -- the bureaucratic types.