Molly Hooper

[SanaB]

I think it's quite easy what she wants. He is her big brother. She likes him. She doesn't want to be alone. She just wants him to play with her. Violine or something else. The whole episode was a game. She wants to challenge her brother the way siblings do. In her case it's just a very disgusting game ;)

[Arcadia]

IMO the ILU call had a reason. It was Eurus tactic to make Sherlock remember what really happened in his childhood. He was once a very sensitive child who was able to love. He loved his sister and his best friend. But this love and this kind of loss caused so much pain in him that he closed all these feelings inside a "cobin" and burried it deep in his inner self. He started acting emotionless.

Eurus knew this and she must have observed him and his life for a while.

But in order to bring these memories back that lead him towards her, she must use a key to break this cobin again and set those feelings free. And she has chosen Molly to be this key. It suprised me how Eurus had known it will work out.

Molly wanted Sherlock to say these words like he means them. He knew he couldn't play games because Molly would feel the difference, not like Janine in the past. So he had to open this cobin again...and beside love all the other feelings came free along with it. That's why he destroyed the cobin at the end. The cobin was what he had done to himself.

I'm just curious why Eurus didn't kill Molly at the end. She had done her job, she "opened" Sherlock.

 

OOoooo, this is brilliant! I didn't think about the coffin representing Sherlock himself. I'm adopting it for my own! :D

 

(By the way, I think the word you want is "coffin", not "cobin." Sounds similar, but different words.)

 

I think Eurus didn't kill Molly because it turned out she was just bluffing about her flat being rigged for explosives. In other words, she didn't have any way of killing Molly at that time.

 

 

 

Ohhh, I have to disagree there. Eurus' grand scheme was to "eviscerate" Sherlock, and that's when she succeeded. For whatever reason, that was the moment  he lost his cool. Interpret his emotions how you like, he was definitely having them as he smashed that coffin to bits.

 

The mystery to me is why Eurus was going after Sherlock in the first place. Boredom? Pretty elaborate for that. Revenge? You wouldn't think she'd care that much whether he played with her or not. But it's sort of implied she did. (?) But I'm in the wrong thread.

 

I always considered Eurus to be jealous of Sherlock, partly an extreme case of sibling rivalry, coupled with a recognition of certain shared traits she had with him that were quite unique to the family, and yet he seemed capable of making all sorts of connections that she could never manage, despite her desire to do so. If anything, her efforts actually succeeded in pushing people away and isolating her further.

 

So she wanted to dissect Sherlock in terms of his connections with others, to figure out what he had that she did not. Though, admittedly i'm also unclear as to where she saw the whole thing going- she reminded me of a child picking the legs off an insect because she could, more so that someone with a scientific aim at the end of it all.

 

 

Oooooo again! Adopting this too! :D

 

I'll see what I can do about the misquote, I didn't really look at it after I "fixed" it.

 

ETA: Fixed it again.

[Arcadia]

I think it's quite easy what she wants. He is her big brother. She likes him. She doesn't want to be alone. She just wants him to play with her. Violine or something else. The whole episode was a game. She wants to challenge her brother the way siblings do. In her case it's just a very disgusting game ;)

 

That makes sense, but what confuses me is that Mycroft says she can't tell what she's feeling ... so how does she know she likes Sherlock? How does she know she's lonely? That's when I start getting confused! :d

[J.P.]

Maybe feelings and be able to recognize/name them are different things?

[SanaB]

@ Arcadia: Thanks for your help. I sometimes still mixup words in English. Shame on me.

 

I think Eurus knows she is lonely. She is still the little child inside. Isolated in her brillant mind longing for someone to reach her. She is the only awake person in a world of sleepers. The sad existence of a genius like her. The only two she could reach are Microft and Sherlock. Mocroft isn't much interested but Sherlock had a sensitive core as a child. An easy access for her. And she wants this access again..

[Arcadia]

So do you think she knew she could make Sherlock "rescue" her if she could just awake his feelings? Or do you think she was trying to get revenge on him for not playing with her as a child? A little bit of both, maybe?

 

I really should move all this to the TFP thread ... maybe later tonite.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Germany always seems to be the last country to air new episodes -- apparently because they take the time to dub the dialog in German.  How do you feel about all that, Sana?
 

... she mentioned her dead father as a sad person. She saw parallels to Sherlock. My first thought was that her father maybe was depressive and that he maybe killed himself and now she has no family left.

 
Here's that scene from Ariane DeVere's transcript:
 

MOLLY: You’re a bit like my dad. He’s dead. No, sorry.
SHERLOCK: Molly, please don’t feel the need to make conversation. It’s really not your area.
MOLLY: When he was ... dying, he was always cheerful; he was lovely – except when he thought no-one could see. I saw him once. He looked sad.
SHERLOCK (sternly): Molly ...
MOLLY: You look sad ... (she glances towards John) ... when you think he can’t see you. Are you okay? And don’t just say you are, because I know what that means, looking sad when you think no-one can see you.
SHERLOCK: But you can see me.
MOLLY: I don’t count.

 
(I've emphasized the part I think you're talking about.)  It doesn't sound like suicide to me.  She says "when he was dying" -- which sounds to me like he knew he would die soon, presumably due to some illness.  So he had good reason to be sad, but was nevertheless cheerful most of the time, so that doesn't sound like depression either, just normal sadness.
 
Of course, he might have killed himself sometime after the incident Molly mentions, in order to avoid the inevitable progression of the disease, but I don't think that's what Molly was talking about.  In any case, yes, it's possible that she has no family left.  I can't think that we've ever heard her talk about any other family members.
 

I think Eurus didn't kill Molly because it turned out she was just bluffing about her flat being rigged for explosives. In other words, she didn't have any way of killing Molly at that time.

 
But that just postpones the question:  Why didn't she actually have Molly's flat rigged?  My guess is that she felt it was irrelevant, so why bother.  She could have done it if she'd wanted to -- couldn't have been any harder than getting a grenade drone into 221B, just more labor-intensive.
 

... Mycroft says she can't tell what she's feeling ... so how does she know she likes Sherlock? How does she know she's lonely?

She doesn't have to know those things.  All she has to know is what she wants.  And she wants Sherlock to "play with her."

 

[gerry]

Molly wanted Sherlock to say these words like he means them. He knew he couldn't play games because Molly would feel the difference, not like Janine in the past. So he had to open this cobin again...and beside love all the other feelings came free along with it. That's why he destroyed the cobin at the end. The cobin was what he had done to himself.

I do like the idea that the coffin was more a metaphor for Sherlock himself because I never bought that it was about empathy for Molly.  Still don't know how making Molly say ILY does that but then again I have trouble believing that Sherlock genuinely loves Molly given how we've seen him with her.

 

then agin I don't think there is enough information on screen to be sure that's what the new dynamic is between the characters at the end of the episode.

How do you interpret the montage then?

 

I don't personally believe they gave other story lines priority or that Molly didn't matter to the story, rather I believe that they left that aspect vague because it did matter and it mattered to the writers view of the character that the Molly/ Sherlock aspect was left undefined. Which is not to say it doesn't annoy me a bit too, but I think it was a deliberate aim successfully achieved, rather than an oversight of a lack of time/ priority.

Molly was barely on in season 4. Not sure if she was so important, that would be the case. Why would the show need Molly/Sherlock undefined especially if they didn't expect season 5, if at all?

[Artemis]

In any case, yes, it's possible that she has no family left.  I can't think that we've ever heard her talk about any other family members.

 

In the coffin scene, Sherlock deduces that whoever it's intended for is "distant from her close relatives".  So even if she has some family left, they're apparently not too much a part of her life.

[Arcadia]

Maybe it's not that Molly is important to the plots so much, but that she's an important part of revealing the character of Sherlock? She illuminates parts of him no one else does, such as in the scene Carol quoted above, or when he apologizes to her during Scandal. Small scenes, but important to the overall understanding that Sherlock is not the sociopath he pretends to be.
 

 

I think Eurus didn't kill Molly because it turned out she was just bluffing about her flat being rigged for explosives. In other words, she didn't have any way of killing Molly at that time.

 
But that just postpones the question:  Why didn't she actually have Molly's flat rigged?  My guess is that she felt it was irrelevant, so why bother.  She could have done it if she'd wanted to -- couldn't have been any harder than getting a grenade drone into 221B, just more labor-intensive.

 

As Sherlock would say, I don't know, you tell me! Oh, wait, you just did. :D

 

 

... Mycroft says she can't tell what she's feeling ... so how does she know she likes Sherlock? How does she know she's lonely?

She doesn't have to know those things.  All she has to know is what she wants.  And she wants Sherlock to "play with her."

 

Simpler if she had just asked him to, then. Just sayin'. :P

 

Since we now have posts mixing both Molly and Eurus discussions, I'm just leaving the whole kit and caboodle right here. I am nothing if not good at stirring up messes.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe it's not that Molly is important to the plots so much, but that she's an important part of revealing the character of Sherlock? She illuminates parts of him no one else does

 

I believe somebody (pretty sure it was Sana, but can't seem to find it just now) said something very similar a little while, something like Molly is a mirror for Sherlock. I'll have to think before I agree or disagree, but at least two of you seem to be of that opinion.

 

Regarding the ILY scene, we may be all wrong about its intent. Like her brothers, Eurus seems to be far better at understanding other people's emotions than her own -- so she may well have anticipated Molly's reaction. What if her purpose was NOT to see what happened when Molly said ILY? What if Eurus correctly anticipated that Molly would insist that Sherlock go first, and wanted to see how THAT would affect him?

[SanaB]

@ Carol The Dabbler:

 

Well, it's always annoying to wait longer and yes I think it's because of the translation although some series are translated very fast and come out close after the english premier or at the same time. But this one isn't. In Germany every foreign production is translated into german, there are no subtitles.

I'm often in London, usually I try to watch it earlier but this time I couldn't.

 

Because of Mollys dad: You are right, I had it differently in mind. Maybe also a translation mistake? But okay...Molly compared and sensed at least that something seems to bother Sherlock a lot. His inner coffin ;)

[SanaB]

So do you think she knew she could make Sherlock "rescue" her if she could just awake his feelings? Or do you think she was trying to get revenge on him for not playing with her as a child? A little bit of both, maybe?

 

I really should move all this to the TFP thread ... maybe later tonite.

I wrote something about it in the series 4 thread. I think she follows her existential needs.

[SanaB]

Eurus must have observed Sherlock for a while. And well, if Sherlock is good at analysing Eurus is at least as good as him. That's why she had choosen Molly to do the job. Molly must gain some kind of feelings in him. And Molly has the ability to reach his sentimental self. She proofed it in Belgravia for example.

[bedelia1984]

 

then agin I don't think there is enough information on screen to be sure that's what the new dynamic is between the characters at the end of the episode.

How do you interpret the montage then?

 

 

Well, the bit with Molly I thought was to show she was still a presence in Baker street whilst leaving the relationship between them undefined.

 

 

 

I don't personally believe they gave other story lines priority or that Molly didn't matter to the story, rather I believe that they left that aspect vague because it did matter and it mattered to the writers view of the character that the Molly/ Sherlock aspect was left undefined. Which is not to say it doesn't annoy me a bit too, but I think it was a deliberate aim successfully achieved, rather than an oversight of a lack of time/ priority.

Molly was barely on in season 4. Not sure if she was so important, that would be the case. Why would the show need Molly/Sherlock undefined especially if they didn't expect season 5, if at all?

 

 

Maybe it's not that Molly is important to the plots so much, but that she's an important part of revealing the character of Sherlock? She illuminates parts of him no one else does, such as in the scene Carol quoted above, or when he apologizes to her during Scandal. Small scenes, but important to the overall understanding that Sherlock is not the sociopath he pretends to be. 

 

I  would agree with what Arcadia is saying here, that she might not have had a lot of screentime, but that she was shown as important to Sherlock's character rather than important to the story itself. They seem to have gone a direction with her character where you need to infer how their friendship was from fragments, like hearing she's going to celebrate his birthday etc- she's very close to the centre of his social circle, but they chose not to show how.

 

I also think they downplayed her screen time so that the phone call would have a greater impact, their way of shocking everyone with who ended up mattering in terms of Eurus' game. Again, this was effective, but I would have preferred more screen time personally.

 

And as to leaving it undefined, I think they preferred to leave the character  of Sherlock with the potential for something more with Molly, but without ruling that in or out. I think they were saying that their interpretation of the character was that it wasn't so clear cut whether he would, especially in a modern retelling of his story, ever be able to have some kind of attachment to a woman that went beyond friendship. I don't even know if it was just about keeping all the fans happy, but so much about them saying that as lifelong fans of the Sherlock character that was the aspect of him that would always leave them guessing, and they liked to keep their portrayal in line with that. Another aspect of this is that they had Irene in the mix too, so they weren't even narrowing the possibilities of who it would be, they were just saying these possibilities are here and are recognised.

 

 

Regarding the ILY scene, we may be all wrong about its intent. Like her brothers, Eurus seems to be far better at understanding other people's emotions than her own -- so she may well have anticipated Molly's reaction. What if her purpose was NOT to see what happened when Molly said ILY? What if Eurus correctly anticipated that Molly would insist that Sherlock go first, and wanted to see how THAT would affect him?

 

 

It is so hard with Eurus because they expect us to believe she has so little self awareness and then has so much insight at other times- but I do agree that she at least anticipated that through what she was doing the tables would somehow be turned on Sherlock. It wasn't important to her to hurt Molly, but it was important to her to see how Sherlock was going to react under that threat, and there is a part to that scene where it is almost like Eurus is coaching him through the call, she gets a little bit of her 'therapist' persona back.

 

I wonder if part of all her manipulations involved making Sherlock feel vulnerable so she could come in as the supportive 'sister' figure and feel temporarily closer to him?

[Arcadia]

 

Maybe it's not that Molly is important to the plots so much, but that she's an important part of revealing the character of Sherlock? She illuminates parts of him no one else does

I believe somebody (pretty sure it was Sana, but can't seem to find it just now) said something very similar a little while, something like Molly is a mirror for Sherlock. I'll have to think before I agree or disagree, but at least two of you seem to be of that opinion.

 

Regarding the ILY scene, we may be all wrong about its intent. Like her brothers, Eurus seems to be far better at understanding other people's emotions than her own -- so she may well have anticipated Molly's reaction. What if her purpose was NOT to see what happened when Molly said ILY? What if Eurus correctly anticipated that Molly would insist that Sherlock go first, and wanted to see how THAT would affect him?

 

 

I don't know about mirroring, I think that's something a little different. But the audience sees a side of him through her we don't see through the other characters. According to Moftiss, that's why she was introduced into the show in the first place; to illustrate how disinterested he was in female companionship. Then Loo was so good in the role, they kept her around. Wise choice.

 

I don't think Eurus cared much whether Molly ever said ILY or not. She was more concerned, I think, to see how Sherlock would react when the death he was confronted with involved someone he cared about, unlike the first two tests. He remained stoic during those, but he got a little panicky when he thought a friend might die. So it didn't matter much who said what to whom first, I think.

 

Eurus must have observed Sherlock for a while. And well, if Sherlock is good at analysing Eurus is at least as good as him. That's why she had choosen Molly to do the job. Molly must gain some kind of feelings in him. And Molly has the ability to reach his sentimental self. She proofed it in Belgravia for example.

 

Agreed. And I note that Molly is not "just" someone he cares about; otherwise the person in peril could have been Mrs. H, or Lestrade, or even one of the homeless network. No, it's someone who harbors romantic feelings for him, and the test directly addresses those feelings. I find that important, but I'm having trouble explaining why.

 

 

And as to leaving it undefined, I think they preferred to leave the character  of Sherlock with the potential for something more with Molly, but without ruling that in or out. I think they were saying that their interpretation of the character was that it wasn't so clear cut whether he would, especially in a modern retelling of his story, ever be able to have some kind of attachment to a woman that went beyond friendship. I don't even know if it was just about keeping all the fans happy, but so much about them saying that as lifelong fans of the Sherlock character that was the aspect of him that would always leave them guessing, and they liked to keep their portrayal in line with that. Another aspect of this is that they had Irene in the mix too, so they weren't even narrowing the possibilities of who it would be, they were just saying these possibilities are here and are recognized.

 

 

 

Agreed, and I think they even left John in the mix. I'm surprised they didn't find a way to stick Janine in there too. :p

[bedelia1984]

 

 

Agreed, and I think they even left John in the mix. I'm surprised they didn't find a way to stick Janine in there too. :P

 

 

She's still got that cottage in surrey though, right? The man has options.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hopefully she decided to keep the bees.

[SanaB]

@ Bedelia: It's so funny! Other men are flirting and flirting and Sherlock gets all the women just by ignoring them. :D

[SanaB]

@ Arcadia@: I know there are many different opinions out there. My personal is that if Sherlock ever is able to have a romantic relationship than Molly could be the one. But I try to stay objective about that.

 

IMO Eurus had chosen Molly because of a special reason. Not only because she is romantically feeling for him but also because she can reach him emotionally in a special kind of way. He doesn't block her out. Sherlock accepts Molly seeing behind his fassade.

[gerry]

Well, the bit with Molly I thought was to show she was still a presence in Baker street whilst leaving the relationship between them undefined.

But for her to be there at all, they have to be at least friends so I don't think a lack of ILY call resolution was for that purpose.

 

I also think they downplayed her screen time so that the phone call would have a greater impact, their way of shocking everyone with who ended up mattering in terms of Eurus' game. Again, this was effective, but I would have preferred more screen time personally.

Based on the fact that the ILY call was a last minute change and the orginal scene was her in a coffin with Sherlock solving a puzzle, I doubt her not being in the previous two episodes had anything to do with the impact of the ILY call.

 

Another aspect of this is that they had Irene in the mix too, so they weren't even narrowing the possibilities of who it would be, they were just saying these possibilities are here and are recognised.

If this is true, there is something really lame about that to me. It strikes me like a guy who lets his girlfriend believe he will propose one day but never does without any explanation. It strikes me as a cowardly and I don't even ship him with anyone but writing Iike that compromises characterizations of all characters involved.

 

@ Bedelia: It's so funny! Other men are flirting and flirting and Sherlock gets all the women just by ignoring them. :D

This doesn't say much about the women involved then. Have a little self respect! At least Sherlock flirted with Janine to get her attention. He didn't have to do anything at all for Molly and Irene's affections.

[SanaB]

Gerry, I think you misunderstood me. I just wanted to do a joke...

[gerry]

I know Sana but there's truth behind the joke. That is how women are around Sherlock except Donovan.

[bedelia1984]

Hopefully she decided to keep the bees.

 

It would definitely be one way to his heart. In a way I think it is sort of nice that they divided up these pieces of Sherlock's heart between a few different people. I think too often we get sold the one-true-soulmate story in fiction, when people can have more than one love in their life. 

 

 

Well, the bit with Molly I thought was to show she was still a presence in Baker street whilst leaving the relationship between them undefined.

But for her to be there at all, they have to be at least friends so I don't think a lack of ILY call resolution was for that purpose.

 

 

My take is that was their choice of resolution- that they have some sort of friendship the borders of which are undefined because the ILY call resolution is left undefined. They've seen each other since, of course, but it is left ambiguous as to how they have come back to being on good terms. I think what would satisfy people in terms of resolution varies- for some people a look could be enough (if you believe Molly was looking at Sherlock in the montage), for others they would want a discussion.

 

 

I also think they downplayed her screen time so that the phone call would have a greater impact, their way of shocking everyone with who ended up mattering in terms of Eurus' game. Again, this was effective, but I would have preferred more screen time personally.

Based on the fact that the ILY call was a last minute change and the orginal scene was her in a coffin with Sherlock solving a puzzle, I doubt her not being in the previous two episodes had anything to do with the impact of the ILY call.

 

 

I think if they had shown her in a coffin that would have been even more shocking (too shocking IMO), so the same applies. Either way, they were choosing to confront his relationship with Molly and they were doing it at a significant moment and in the last episode. It is just demonstrative of how the writers like to tells stories- like Eurus was hidden in earlier episodes, so where the times that Molly and Sherlock saw each other. I don't know how they could make the significance more clear, than by positioning it in the final half of the final (possibly ever) episode right before he has an emotional breakdown.

 

 

Another aspect of this is that they had Irene in the mix too, so they weren't even narrowing the possibilities of who it would be, they were just saying these possibilities are here and are recognised.

If this is true, there is something really lame about that to me. It strikes me like a guy who lets his girlfriend believe he will propose one day but never does without any explanation. It strikes me as a cowardly and I don't even ship him with anyone but writing Iike that compromises characterizations of all characters involved.

 

 

I can tell we see this so differently, and I actually share some of your frustration that they didn't write this part in a more definite way. But I think it fits very well with Sherlock's characterisation as someone who has not developed emotionally to the same degree as most adults- due to repression and other factors. I could see him as being almost at a teenage stage when it comes to any romantic possibilities- the girl he has a crush on from afar (Irene), the girl next door who could be his friend/ could be more (Molly), the possibility it is not girls he's interested in at all, even. They only leave the character when all of this has been laid bare for the first time, so it makes sense to me we don't see him say, well actually I'm going to give a relationship a try and Irene's the one for me, or whatever, because his understanding of himself has been so limited by what was repressed and some traits that he probably thought were 'him' he's now finding out were a response to traumatic experiences.

 

@ Bedelia: It's so funny! Other men are flirting and flirting and Sherlock gets all the women just by ignoring them.  :D

This doesn't say much about the women involved then. Have a little self respect! At least Sherlock flirted with Janine to get her attention. He didn't have to do anything at all for Molly and Irene's affections.

 

 

 

I can't agree, he has shamelessly flirted with Molly, not to mention telling her she mattered to him, among other things and he's gone out of his way to be the hero for Irene.

[SanaB]

Maybe they decided to change the scene because they didn't really know what to do with Molly beside Sherlock, Microft and John in the prison afterwards. She would have played a side role in the following events.