Mycroft Holmes

[J.P.]

Someone said (in some movie I suppose) that being in power is to be alone.

I can imagine that even the powerful people who surrounded Mycroft didn't have... how shall I call it... his intellectual range.

 

Talking about the deduction game: are you sure that Sherlock's guess was better than Mycroft's? Maybe the Train-Guy was indeed perfectly happy in his little world, and Sherlock's assumption about the isolation and lonelyness was merely a projection, because S struggled with this problem himself.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

 

Talking about the deduction game: are you sure that Sherlock's guess was better than Mycroft's? Maybe the Train-Guy was indeed perfectly happy in his little world, and Sherlock's assumption about the isolation and lonelyness was merely a projection, because S struggled with this problem himself.

 

Ah, nice. This's a good dose of feels to start me off this morning.

 

But, yeah, the fandom as a whole (and I mean the Sherlockians on Pinterest, Tumblr, Instagram, etc) agrees that Sherlock is a sad and lonely person who tries to impress people using his deduction powers and cleverness. That's why he snaps when he's wrong, when he doesn't have all the answers because he's built this sort of reputation for knowing everything. But he doesn't know everything, and that's why the times when he's wrong are the worst because it's like he let everybody down. You see what happened in TRF when Sherlock was wrong about the whole key code thing? You see what happened in HLV when he was wrong about Appledore? Even when he solves the problem at the end, he's still letting people down, because maybe if he figured out the right answer in the first place then maybe he wouldn't have had to kill himself or kill Magnussen.

 

When Sherlock says he doesn't need friends, I personally think he's really saying that nobody needs him, therefore he needs nobody. Because that's how he grew up -- the odd one out, the perennial black sheep, the freak. Nobody ever told him that he needs him, and by the time Mummy or Daddy or any counselors tried to reverse this thinking, it'd already sunk in. I don't need people; people don't need me.

 

You can't kill an idea, can you? Not once it's made its home... *taps your forehead* there.

[Arcadia]

But, yeah, the fandom as a whole (and I mean the Sherlockians on Pinterest, Tumblr, Instagram, etc) agrees that Sherlock is a sad and lonely person who tries to impress people using his deduction powers and cleverness. That's why he snaps when he's wrong, when he doesn't have all the answers because he's built this sort of reputation for knowing everything. But he doesn't know everything, and that's why the times when he's wrong are the worst because it's like he let everybody down. You see what happened in TRF when Sherlock was wrong about the whole key code thing? You see what happened in HLV when he was wrong about Appledore? Even when he solves the problem at the end, he's still letting people down, because maybe if he figured out the right answer in the first place then maybe he wouldn't have had to kill himself or kill Magnussen.

 

When Sherlock says he doesn't need friends, I personally think he's really saying that nobody needs him, therefore he needs nobody. Because that's how he grew up -- the odd one out, the perennial black sheep, the freak. Nobody ever told him that he needs him, and by the time Mummy or Daddy or any counselors tried to reverse this thinking, it'd already sunk in. I don't need people; people don't need me.

 

You can't kill an idea, can you? Not once it's made its home... *taps your forehead* there.

Nice one, Bendy. I'd say that's a pretty sound analysis.

 

 

Talking about the deduction game: are you sure that Sherlock's guess was better than Mycroft's? Maybe the Train-Guy was indeed perfectly happy in his little world, and Sherlock's assumption about the isolation and lonelyness was merely a projection, because S struggled with this problem himself.

Hm, I don't know. I wasn't thinking of that scene when I said what I did, I was thinking more of just Sherlock's approach overall ... he often appears to make intuitive leaps. Whereas Mycroft comes across to me as someone who methodically collects and organizes his facts. Also he may be more observant, as he's not as caught up in himself as Sherlock is. I'm not sure that makes Mycroft smarter though; he just approaches problems a different way?

 

Anyway, I think the hat deduction scene was about something else, as they both came to the same conclusion in the end; i.e., the train guy wasn't necessarily isolated. I see that scene as Sherlock leading Mycroft down a path until he sees what Sherlock wants him to see; that just because they're both different, it doesn't mean they have to separate themselves from the rest of the world.

[HeroinOrHeroine]

I just wasted a half hour of work time reading this discussion. Ah well, it was worth it. 

 

I've never thought of Mycroft as being devoid of feelings or emotions. To me, he seems incredibly dedicated to keeping Sherlock alive and clearly cares deeply for him. He's obnoxious for sure, but that seems to be a trait shared by the brothers. Neither of them are particularly good at expressing their emotions, but I relate more to Mycroft. Plus I love him. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think the hat deduction scene was about something else, as they both came to the same conclusion in the end; i.e., the train guy wasn't necessarily isolated. I see that scene as Sherlock leading Mycroft down a path until he sees what Sherlock wants him to see; that just because they're both different, it doesn't mean they have to separate themselves from the rest of the world.

That's my take exactly -- Sherlock used a combination of reverse psychology and the Socratic Method on Mycroft -- who amazingly didn't see it coming.  Score one for Sherlock!  ;)

 

[sittything]

I just wasted a half hour of work time reading this discussion. Ah well, it was worth it. 

 

But was it really a waste?  ;)

[Shadow Dweller]

 

 

Talking about the deduction game: are you sure that Sherlock's guess was better than Mycroft's? Maybe the Train-Guy was indeed perfectly happy in his little world, and Sherlock's assumption about the isolation and lonelyness was merely a projection, because S struggled with this problem himself.

 

You can't kill an idea, can you? Not once it's made its home... *taps your forehead* there.

 

 

Unkillable but it is possible to twist and alter it, something that I believe Mycroft is capable of should he apply himself to it. Unless Sherlock is his curly-top blind spot :lol:

[HeroinOrHeroine]

 

I just wasted a half hour of work time reading this discussion. Ah well, it was worth it.

But was it really a waste? ;)

Only in that my amount of paperwork didn't get any smaller in the meantime. I need a subordinate to push my papers so I can focus on more important things... Like reading about Mycroft.

[sfmpco]

I need someone to come and finish the interior painting so that I can keep writing and up to snuff with the forum!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

If I lived closer.  I love painting.  It is so much fun.

[Carol the Dabbler]

It's fun till you have an entire home interior to paint (primer plus two coats of paint) -- not just all the rooms, but also the stairwell (not fun!) and inside all the closets (cramped!), and don't forget the ceilings!      We lived through it, though.

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I've painted a closet before. That was fun. Haven't done stairwells or vaulted ceilings. But came close with my bedroom wall at my parents'. They live in a dome house and 1 wall was taller than a traditional story.

[joanneta1]

I know Mycroft gave that "living in a world of goldfish" line, but he also works with a highly respected group of peers with whom he consults, and I doubt he would ever be so condescending, even mentally, to call or think of them as goldfish..  Then again, Mycroft doesn't strike me as narcissistic like Sherlock does.  No, not at all.  Mycroft is also far more socially adept and filters what he has to say, never being politically incorrect.  He does tell Mrs. Hudson to shut up, but he's called out for it and immediately apologizes, but then Sherlock immediately says to her, "Although do in fact shut up."

 

One could sit down and have a nice meal with Mycroft.  Sherlock wouldn't eat (unless between cases) and then would probably be bouncing off the walls.  Mycroft's brain always seems perfectly focused and calm.  Sherlock's brain can focus but seems to have a harder time streamlining information because he's just a little ADHD.

Talking about the whole psychopathology part of Sherlock, both in this series and in the books, his whole demeanour fits -manic-depressive, which would account for the cocaine in The Sign of Four, as it was prescribed for depression at the time and ACD had other medical friends he could consult. It would also explain his outbursts of driven energy alternating with bouts of complete lethargy, lack of interest in food in some cases, eating like a normal human being in other instances, his love of anything extraordinary and his detestation of anything "normal", so Mycroft has to worry about him constantly in the series. Any psychiatrists on this forum to help straighten this issue out, because he definitely does not fit the clinical description for Asperger's or of that exotic term "sociopath", which he ascribes to himself.

[J.P.]

manic-depressive: AFAIK the periods of high and low mood do not depend on circumstances. The behaviour is CAUSED by the mood, not the other way around. In the high period people tend to lose the conection to reality and do many STUPID things.

 

But we are hijacking the tread, don't we?

[T.o.b.y]

Talking about the whole psychopathology part of Sherlock, both in this series and in the books, his whole demeanour fits -manic-depressive, which would account for the cocaine in The Sign of Four, as it was prescribed for depression at the time and ACD had other medical friends he could consult. It would also explain his outbursts of driven energy alternating with bouts of complete lethargy, lack of interest in food in some cases, eating like a normal human being in other instances, his love of anything extraordinary and his detestation of anything "normal", so Mycroft has to worry about him constantly in the series. Any psychiatrists on this forum to help straighten this issue out, because he definitely does not fit the clinical description for Asperger's or of that exotic term "sociopath", which he ascribes to himself.

 

I don't think Sherlock Holmes really fits any real psychiatric diagnosis... He has certain characteristics of bipolar disorder and Autism and antisocial personality disorder and god knows what else, but I don't think he really is any of those things. He's just Sherlock Holmes, a very unique, eccentric and completely fictional and impossible person.

 

If you are really interested and have a bit of time on your hands, go dig out the DSM or ICD-10 criteria for the above mentioned diagnoses, and see how many traditional Holmes and modern Sherlock fulfill. I think you will find that he's hard to pigeonhole. And that is totally okay, if you ask me. He doesn't need to be anything but himself.

 

I am not bothered by the "sociopath" stuff. That word is meaningless in real life, and inside the Sherlock universe, I am willing to accept it for what Sherlock aspires to be.

 

I wonder what you could call Mycroft, psychologically speaking. My problem with him is that he doesn't seem real to me. I find him too cartoonish to believe in.

 

 

[joanneta1]

Thanks, will definitely try to locate the criteria. Mycroft is cartoonish because they have based him on the omniscient loner of the stories who is so set on his ways that even Sherlock cannot believe in his visit at the beginning of The Bruce-Partington Plans, and another famous upper civil servant, Sir Humphrey Appleby, of Yes, Minister/Yes, Prime Minister fame. Of course, they say that he is based on the Mycroft of the Billy Wilder film, so then you need to factor in M from James Bond or Control from LeCarre. Being a composite, he cannot be as realistic as his more high-profile younger brother. And as an upper civil servant he must maintain a low profile to blend in both at work and at his club. Sherlock calls him an obsessive-compulsive, but then, he is not the best authority on the matter.

[sittything]

joanneta, here's the diagnostic criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder (the actual diagnosis rather than sociopathy which is not a recognized diagnosis).  We had a lively discussion if Mycroft was in fact the sociopath.  

 

http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/2706-mycroft/page-2?hl=sociopath

 

[sittything]

An interesting fan video of Sherlock and Mycroft I found the other night.  I debated sharing it, because I don't entirely think it fits them perfectly, but there is a shocking lack of videos about just these two and there is something about it that I liked.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3po1eeJDcEE

[Arcadia]

I hope the lyrics weren't important because I couldn't understand a word (ewghgh, I really AM getting old....) Like the visuals, though!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Interesting video.  And I got the most interesting banner ad with it that totally explains my username. (will post the screen shot I took in a different more corresponding thread. [probably the hijacked thread])

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

An interesting fan video of Sherlock and Mycroft I found the other night.  I debated sharing it, because I don't entirely think it fits them perfectly, but there is a shocking lack of videos about just these two and there is something about it that I liked.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3po1eeJDcEE

I hope the lyrics weren't important because I couldn't understand a word (ewghgh, I really AM getting old....) Like the visuals, though!

 

Y'know, we should totally bring back the Music Associations thread! :D

[Arcadia]

 

 

Y'know, we should totally bring back the Music Associations thread! :D

 

Go thou, and resurrect it!

[sfmpco]

[J.P.]

Hmm... found something that made me speechless:

 

This is the moment when Sherlock's friends are trying to find him after he's disappeared from the hospital, and Lestrade gets an "audience" in Mycroft's office. Look at this f****** gesture! 

 

Your little brother is missing, probably dying, and you treat his concerned friend like a... disturbance? 

 

MYCROFT!!!  

 

 

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Look! Looooook! It happened! It happened! Mycroft and Lestrade finally met! And they were in the same room too!!

 

*sound of Mystrade shippers cheering in the distance*