Mycroft Holmes

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, goody -- we're gonna do some dissing after all! :D

[Pseudonym]

You think Mycroft was ever a field agent? His undercover work to free Sherlock in Serbia makes me think yes, his horror at the idea of shooting someone makes me think no. Personally I always thought he would blow someone's head off without a problem - def don't believe that scene. 

[Arcadia]

Nah. I think he's a born bureaucrat. I think that's one of the points they're trying to make about Sherlock, actually ... if there's dirty work to be done, he'll take it on himself, not farm it out to others like Mycroft does.

[J.P.]

You remember how Mycroft was whinning about going undercover? He, as his canon counterpart, hates legwork.

There is a nice word for such people in German, it can be literally translated as desk-committer or desk-perpetrator, someone who gives the orders and never gets his hands dirty. But my cynical self thinks we need people like this, unfortunately.

[Pseudonym]

I know he hates legwork but I still thought he must have had to do some when he was working his way up the ranks. Apparently he just went the political desk jockey route instead, is fine with ordering deaths but not with actually doing it. 

 

I have to say Mark is a great actor, he can definitely do the cold, hard eyes thing brilliantly. 

[Arcadia]

You remember how Mycroft was whinning about going undercover? He, as his canon counterpart, hates legwork.

There is a nice word for such people in German, it can be literally translated as desk-committer or desk-perpetrator, someone who gives the orders and never gets his hands dirty. But my cynical self thinks we need people like this, unfortunately.

I don't think that's cynicism, it's just pragmatic.

[Surelock]

Maybe it's just because I'm introverted or lazy but if I were a genius I would prefer to be more like Mycroft than Sherlock.

 

Frankly I think that most geniuses are more like Mycroft than Sherlock as in they hate legwork and don't go out much.

[Pseudonym]

Letting other people take the risks and get beaten up definitely seems the more intelligent approach.

[Arcadia]

In one of the other threads we were talking about "mirroring" ... how some characters and events reflect others. I just now got to thinking about Mycroft and Sherlock, and how they mirror each other in many ways; but they have different outcomes. Throughout the seasons we see Sherlock change and grow, but can the same be said for Mycroft?
 
I caught the end of TFP on TV again last night, and it got me to thinking about that "five minutes alone with Moriarty" bit, and what it says about Mycroft, which is that he's a bit of a creepy bastard. (Not that we didn't know that already. :P) Not only did he cause his parents to think Eurus burned to death; he locked the girl away for life without access to mental health services or human contact, and he was using her ... her intellect was simply another resource to help him in his work. And then there's the colossal mistake of allowing her to contact Moriarty; simply so he can use her some more.
 
I think we're seeing in S4 how much of Mycroft's behavior is due to the same thing as Sherlock's ... arrogance. They're both so smug in their self-assured superiority that they think they're always in control of the situation, and in so doing, they make mistakes that end up ruining people's lives. Sherlock's arrogance gets Mary killed; Mycroft's gets several people killed at Sherrinford, and those are only the ones we know about.
 
But whereas Sherlock realizes what his mistake was, and takes it to heart, and tries to change, does Mycroft? At the end, we see him defending his decisions regarding Eurus' to his parents, seemingly unapologetic. He regards Eurus as "unreachable", and that's that, as far as he's concerned.
 
It's been pointed out before that both Eurus and Mycroft represent what Sherlock could have become if he hadn't learned to "care". Mycroft ends up being the smaller man at the end, because even though he's demonstrated that he's capable of love, at least for his little brother, he can't quite overcome his need to be regarded as the smartest one in the room.

 

I'm left feeling a bit sorry for him, and simultaneously wanting to see Mummy whump him a good one on the side of the head.

[Boton]

You remember how Mycroft was whinning about going undercover? He, as his canon counterpart, hates legwork.

There is a nice word for such people in German, it can be literally translated as desk-committer or desk-perpetrator, someone who gives the orders and never gets his hands dirty. But my cynical self thinks we need people like this, unfortunately.

 

I need to know what that word is, so I can slip it into conversation.   ;)

[bedelia1984]

I had been echoing some of the points about Mycroft and mistakes he made that had consequences in TFP over in our chat on Sherlock's thread.

I wanted to add that I felt it was a but unfair of me not to mention Uncle Rudy's culpability.

I wonder does anybody know, is Rudy still alive (I had assumed not)?It seems like Rudy supported Mycroft in hiding Eurus away, and perhaps encouraged the attitude that she would be best hidden and isolated.

Does it seem like Uncle Rudy was influencing Mycroft to become the keeper of family secrets, and in a way his own successor?

It seems a bit like Rudy had a more parental role with Mycroft than the Holmes parents. Much as Mycroft saw himself as responsible for Sherlock. Again, I can't help but wonder why the parents were so little involved with their own children. Maybe they were distracted by the grief of losing Eurus?

[Boton]

I had been echoing some of the points about Mycroft and mistakes he made that had consequences in TFP over in our chat on Sherlock's thread.

 

I wanted to add that I felt it was a but unfair of me not to mention Uncle Rudy's culpability.

 

I wonder does anybody know, is Rudy still alive (I had assumed not)?

 

It seems like Rudy supported Mycroft in hiding Eurus away, and perhaps encouraged the attitude that she would be best hidden and isolated.

 

Does it seem like Uncle Rudy was influencing Mycroft to become the keeper of family secrets, and in a way his own successor?

 

It seems a bit like Rudy had a more parental role with Mycroft than the Holmes parents. Much as Mycroft saw himself as responsible for Sherlock. Again, I can't help but wonder why the parents were so little involved with their own children. Maybe they were distracted by the grief of losing Eurus?

 

Based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever, I sort of decided that Uncle Rudy was the original Holmes family ultra-powerful g-man, and he was the one behind putting Eurus away in the beginning.  It just seems like the Victor incident probably happened when Sherlock was 5 or 6, and that would make Mycroft 12.  Even if it took a couple of years for Eurus to burn the house down, Mycroft would still be far too young to take any kind of active role in her incarceration.  

 

Even if you want to bump things up farther in the timeline, let's say Mycroft got his government job right out of uni.  By the time Eurus is 12, Mycroft is only 25.  That gives the Holmes parents time to try various kinds of therapy and intervention with Eurus as they lost control over her, but Mycroft still would not be so far up the chain of government influence that he could sentence his sister to Sherrinford and erase public record of her.  And I think this is really far too late, because it is one thing for Sherlock to have repressed memory of his sister near the time he traumatically lost his best friend; it just doesn't hold up for me that he would have repressed her at a separate time as a young teen.  So I'm going with the idea that everything happens relatively quickly around the time Sherlock is 5 or 6 and Eurus is 4 or 5, and Rudy was the one pulling the strings for a long time.

 

However, I can see Mycroft getting into his 30s and getting a certain amount of power in the government, and he's taken over supervision of Eurus' incarceration from Rudy.  Then, there's room for several conversations with Lady Smallwood about why he doesn't try to get his sister more psychiatric help with the idea of one day mainstreaming her in some way.  I can see Mycroft refusing, because he has always harbored some trauma himself from seeing what his family went through and especially what Sherlock experienced.  No wonder he keeps continual tabs on Sherlock. Sentiment....

[Redbeard]

I am forgetting...is Mycroft even in the ending montage?  I think maybe once with the parents, that is where the mom takes his hand.  But was he shown other than that?  It would have been nice to see him in Baker Street, even if he had a sneer on his face lol.  

[bedelia1984]

Maybe the baby has scared him away from Baker Street for good?

[Surelock]

I had been echoing some of the points about Mycroft and mistakes he made that had consequences in TFP over in our chat on Sherlock's thread.

 

I wanted to add that I felt it was a but unfair of me not to mention Uncle Rudy's culpability.

 

I wonder does anybody know, is Rudy still alive (I had assumed not)?It seems like Rudy supported Mycroft in hiding Eurus away, and perhaps encouraged the attitude that she would be best hidden and isolated.

 

Does it seem like Uncle Rudy was influencing Mycroft to become the keeper of family secrets, and in a way his own successor?

 

It seems a bit like Rudy had a more parental role with Mycroft than the Holmes parents. Much as Mycroft saw himself as responsible for Sherlock. Again, I can't help but wonder why the parents were so little involved with their own children. Maybe they were distracted by the grief of losing Eurus?

 

I think it was more like Uncle Rudy tried to hide away Euros secretly but Mycroft found out because he was the smartest in his family after Euros. Thus Uncle Rudy had to allow Mycroft join him in his plan.

 

TBH I always saw Mycroft as a smart aleck when he was a kid so it would make sense to me if he found out about Uncle Rudy secretly hiding Euros away. Then he grew out of it as an adult. I think Sherlock's smart aleck behaviour may have been inherited from Mycroft except it took longer for Sherlock to get out of it.

 

You said Moriarty mentioned the East Wind to Sherlock. When did he do this?

 

Also I think we're not given enough information to render a value judgement on Mycroft's actions. You could argue it was foolish for him to let Euros speak to Moriarty for 5 minutes but it was still only 5 minutes. Remember Mycroft wasn't just letting her talk to Moriarty for nothing. Euros assisted him in national security matters such as when she predicted a terrorist attack by using twitter. However Euros required rewards for her services.

 

We don't know what Euros did for Mycroft in return for letting her talk to Moriarty. It may have been something that led to saving millions of lives. It may have been worth it. 

 

Also I have to say that I don't find Mycroft's belief that he won't be manipulated by Euros to be arrogance. I think he was right.

 

You see Euros didn't take over Sherrinford because Mycroft was arrogant. Euros took over Sherrinford because Mycroft was too humble. Mycroft chose to trust the Governor. However that was his big mistake. Once the Governor saw that Mycroft was letting Euros see people like Moriarty he got entitled and thought he could also let other people see her. That's what you see in the episode. When Mycroft asks the Governor why he let people see Euros, the Governor responds by saying that Mycroft let Moriarty see her.

 

However when Mycroft was in charge of Sherrinford everything was fine. Euros didn't mind control anyone or break out or anything. That shows that Mycroft was right to trust only himself. Mycroft's only mistake was trusting other people with Euros so basically Mycroft should never have left his post in Sherrinford. He should have always remained as the Governor of Sherrinford and not allow anyone else to have the position.

 

TBH I think this is all a flaw in the writing. I think Moffatiss were trying to show that Mycroft was wrong for the way he treated Euros but I think they went about the wrong way doing it. Once you examine the sequence of events it looks like Mycroft was right for treating Euros the way he treated her. However I'm pretty sure that wasn't Moffatiss' intention.

[Pseudonym]

Does it say he was ever was the Governor?

[Surelock]

Does it say he was ever was the Governor?

 

Mycorft says that the Governor's office used to be his own office so I'm guessing Mycroft was the Governor of Sherrinford before he joined MI6.

[Pseudonym]

Doesn't he actually say something along the lines of:

 

MH: "I'll be in my office."

Gov: "Your office?"

MH: "Yes, think back, it used to be yours."

 

Meaning he's effectively demoted/sacked the Governor. 

 

I'm sure someone will have the energy to look up the actual lines somewhere. 

 

[Surelock]

Doesn't he actually say something along the lines of:

 

MH: "I'll be in my office."

Gov: "Your office?"

MH: "Yes, think back, it used to be yours."

 

Meaning he's effectively demoted/sacked the Governor. 

 

I'm sure someone will have the energy to look up the actual lines somewhere. 

 

Oh yeah that's correct. 

 

In that case it becomes ambiguous if Mycroft was ever the Governor. But even if he wasn't, I think he should have been since only he handled Euros correctly.

[Pseudonym]

Yes he probably shouldn't have trusted them to handle her. I wonder about the other patients/prisoners there, what they had done that made them so dangerous.

[Redbeard]

Yes he probably shouldn't have trusted them to handle her. I wonder about the other patients/prisoners there, what they had done that made them so dangerous.

 

Well, we know three of them are cannibals lol.  

[bedelia1984]

 

....You said Moriarty mentioned the East Wind to Sherlock. When did he do this?

 

Also I think we're not given enough information to render a value judgement on Mycroft's actions. You could argue it was foolish for him to let Euros speak to Moriarty for 5 minutes but it was still only 5 minutes. Remember Mycroft wasn't just letting her talk to Moriarty for nothing. Euros assisted him in national security matters such as when she predicted a terrorist attack by using twitter. However Euros required rewards for her services.

 

We don't know what Euros did for Mycroft in return for letting her talk to Moriarty. It may have been something that led to saving millions of lives. It may have been worth it. 

 

Also I have to say that I don't find Mycroft's belief that he won't be manipulated by Euros to be arrogance. I think he was right.

 

You see Euros didn't take over Sherrinford because Mycroft was arrogant. Euros took over Sherrinford because Mycroft was too humble. Mycroft chose to trust the Governor. However that was his big mistake. Once the Governor saw that Mycroft was letting Euros see people like Moriarty he got entitled and thought he could also let other people see her. That's what you see in the episode. When Mycroft asks the Governor why he let people see Euros, the Governor responds by saying that Mycroft let Moriarty see her.

 

However when Mycroft was in charge of Sherrinford everything was fine. Euros didn't mind control anyone or break out or anything. That shows that Mycroft was right to trust only himself. Mycroft's only mistake was trusting other people with Euros so basically Mycroft should never have left his post in Sherrinford. He should have always remained as the Governor of Sherrinford and not allow anyone else to have the position.

 

TBH I think this is all a flaw in the writing. I think Moffatiss were trying to show that Mycroft was wrong for the way he treated Euros but I think they went about the wrong way doing it. Once you examine the sequence of events it looks like Mycroft was right for treating Euros the way he treated her. However I'm pretty sure that wasn't Moffatiss' intention.

 

 

I've been trying to find a mention of the East wind by Moriarty and I can't, sorry, so I must have imagined/ dreamed it? 

 

It is true that Mycroft got something out of his exchange with Eurus, but he jeopardised his family in the process. I suppose it comes down to whether you feel he had the right to conceal Eurus and then reveal her to Moriarty when he needed leverage with her. For me, his arrogance is in assuming that he has this right, when really  in my view he had no business deciding what was 'best' for his parents, or for Eurus for that matter. Mycroft is so gifted in so many ways, but I don't consider her a good judge of emotional context or an expert on mental health.

 

I do think the Governor was very foolish, but Mycroft was foolish too. When he (Mycroft) went against his own directive, he made it less compelling. And added to this, what kind of checks was he doing at Sherrinford? How did it happen that psychologists were committing suicide etc and it never came to his attention?

 

At first I thought Mrs. Holmes was wrong to blame Mycroft for keeping Eurus a secret, when she had also kept the secret of her existence from Eurus. But someone here mentioned that there is a psychological technique wherein you do not seek to reveal the source of hidden traumas for fear of causing further damage. So, it seems like the parents may have had good reason to hide the truth from Sherlock. But Mycroft's lie was different, because it wasn't something the parents couldn't psychologically withstand- and there was an added cruelty in the outcome of his actions- it took the whole family away from Eurus for good. It's not that I don't think Eurus deserved to lose her family- that is really a matter for the family themselves to decide. But when he did that to her, her left her with less to lose, which also made her more dangerous- again, unwise.

 

I do want to believe he only had good intentions- but the show also points to Eurus bullying him as a child, telling him he looked funny. The fact is that as an adult the tables were turned and for a short time Mycroft had absolute control over Eurus- so it is possible he wanted to punish her too, for what she had done to the family. Maybe this is a bit reinforced by what Mycroft says to Lady Smallwood about how he isn't compassionate towards his siblings and points toward what happened to the 'other one'- implying he himself doesn't consider his treatment of Eurus to be kind?

[Redbeard]

Bedelia, regarding Eurus telling Mycroft he looks funny, I don't think that was supposed to have been her bullying him when they were children.  She actually says "You look funny all grown up", which is kind of a meta-reference to adult-Mycroft being there in this sequence.   That's how I took it anyway.  

[Surelock]

 

I've been trying to find a mention of the East wind by Moriarty and I can't, sorry, so I must have imagined/ dreamed it? 

 

It is true that Mycroft got something out of his exchange with Eurus, but he jeopardised his family in the process. I suppose it comes down to whether you feel he had the right to conceal Eurus and then reveal her to Moriarty when he needed leverage with her. For me, his arrogance is in assuming that he has this right, when really  in my view he had no business deciding what was 'best' for his parents, or for Eurus for that matter. Mycroft is so gifted in so many ways, but I don't consider her a good judge of emotional context or an expert on mental health.

 

I do think the Governor was very foolish, but Mycroft was foolish too. When he (Mycroft) went against his own directive, he made it less compelling. And added to this, what kind of checks was he doing at Sherrinford? How did it happen that psychologists were committing suicide etc and it never came to his attention?

 

At first I thought Mrs. Holmes was wrong to blame Mycroft for keeping Eurus a secret, when she had also kept the secret of her existence from Eurus. But someone here mentioned that there is a psychological technique wherein you do not seek to reveal the source of hidden traumas for fear of causing further damage. So, it seems like the parents may have had good reason to hide the truth from Sherlock. But Mycroft's lie was different, because it wasn't something the parents couldn't psychologically withstand- and there was an added cruelty in the outcome of his actions- it took the whole family away from Eurus for good. It's not that I don't think Eurus deserved to lose her family- that is really a matter for the family themselves to decide. But when he did that to her, her left her with less to lose, which also made her more dangerous- again, unwise.

 

I do want to believe he only had good intentions- but the show also points to Eurus bullying him as a child, telling him he looked funny. The fact is that as an adult the tables were turned and for a short time Mycroft had absolute control over Eurus- so it is possible he wanted to punish her too, for what she had done to the family. Maybe this is a bit reinforced by what Mycroft says to Lady Smallwood about how he isn't compassionate towards his siblings and points toward what happened to the 'other one'- implying he himself doesn't consider his treatment of Eurus to be kind?

 

 

I wouldn't say Mycroft went against his own directive. He was the one who was best equipped to deal with Euros as h knew her ever since he was a child. He could decide what to do with her and nobody in Sherrinford could challenge him on that matter because nobody else had the experience he had.

 

Also what do you mean by checks and balances in Sherrinford? The security in Sherrinford was fine. The only problem was the Governor who got cocky and thought he could tame Euros. The reason why Mycroft never found out about the psychologists committing suicide was because the Governor hid those incidents from him.

 

The thing about Mycroft's lie to his parents is that Mycroft didn't know if his parents could psychologically withstand what Euros had become or not.

 

All Mycroft knew is that Euros' cruelty had caused Sherlock to rewrite his memories. Mycroft was probably afraid that his parents may also end up rewriting their memories. Finding out your daughter is a monster is a traumatising event for any parent. It would make sense for Mycroft to not want to risk damaging his parents' mind.

 

Now it's true that Mr. and Mrs. Holmes are fine with Euros at the end of The Final Problem but remember Euros at the end of The Final Problem is much different from the Euros at the start of The Final Problem. At the start of the episode, Euros was a psychopath that didn't mind brainwashing other people into killing themselves and their loved ones. If Mr. and Mrs. Holmes knew this, it might cause them great pain especially at their age. My point here is that we never really find out how Mr. and Mrs. Holmes would have reacted to the knowledge of their daughter being a mass murdering psychopath. It makes sense for Mycroft to hide such details from them.

 

Also even if Euros bullied Mycroft when he was a kid, I don't think Mycroft would bear a grudge against her till adulthood. I mean Mycroft isn't Sherlock. He's more level headed.

 

I took Mycroft's comments to Lady Smallwood to imply that he doesn't allow brotherly compassion to prevent him from taking necessary actions.

 

I have to ask you one question: Do you agree with Mrs. Holmes when she says Sherlock has always been the adult one? I strongly disagree with her on that. I always thought Mycroft was more mature and adult like than Sherlock. 

[bedelia1984]

 

 

I wouldn't say Mycroft went against his own directive. He was the one who was best equipped to deal with Euros as he knew her ever since he was a child. He could decide what to do with her and nobody in Sherrinford could challenge him on that matter because nobody else had the experience he had.

 

Or, as a family member he was far too invested to be objective? Imagine what would happen if family members started making the decisions on the fate of their criminal relatives in general. Mycroft's only personal experience of Eurus ended when he was 12, too, after that he only knew her when she was incarcerated, through occassional visits, so hospital or prison staff etc would have known her better than him in a day-to-day sense. Do we know at what stage she began solitary confinement? 

 

Also what do you mean by checks and balances in Sherrinford? The security in Sherrinford was fine. The only problem was the Governor who got cocky and thought he could tame Euros. The reason why Mycroft never found out about the psychologists committing suicide was because the Governor hid those incidents from him.

 

 

 

How could the security be fine in inmates are behind non-existent glass, and leaving the facility whenever they please? People like the Governor get cocky all the time.

 

In terms of the Governor- he possibly got cocky, but he also was likely manipulated by Eurus. It sometimes happens that a psychopath can be quite charismatic and persuasive. Eurus also had a higher intelligence than both Mycroft and the Governor. So, in my view, Mycroft should be expecting her, as a notable genius, to try every trick she can to get out, and have been arranging independent security checks from staff with a quick turnover, so Eurus had no time to build relationships and manipulate. I think the Governor is the type who was seduced by the thought that he could reach Eurus and succeed where so many failed. But Mycroft too is the type who finds working with criminals a seductive thought- he tries it with both Eurus and Jim Moriarty.

 

 

Now it's true that Mr. and Mrs. Holmes are fine with Euros at the end of The Final Problem but remember Euros at the end of The Final Problem is much different from the Euros at the start of The Final Problem. At the start of the episode, Euros was a psychopath that didn't mind brainwashing other people into killing themselves and their loved ones. If Mr. and Mrs. Holmes knew this, it might cause them great pain especially at their age. My point here is that we never really find out how Mr. and Mrs. Holmes would have reacted to the knowledge of their daughter being a mass murdering psychopath. It makes sense for Mycroft to hide such details from them.

 

 

Do you really believe that Eurus has changed? I don't feel assured of that at all. And I strongly believe that at the end, they know who their daughter was. If you look at the fact that at 5 she was capable of possibly murdering another child- and they knew it to be at the very least possibly, likely in fact- it is not so surprising the way Eurus truned out. It seems to me that both Sherlock, Mycroft and the parents at the end are risking that through getting close to Eurus again they will be even more hurt by her next criminal act. She does seem to not want to physically hurt her family, but emotionally she has hurt them all, Sherlock most deeply.

 

Also even if Euros bullied Mycroft when he was a kid, I don't think Mycroft would bear a grudge against her till adulthood. I mean Mycroft isn't Sherlock. He's more level headed.

 

I took Mycroft's comments to Lady Smallwood to imply that he doesn't allow brotherly compassion to prevent him from taking necessary actions.

 

I have to ask you one question: Do you agree with Mrs. Holmes when she says Sherlock has always been the adult one? I strongly disagree with her on that. I always thought Mycroft was more mature and adult like than Sherlock. 

 

 

 

 

Before TFP, I would definitely have thought Mycroft was smarter, more level-headed and more 'adult'. Through his mistakes in TFP, I had a few moments where I thought, Mycroft is not as smart as I thought he was, or as he thinks he is. But I still find him more adult then Sherlock.

 

I think you and I probably can agree to disagree on his level of responsibility for what went wrong in TFP. In the end that isn't hugely important, compared to the fact that we see Mycroft as very human, because the risks he does take in keeping Eurus secret are a tremendous burden to him, and he does it with the intention of keeping his family safe- it shows a very strong love for Sherlock and his family, which is quite touching.

 

His mother's words surprised me greatly. Does she not know about Sherlock's drug problem, or is she in denial?

 

I think one thing TFP shows clearly is that Mycroft, in addition to having responsibility over Sherlock's drug use and his rehabiitiation, has also ended up taking responsibility for Eurus. In a way, he reminds me of one of those children, a bit older than the rest of the family, who when the parents die takes on a parental role over his siblings at the expense of their own personal life. But, the Holmes parents are still alive. So have they abdicated responsibility, have they missed all of Sherlock's issues, or do they just understand very little, as Sherlock himself suggests?

 

I'm curious how Sherlock and Mycroft feel about their father actually- we hear them talk about upsetting Mummy, and having grievances against her, but the father seems a complete non-entity in their lives. I don't buy that it is only about intelligence, as Sherlock is very close to John despite their difference in intelligence, (probably with Victor it was likewise) so why not his Dad?