John Watson

[Pseudonym]

When was that? 

 

Though since he first met her naked I wouldn't be surprised if that's a reason she shows up naked in his head. Yup, definitely think it's a case of 'what lens we view Sherlock.'

[T.o.b.y]

When was that?

 

Though since he first met her naked I wouldn't be surprised if that's a reason she shows up naked in his head. Yup, definitely think it's a case of 'what lens we view Sherlock.'

I view him as intentionally celibate rather than asexual but with naturally not a very high sex drive either. Meaning, I don't think celibacy is hard for him.

 

The scene I am talking about was in The Sign of Three. In Sherlock's Mind Palace. I would try to link a video clip or image if I wasn't too stupid to do so on my phone. But if you Google "Sherlock Irene Sign of Three", you get several hits.

[Pseudonym]

Here it is. 

 

 

He looks miffed to me. Turns to see her, huffs, and then tells her to sod off. 

[T.o.b.y]

Just watched the scene. It's actually "out of my head, I am busy". First he remembers her wearing his dressing gown, then she shows up naked in the Mind Palace and caresses his face. Which leads to the above mentioned quote.

 

Eta: sorry, Pseudonym, cross posted. Yeah, he could be annoyed at her presence. But it's his Mind Palace and if he was able to erase his sister out of it for good, why is Naked Irene in there if not by at least occasional invitation...? :-D

 

Not an idea I am terribly keen on, btw. But to me, it does look like that was what they were trying to convey.

[Artemis]

But instead of getting annoyed and telling him off for pestering him with such a "frivolous" subject and / or explaining again how he is married to his work and doesn't do girlfriends,

He does start to, though.

 

SHERLOCK (sighing): As I think I have explained to you many times before, romantic entanglement, while fulfilling for other people ...

JOHN (interrupting): ... would complete you as a human being.

SHERLOCK: That doesn’t even mean anything.

[Boton]

Yeah, definitely depends on your Sherlock lens.  I see the TSoT scene with naked Irene as an indication that lately, every time he goes into his mind palace, Naked Irene is there, distracting him from his work and causing him to take some "private time."   ;)

 

The scene Artemis quotes above, I definitely think is utter BS on the part of Sherlock.  That's his stock answer, and John finally called him on it.  

 

(I do see where everyone else is coming from - I enjoy a good ace Sherlock interpretation every once in a while.  It's just that that is not "my" Sherlock.)

[J.P.]

What I saw first in that scene was John misinterpreting Sherlock (again). It reminds me of the thousands of times, people tried explain me to me and do me good according to their own POV. John assumes that Sherlock has to be like him deep inside, because he's not even able to imagine someone can be that different.

[Boton]

What I saw first in that scene was John misinterpreting Sherlock (again). It reminds me of the thousands of times, people tried explain me to me and do me good according to their own POV. John assumes that Sherlock has to be like him deep inside, because he's not even able to imagine someone can be that different.

 

I can definitely see this.  When I watched it again, though, I thought that John wasn't in any kind of position to actually be thinking about Sherlock's life.  John, to me, is thinking about John there - how much he'd like to be back at the "possibilities" stage of a relationship and how he thought his marriage, for all its flaws, made him a complete person.  I guess I give John a lot of slack for doing his own processing during that scene more than focusing on what he was really conveying to Sherlock.

 

Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that people have made you feel that way IRL.  That's not cool.  You're absolutely fine just as you are.  :)

[Pseudonym]

That's why I hate, hate, hate that scene. Sherlock does try to explain to John that he's different, and John just steamrollers over him. Yes, he's dealing with a lot, but he doesn't even just steamroller over Sherlock's own thoughts and feelings, he's aggressive about it. 

 

I know that John is thinking mostly of John in this scene. But when someone says something like that to you, something that is a core part of themselves, and you just ignore it and tell them they should do the opposite of what they have just explained because it would 'complete them as a human being'... I just... WTF. I don't think Sherlock is 'making excuses' here, because why would he? They are both so beaten down in this scene. If Sherlock just nodded and agreed with John it would be easier on the both of them, the fact he doesn't says, to me, that what he's saying is actually how he really feels. 

[J.P.]

He's clueless. As usual.

[Pseudonym]

Yes. I'm willing to give John a lot of slack given all that's happened, but I can't excuse the morgue, or this. It reads to me as blatant dismissal of Sherlock's autonomy and ability to understand his own feelings. I agree that John isn't thinking much about Sherlock as a person here, but still, that whole 'completing you as a human being' line infuriates me. But, I have ranted about it in many a post before, so I won't harp on about it again. Much as I may want to.  

 

On a slightly different note, or at least from a different angle;

 

I don't think John's marriage made him a complete person either. If it had, why would he be so desperate for a bit of an adrenaline rush (the drug den), why would he be emotionally unfaithful? I think he wanted it to make him complete, that he had this standard in his head of being in the perfect marriage, the perfect unit with Mary and Rosie, and how wonderful that would feel... but it didn't work. Maybe because Mary turned out to be what she was. Maybe because John himself wasn't cut out for domesticity. I think a big part of John's reaction here is because he feels like a failure for that too, he believes that marriage should have completed him... and it didn't. 

[Pseudonym]

I should probably also add, since we were talking about lenses earlier, that obviously a lot of my indignation comes from seeing Sherlock as Ace. If I saw him as being straight I could shrug off a lot of that scene. If I saw him as being gay I would be irritated John was harping on about some woman they met years earlier, but I'd not be as annoyed. 

It also comes from personally being told things like 'you just haven't met the right person' in direct contradiction to something I've just said. It happens repeatedly and it can be exhausting. After a while you start to become a bit militant about it. And this scene just flips that switch for me. So apologies if I'm too vitriolic, I try to rein it in. 

[gerry]

Excuse my ignorance but is Ace supposed to mean in this context?

[Carol the Dabbler]

"Ace" is shorthand for "asexual."

 

I don't think John's marriage made him a complete person either. If it had, why would he be so desperate for a bit of an adrenaline rush (the drug den)....

Maybe this is the point you're making, but I don't see how any single facet of one's life (marriage, career, creative hobby, etc.) can by itself make one a complete person. Goodness knows some people try! And maybe some succeed, particularly those whose "one" field of endeavor is actually multifaceted. But anyhow, no demerits to John for "failing to be completed" by his marriage. Besides, he was married less than a year, which (in my experience) is merely a good (one hopes) start.

 

And sorry, but I still can't see John as an adrenaline junkie. Take the incident you mention -- a friend of Mary's shows up in tears because her son is off somewhere doing drugs. What is John to do, send her to the police, who would arrest the kid? In my view, John's need is not danger, he needs to feel that he's doing something meaningful, helpful, useful. That's why he became a doctor. And because he's both a doctor and a soldier he has the necessary skills and experience to rescue Isaac himself. Plus he's a good guy, so he goes ahead and does it.

[Arcadia]

This show... Nothing is ever clear cut that's going on between human beings...

 

Yeah, but isn't life like that? It's weird ... this show is basically, to me, a schoolboy fantasy, but it gets at the complexities of humans so well ....

 

 

 

 

Irene is a crazy dangerous femme fatal who sends Sherlock naughty texts once in a while and whom he occasionally likes to imagine naked.

 

Not to be argumentative, but I'm genuinely curious what makes you think he sometimes likes to imagine her naked? He doesn't seem particularly interested when she's straddling his thigh. He looks bemused more than anything. I've always thought of Sherlock's fascination with Irene as being with her mind rather than her body. He finds the way she thinks fascinating, plus the fact she almost beat him. In the scenes where we see them together and she flirts with him he either looks uncomfortable or ignores it completely. 

 

Maybe it's another one of those things where it depends what we believe about Sherlock's sexuality as to how we read into his relationship with Irene.

 

 

Your last part is definitely true, because I always see Sherlock as hetero but intentionally celibate.  And all the instances you mention above I read as interest hiding behind feigned indifference.

 

 

Same here. To show interest would be losing the game she's playing with him. Although I also agree her mind is the real turn on for him.

 

He looks miffed to me. Turns to see her, huffs, and then tells her to sod off.

 

 

It's in his head, so I thought he was chastising himself for thinking about her when he's supposed to be working?

 

 

I don't think John's marriage made him a complete person either. If it had, why would he be so desperate for a bit of an adrenaline rush (the drug den), why would he be emotionally unfaithful? I think he wanted it to make him complete, that he had this standard in his head of being in the perfect marriage, the perfect unit with Mary and Rosie, and how wonderful that would feel... but it didn't work. Maybe because Mary turned out to be what she was. Maybe because John himself wasn't cut out for domesticity. I think a big part of John's reaction here is because he feels like a failure for that too, he believes that marriage should have completed him... and it didn't.

 

John even says that himself; "That's the whole point."  Followed by "Who [Mary] thought I was is the man I want to be." I suspect that's a rather male notion of romance, because I've heard men say things like that before. Having a woman in their life makes them a better person, etc. etc. I'm inclined to disagree -- I'm more disposed to think people should find themselves within themselves, not in someone else -- but I respect the sentiment. And I feel a bit sorry for John there ... he's facing a hard truth, which is that he failed both Mary and Sherlock, and for selfish reasons; and he thinks he's supposed to be above that. That he's supposed to be as perfect as all those fanfics make him out to be. But as Sherlock might say, real people are rarely so neat ....

[Pseudonym]

My part about John not being complete was just responding to this bit Boton said. :smile:

 

 

John, to me, is thinking about John there - how much he'd like to be back at the "possibilities" stage of a relationship and how he thought his marriage, for all its flaws, made him a complete person.  I guess I give John a lot of slack for doing his own processing during that scene more than focusing on what he was really conveying to Sherlock.

[T.o.b.y]

I totally agree that John is talking more about himself than about Sherlock really and that what he says to Sherlock is, taken at surface value, BS. What I like about the scene is how Sherlock eventually understands the real message - John is still a mess after the relationship with and loss of Mary - and responds to that rather than continuing to talk about himself or trying to reason John out of his feelings.

 

I think that's a big step for him, I can't see series 1 Sherlock behaving like this. And it's quite a big deal for John too to be expressing as much emotion as he does there, I mean, he even cries. From the little we have seen, he certainly was never this open with his therapist.

 

What I also absolutely love is that Sherlock realizes Mary is in the room, that John has been seeing and talking to her and that this is an issue. And how he just accepts that. It's the same story as when they met, basically, Sherlock sees everything that's out of whack with John but unlike John himself, he doesn't think any less of him for it.

 

This should probably go in the "how do you relate" section but I think it's this message - it's okay not to be okay - that touches my heartstrings. So you have PTSD. So you had a psychosomatic limp. So you have anger management issues. You can't express your feelings. You never apologize for anything. You have trouble adjusting to civilian life. Now you you're talking to your dead wife. Whom you cheated on. So what? You're a valuable friend and a capable partner in crime (solving). That's what counts.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I'm on the side of not liking the scene here, and actually wondering why John even gave that 'advice' in the first place.

 

For all the pain, dissatisfaction, emotional confusion and heartache, I thought he would, for once, thinking that the brothers have a point there for wanting to be detached from all those..

[Pseudonym]

Sorry but I don't like him realising Mary is there either. But then I think the whole Mary still being around is overdone anyway. 

 

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

This show... Nothing is ever clear cut that's going on between human beings...

Yeah, but isn't life like that? It's weird ... this show is basically, to me, a schoolboy fantasy, but it gets at the complexities of humans so well ....

 

 

 

Irene is a crazy dangerous femme fatal who sends Sherlock naughty texts once in a while and whom he occasionally likes to imagine naked.

Not to be argumentative, but I'm genuinely curious what makes you think he sometimes likes to imagine her naked? He doesn't seem particularly interested when she's straddling his thigh. He looks bemused more than anything. I've always thought of Sherlock's fascination with Irene as being with her mind rather than her body. He finds the way she thinks fascinating, plus the fact she almost beat him. In the scenes where we see them together and she flirts with him he either looks uncomfortable or ignores it completely.

 

Maybe it's another one of those things where it depends what we believe about Sherlock's sexuality as to how we read into his relationship with Irene.

Your last part is definitely true, because I always see Sherlock as hetero but intentionally celibate. And all the instances you mention above I read as interest hiding behind feigned indifference.

Same here. To show interest would be losing the game she's playing with him. Although I also agree her mind is the real turn on for him.

He looks miffed to me. Turns to see her, huffs, and then tells her to sod off.

 

It's in his head, so I thought he was chastising himself for thinking about her when he's supposed to be working?

 

I don't think John's marriage made him a complete person either. If it had, why would he be so desperate for a bit of an adrenaline rush (the drug den), why would he be emotionally unfaithful? I think he wanted it to make him complete, that he had this standard in his head of being in the perfect marriage, the perfect unit with Mary and Rosie, and how wonderful that would feel... but it didn't work. Maybe because Mary turned out to be what she was. Maybe because John himself wasn't cut out for domesticity. I think a big part of John's reaction here is because he feels like a failure for that too, he believes that marriage should have completed him... and it didn't.

John even says that himself; "That's the whole point." Followed by "Who [Mary] thought I was is the man I want to be." I suspect that's a rather male notion of romance, because I've heard men say things like that before. Having a woman in their life makes them a better person, etc. etc. I'm inclined to disagree -- I'm more disposed to think people should find themselves within themselves, not in someone else -- but I respect the sentiment. And I feel a bit sorry for John there ... he's facing a hard truth, which is that he failed both Mary and Sherlock, and for selfish reasons; and he thinks he's supposed to be above that. That he's supposed to be as perfect as all those fanfics make him out to be. But as Sherlock might say, real people are rarely so neat ....

What I've seen over the years is we think we know who we are but then we get a significant other or have a child and realize some rough areas we either didn't know we had or didn't realize how bad they actually were. That other person can directly ('hey, I noticed this, try it this way instead') or indirectly ('I like him/her & seeing him/her do x made me realize I need to improve here') push us to be a better version of ourselves (sometimes it happens in hindsight as we reflect on the relationship with that other person). We want to work on smoothing out those rough areas.

 

I think John had that realization to some degree towards the end of his time with Mary before they handled the aquarium incident and a more full realization after the DVD message he saw. He realized that Mary knew what he needed to be the best version of John he could be and that included a strong friendship with Sherlock that was healthier than what we saw at the beginning of TEH and through most of TLD.

[Boton]

I agree with that, CAMPer.  There are lots of paths to being a "complete" person, but having a spouse changes you in a unique way.  Having a child changes you (I am told). Having friends, or siblings, or parents in your life can change you.  I think John sees that, and he's viewing everything through that lens, particularly because the scene is largely him talking to Mary with occasional asides to Sherlock.

[Arcadia]

I'm on the side of not liking the scene here, and actually wondering why John even gave that 'advice' in the first place.

 

For all the pain, dissatisfaction, emotional confusion and heartache, I thought he would, for once, thinking that the brothers have a point there for wanting to be detached from all those..

 

Because John knows what you are at risk of missing when you avoid situations that could potentially lead to heartache. The Holmes brothers don't know what they're talking about because they've never taken the chance of sharing themselves with someone, so they have no way of knowing whether being detached is actually "better."

 

Is it worth it? Is it worth a year of heartache to try to experience a moment of bliss? My guess is that, like most things, it's different for everyone.

[J.P.]

We actually don't know if the brothers never have taken a chance.

[Boton]

I'll bet Mycroft has taken a chance or two.  Somehow, while I tend to believe that he satisfies carnal urges through a nice, discrete service provided by the Diogenes, I've always thought that he had a relationship or two when he was a field agent and doing more of the legwork.  

[Pseudonym]

The name's Bond. Myc Bond.