Mycroft Holmes

[Shadow Dweller]

Never try to hold on the rules on situation like that, what is important is to play with the perception of those who hold the axe. An outright refusal almost certainly would lead to drastic escalation, so it makes sense to appear to play the helpless, I don't have other choice besides obeying for awhile. It is risk management. Look at what almost happened when Sherlock at first refused to play with Jeff the cabbie's game, almost got himself shot for his trouble. Idealism is all good on paper but it often a poor fit in reality. It is either you try to probe the other party for possible exploitable weakness or indirectly become responsible for the escalation of conflict. An offer given is a good sign because it means there's chance for negotiation.

[gerry]

Mycroft tried to tell both John and Sherlock that from the beginning but they both thought the girl on the plane was real. In fact they all thought the girl was real. I never did from the very beginning which is why it was the weakest part of the episode for me.

[Shadow Dweller]

*grins* On that I wish Mycroft did not open his cards too early too. He appeared way too willing to sacrifice the little girl whether she's real or not. He can pretend to buy the ruse and make Eurus thinks that it is something to play him with and therefore unconsciously opening several different venues. Mycroft of Mycroft, where is the mind that brought you to be one of The Four (Antartica, Langdale, Porlock and Love). :lol: Eurus was playing a double-pronged game with the three of them, until he knows to certain degree the feel of the game he should not act hasty and dismissed the plane that might crash to London (do they really think that such plane won't be spotted by the air traffic control?)

[Redbeard]

Personally I think Mycroft was the most reasonable one, willing to sacrifice "the girl" for like, half of London.  When he said all they could give her was "hope", I think he was right on with that assessment (had it been true).  Sherlock and John were too willing to cave to sentiment.

 

But then I love Mycroft...it's easy to be soft; much tougher to be hard for the greater good. 

[gerry]

Everything about the girl on the plane was completely illogical and that 2 men of genius intelligence couldn't tell it was a lie was really unbelievable to me. Because I saw it coming it was a big reason why the big reveal at the end in Eurus' room wasn't moving to me.

[Arcadia]

What tipped you off, Gerry? I admit to thinking it was weird, but I never didn't believe it.

[gerry]

An entire plane filled with passed out/dead people that was flying itself but yet could receive phone calls from Sherinford intermittently directly to the little girl? And this didn't create alarms bells to any police, air traffic control, security, etc.? I also wondered how Sherinford could be taken over and no one outside of it know, like shouldn't there be protocols for security breaches at an institution for criminals? Admittedly, I didn't realize Eurus saw the girl as a metaphor for herself but I knew there was no girl in a plane in danger.

[Shadow Dweller]

A plane that went into radio silence or even if Eurus simulated a chatter for the benefit of the air traffic control, the fact that the plane was way too close to the London Eye make the whole scenario unbelievable. Yes, London because it is the city that is most likely came to the three's minds after hearing about city, river and a big circle, the latter would only be noticeable from the window of a plane if t is glowing because it is dark outside.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I have another thinking about Mycroft based on your discussions.

 

How if Mycroft really, really hides behind a very solid mask all this time, that he is not what he seems.

It seems to me that he was a shy, happy kid, and with everything happens with Eurus and Sherlock, he decides to take up the role as  their ‘guardian’ and continues Uncle Rudy’s legacy to work with the government because as an extremely smart person, he has capability to do so.

 

 During all those time, he builds hard exterior to shell his more delicate self and continues to harden himself along the way. He chooses his lifestyle, learns to hide and suppress his feeling, and most important of all, avoids all involvements with all costs because he can’t really face them. All his great quotes (those I’m never bored quoting), caring is not an advantage, all lives end, all hearts are broken are based on his personal experiences therefore they have become a mantra for him. It’s a basic formula, if I don’t feel it, I won’t lose it or it can’t hurt me. So he shies away from any attachments, any feelings and continues to do his works professionally, which, as we often see, are behind the screen. He plots, he counters, he delegates and orders, but he doesn’t go to field himself, which I actually find believable because at his level of intelligence, he is much more valuable off field. And I find it believable too that Mycroft climbed his rank by providing just that, he probably never once had to break a neck or kill with his own hands, but he could be responsible to many of those behind the screen by assigning someone like Mary to do the task. Also, I believe, most of Mycroft’s victims pose some threats to society. In his mind, it’s okay to get rid of those, especially when he has to choose between them and large scale of innocent people.

 

The only factor that he can’t wrap inside his protective bubble is his family, especially Sherlock, mainly Sherlock. I think young Mycroft is traumatized as well but he chose different way to face it. And, as some had mentioned, I think he always feel certain level of guilt somewhere. To him, he did what is necessary, but he always pays the price. Very constant expensive price.

 

So when he was put into the situation, he breaks.

 

Because regardless of his effort, here is the sister who turns into exactly what he tries to prevent (I am not looking at the result of what he did, but the intention), and since it’s all his call, he is the one who is most responsible.

Here is the brother he tries to protect from the said sister, and they are under her mercy now and he has exhausted his resources and helpless in that situation.

And here, he is tasked with killing someone, who he had known for years, not a villain, not a baddies, not someone he probably ordered to eliminate regularly for the sake of national safety.

 

I agree that him breaking down seems out of character, but I can buy that at that point, he is totally stripped from all his armors to what he is, and maybe, maybe THAT is his actual character. Him being sad on Sherlock side, his expression in helicopter, his attention to ‘danger night’ and the way he tries to shield Sherlock again in SIB, the way he smiles when he saw the flash of the childhood, and the way Sherlock was surprised when he broke down, and Sherlock seems to pick up that, based on his treatment of Mycroft after that, which shows a lot more acceptance and … nicer.

 

IMHO. 

 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Not sure how air traffic controller works, but I always assume they only monitor the traffic within certain perimeter of the airport?

 

But, if a plane lost contact for hours, there would be some actions deployed because the pilot should provide updates frequently. There could be a way to check whether the plane is off route or something, but again, I am not sure if it's only possible after certain device is recoverable from the plane or if they have received location update Because, it's still a challenge to locate missing airplane/sky incident/accident so I assume it's not that easily done in short period of time for the airport's traffic controller to get something is heading to the city.

 

[Shadow Dweller]

People change because life experiences inevitably shape them into the new version each time. Even if he have the core of marshmallow at the beginning, working in that environment will make the mask becomes the integral part of himself. There's a saying that among wolves even lamb would grow fangs.

 

There is an app available for public to track flying planes and the one where the little girl is looks like an ordinary commercial. London also have air ambulance service as well as multitude civilian and police helicopters flying around, a big plane would be spotted one way or another.

[Pseudonym]

A plane flying that close to London and not responding would definitely be being tracked by air traffic control. Before it gets to the point of being within a distance where it could see the London Eye the RAF would have been scrambled. 

[Van Buren Supernova]

People change because life experiences inevitably shape them into the new version each time. Even if he have the core of marshmallow at the beginning, working in that environment will make the mask becomes the integral part of himself. There's a saying that among wolves even lamb would grow fangs.

I agree to that to certain degree. I think adaptation and shaping is crucial to survival, and yes it could be so solid or well integrated that it changes a person, which I believe happens to Mycroft to a degree.

 

However, I believe as well that regardless all that, the core is still there somewhere, hidden and tugged in safely until something specific triggers it, even for the most hard core or seasoned ones. The level of trigger varies between the sensitivity of the trigger and how hard this person has integrated, I think it's similar with what Magnussen calls preassure points. We see it around, although, fortunately, mostly in fiction, of how someone reacts or breaks when the specific points are touched. In ordinary life example, it's probably as equivalent as seeing a very patient person who takes everything, suddenly erupted with intense anger that no one had ever witness before, because he had trained to suppress it all these times. This is a crappy example, I know. Point is, pressure points. True nature. True colors.

 

This could be a rare, specific occasion that breaks it for Mycroft, and for a short moment, shows his actual self, which he quickly tries to gather and hides back.

 

There is an app available for public to track flying planes and the one where the little girl is looks like an ordinary commercial. London also have air ambulance service as well as multitude civilian and police helicopters flying around, a big plane would be spotted one way or another.

You are right..interesting.

This is what I saw flying around London.

So, is there a possibility that the airplane change course only when it's very near, and also, I suppose this is long distance flight, although the plane seems small (the girl said it's big, but from what I rememeber, it seems like 3-3 configuration) so during earlier communications, is it possible that it's in uncontrolled airspace? Which I assume, communination with tower are not required/possible therefore what happens with the plane is not known?

[Shadow Dweller]

*grins* Are we talking about enneagram here? I wonder about how many desperate lose-lose situation Mycroft had been involved in because his reaction at the S4 eps 3 looks like how an unseasoned person would be.

 

Plane. It is the altitude, just look at the angle of the 'big circle' when seen from the plane. To be able to see that shape instead of a distorted version means the plane fly way too low and had entered the airspace where normally helicopters flying in. If that's not suspicious *shakes head* Besides, if Eurus had indeed gained control of the plane, nothing three trapped men can do. Mycroft had choose to cut the excesses and deal right with the crux of the matter. When in normal and controlled situation that is the correct course of action, here he is being too hasty.

[gerry]

The only factor that he can’t wrap inside his protective bubble is his family, especially Sherlock, mainly Sherlock. I think young Mycroft is traumatized as well but he chose different way to face it. And, as some had mentioned, I think he always feel certain level of guilt somewhere. To him, he did what is necessary, but he always pays the price. Very constant expensive price.

 

Yes, Sherlock has always been Mycroft's "weakness". It was obvious even to Irene and Moriarty. Mycroft is that dependable sibling that takes on the hard tasks like taking care of ill parents and protecting his siblings. His love for Sherlock has been obvious since TSIP, even if he doesn't fully understand Sherlock. Sherlock in turn has resented Mycroft's meddling but given Sherlock's issues, he needed the meddling.

 

What I liked about TFP for Mycroft is that it showed Sherlock gain an understanding of his big brother that I don't think he had before and a more human side but what I didn't like about TFP for Mycroft is that it showed him as too gullible/incompetent about Sherinford for the sake of the plot. He didn't know Eurus had gotten out or that security had been breached or that Eurus was lying about the little girl? I don't like that in the show that to be human the character seems to lose all of their intelligence. Why is human feelings and intelligence mutually exclusive? Moffat/Gatiss tried to say that TFP was a lesson that Sherlock is better, not smarter, than Mycroft because of his newfound empathy but did they need Mycroft to be dumb to show that?

[J.P.]

Okay, one thing about the plane situation being obviously fake: whatever would have happened around the plane, if it was detected, and if anything was done about it - our boys had no way of knowing it. Their only information source was Eurus and they had to work with this alone.

[Pseudonym]

I cottoned on there was something not real about it when the girl started drinking her juice box. I don't know why but it was incongruous to the supposed panic she was feeling that she would go and get a box of juice. 

 

I wish the plane wasn't fake, it would have been a much more interesting storyline than them going through a maze.

[Carol the Dabbler]

What puzzled me was, the emergency oxygen masks had deployed, meaning there was insufficient air in the cabin. Plus everyone else was either unconscious or dead. Yet here was this little girl just as perky as you please.

 

It never occurred to me that it was a hoax, because we were *seeing* her and the plane and everything. So I was trying to figure out how that was possible.

 

Guess this was just another instance of Moftiss "fooling" (i.e., lying to) us.

[J.P.]

Well this situation seemed still somehow possible within the Sherlock universe - unlike the rest of S4 :P  So I actually waited for an explanation.

[Arcadia]

I thought maybe what they were trying to show us (and I admit they could have done a better job of it) was not that Mycroft was suddenly dumb, but that he was never as smart as he thought he was ... because he doesn't factor in the human component to a sufficient degree, and therefore assumes he's in control of a situation when in fact, there are wild cards at play. Like he "didn't know" that Sherlock was capable of being beguiled by Irene, for instance. Or that he'd be willing to commit murder to protect Mary. Or that he'd take drugs because he was bored out of his mind in jail.

 

Although that doesn't really make sense either, because he knew Sherlock was at risk of turning to drugs after Irene "died." He knew to check on Sherlock's mental status during John's wedding. Hm. Well, I guess even Mycroft misses things sometimes. Mostly when it's convenient for the plot, I suspect. :p

[gerry]

Okay, one thing about the plane situation being obviously fake: whatever would have happened around the plane, if it was detected, and if anything was done about it - our boys had no way of knowing it. Their only information source was Eurus and they had to work with this alone.

I'd agree with this but if she could show video of Molly, why couldn't she show video of the girl in the plane? And considering Eurus lied in almost all of the rooms about something, why would they assume she was telling the truth about the plane? She lied about which Garrideb she was going to release, she told Sherlock Molly's house was rigged and then she told him she didn't, etc.

 

Well, I guess even Mycroft misses things sometimes. Mostly when it's convenient for the plot, I suspect. :p

That's it in a nutshell I'm afraid.

[Arcadia]

Filling in some of my earlier thoughts now that I have an extra minute ....

 

For Mycroft because I always believed he didn't care much about normal people, and whilst I understand the point about him being a bureaucrat and removed from the bloody reality I always thought he was cold enough not to care if it came down to it. I certainly didn't expect him to start heaving at the sight of someone shooting themselves in front of him - I thought he'd be more likely to straighten his tie, sneer, and walk off without thinking too much about it. Or at least acting as if he didn't think about it - I can believe that when he is alone at night it would come back to haunt him. I would have thought showing a reaction like he did would have been the ultimate weakness for him, maybe it's not that I believe he is completely cold, but that he acts that way and would never let that mask drop, even around his brother. 

 

For John I thought he would have shot the Guv to save his wife. He just lost Mary, I think he would have sacrificed himself to save her, and would have shot the Guv out or respect for him trying to do the same thing. We know he can shoot people pretty cold-bloodedly (the cabbie), and whilst I don't think he would want to kill the Guv or necessarily be okay with it, I think he would do it. 

 

Sherlock. A lot of this relies on your head-cannon as to what he got up to while he was away. Personally I don't think Magnussen was the first person he killed, because when you are infiltrating a dangerous criminal web stopping to get each member of each cell arrested (with the necessary evidence, and not having them released on bail, and actually being convicted, possibly in some areas that are a bit backwards in regards to policing), it's inefficient. I think he got people arrested where he could, did try to avoid killing people, but after the first few times he didn't shy away from it either. I don't think he didn't care, he probably went through hell over it, but he did it because it meant saving those he cared about at home and it meant to be could come back. And that's without stirring the hornet's nest of his apparent lack of reaction at killing Magnussen (though we don't see him after, he could have had a break down for all we know). I think he would have shot the Guv because he had killed people before, and it would have saved John from having to do it. Also he would have looked at it coldly and analytically - kill one person to save another or let both die? He's less emotional than John when it comes to such simple equations, so he would have done it. 

 

I don't think it was meant to be him though was it? Wasn't it meant to be one of the other two?

 

That's why I thought the implication was that Eurus believed Sherlock would shoot the guv without anguishing over it ... because she insisted it be one of the other two. She wanted to see what kind of emotional response the situation would produce, and didn't think Sherlock would have any. If that's it, though, I believe she was wrong ... I don't think Sherlock could have pulled the trigger either. He liked the guy; later on he called the governor "a brave man." That's why I thought any of them would have trouble killing the guy ... he made a mistake that set Eurus free, but he wasn't a bad man, particularly. He clearly regretted his mistake.

 

By nature terrorists cannot be trusted and so is your business competitor. You can choose to sulk like a child about the unfairness of the world or dive in and get yourself dirty to achieve something. Imagine if people tasked to protect the citizens from their threats are wimps, it is the 'ordinary' people who will suffer because their supposed protector is a bunch of inexperienced cowards.

 

I don't think it's fair to categorize someone who refuses to kill as a wimpy, inexperienced coward. Some of them may be, but it's also true that it can take more courage to die for a cause than to kill for one. And the decision to kill is not always motivated by noble reasons. Seldom is, if you ask me.

 

I agree their position for bargaining was very weak, but I can still see a point in not giving in, for the reason it makes Eurus believe that they will fight back, which makes them more interesting opponents, more worth playing with and less worth tossing into the sea immediately. I think Sherlock gradually comes around to thinking the way I described about Eurus because he sees with the phone call that even if he does things her way he may not 'win' and so he also opts out of playing by turning the gun on himself- so he makes a fairly significant move towards not playing by her rules either, in the end. If only he'd thought of it sooner, maybe we could have had more time in the episode not spent in Sherrinford...

 

Oddly enough, even though I thought the girl on the plane scenario was unrealistic, it didn't occur to me to think it was unreal. On the other hand, it was clear to me that eventually Eurus would tell Sherlock to shoot the other two, and that his solution would be to shoot himself instead. To me it was so obvious, I couldn't believe Eurus wouldn't have realized it herself. Although she must have anticipated something could go wrong, or why have the tranq darts installed? But if she did anticipate Sherlock's solution, then why did she sound panicky when Sherlock threatened to kill himself? The ultimate goal was to get him and John to Musgrave so she could put John in the well, right? So what did she hope to achieve with the "games" in Sherrinford, anyway? I have trouble seeing any connection between the "games" and the puzzle in the graveyard. It just seems rather random, to me. But she IS crazy, I think, so maybe her actions are supposed to make sense? Urgh.

 

What I see is a terrible execution of what could be character-defining for all of them. It is Mofftiss' fault, they can do much better than this as we already see at the previous seasons. I too have soft spot for Mycroft because from all he seems to be the one closest to my mindset.

 

There are two archetypes in the entertainment industry, the chessmaster and the magnificent bastard, Mycroft keeps flipping between the two. At the previous seasons he is the second type but in S4 he is the first and that's what is ridiculous.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard

 

Based on that, I would have said that Mycroft has always been the chessmaster -- at least in his own mind -- and Sherlock is the Magnificent Bastard.

 

Also, do we have any reason to believe that, if one of them had shot the governor, Eurus really would have freed the wife?  I mean, consider her treatment of the three Garridebs.  And consider what happened after Sherlock gave in and humiliated both himself and Molly.

 

Nope, I don't think it makes a bit of sense to play her game, since she seems to make up the rules as she goes along.

Ex-ACT-ly. That's the other part that doesn't make sense to me ... why not just sit in a circle on the floor, toss the gun in a corner, and refuse to "play"? Passive resistance....

 

I have another thinking about Mycroft based on your discussions.

 

How if Mycroft really, really hides behind a very solid mask all this time, that he is not what he seems.

It seems to me that he was a shy, happy kid, and with everything happens with Eurus and Sherlock, he decides to take up the role as  their ‘guardian’ and continues Uncle Rudy’s legacy to work with the government because as an extremely smart person, he has capability to do so.

 

 During all those time, he builds hard exterior to shell his more delicate self and continues to harden himself along the way. He chooses his lifestyle, learns to hide and suppress his feeling, and most important of all, avoids all involvements with all costs because he can’t really face them. All his great quotes (those I’m never bored quoting), caring is not an advantage, all lives end, all hearts are broken are based on his personal experiences therefore they have become a mantra for him. It’s a basic formula, if I don’t feel it, I won’t lose it or it can’t hurt me. So he shies away from any attachments, any feelings and continues to do his works professionally, which, as we often see, are behind the screen. He plots, he counters, he delegates and orders, but he doesn’t go to field himself, which I actually find believable because at his level of intelligence, he is much more valuable off field. And I find it believable too that Mycroft climbed his rank by providing just that, he probably never once had to break a neck or kill with his own hands, but he could be responsible to many of those behind the screen by assigning someone like Mary to do the task. Also, I believe, most of Mycroft’s victims pose some threats to society. In his mind, it’s okay to get rid of those, especially when he has to choose between them and large scale of innocent people.

 

The only factor that he can’t wrap inside his protective bubble is his family, especially Sherlock, mainly Sherlock. I think young Mycroft is traumatized as well but he chose different way to face it. And, as some had mentioned, I think he always feel certain level of guilt somewhere. To him, he did what is necessary, but he always pays the price. Very constant expensive price.

 

So when he was put into the situation, he breaks.

 

Because regardless of his effort, here is the sister who turns into exactly what he tries to prevent (I am not looking at the result of what he did, but the intention), and since it’s all his call, he is the one who is most responsible.

Here is the brother he tries to protect from the said sister, and they are under her mercy now and he has exhausted his resources and helpless in that situation.

And here, he is tasked with killing someone, who he had known for years, not a villain, not a baddies, not someone he probably ordered to eliminate regularly for the sake of national safety.

 

I agree that him breaking down seems out of character, but I can buy that at that point, he is totally stripped from all his armors to what he is, and maybe, maybe THAT is his actual character. Him being sad on Sherlock side, his expression in helicopter, his attention to ‘danger night’ and the way he tries to shield Sherlock again in SIB, the way he smiles when he saw the flash of the childhood, and the way Sherlock was surprised when he broke down, and Sherlock seems to pick up that, based on his treatment of Mycroft after that, which shows a lot more acceptance and … nicer.

 

IMHO.

 

I think this is closer to how I've always viewed Mycroft than any other description.

[Surelock]

This recent discussion makes me wonder: why couldn't Mycroft figure out that the girl on the plane was fake? Why didn't he tell Euros to prove it was real by showing video evidence? 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Eurus could very reasonably have asked Mycroft how he expected her to get a live video feed from an airplane. It would have been a piece of cake to get a hook-up to Molly's place when they were (supposedly) planting the explosives. I think I could do that. But it sounds far more difficult to tap into whatever might be transmitted from a plane in flight.

[Shadow Dweller]

>> I don't think it's fair to categorize someone who refuses to kill as a wimpy, inexperienced coward. Some of them may be, but it's also true that it can take more courage to die for a cause than to kill for one. And the decision to kill is not always motivated by noble reasons. Seldom is, if you ask me.

 

Fair or not it is result that ultimately matter. If those responsible to protect the nation is a slave of their own impulses instead of reason then they doesn't have business to be in that role. They are in that role because they are trusted as capable to prioritize and when a colleague was compromised to the degree like the governor had been it is time to replace him. He is no longer trustable and that relegated him to the dime a dozen status, get a replacement who did not sold the whole fortress to a dangerous criminal for the sake of his wife.

 

No, Magnificent Bastard is way too high for this Sherlock. He have a touch of Manipulative Bastard without the need to control others and that's that. He doesn't have strong bent to scheme, he simply reacted most of the time. No schemer unless it is necessary and even that he is limited in scope. This is why I thought that it is not Sherlock who is Jim's counterpart but Mycroft.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManipulativeBastard