Sherlock (the BBC character)

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't know, I'd say John is a bit lacking in the good man category too. 

 

Because he's not perfect, you mean?  :P   I know that some people don't care for the way he has handled certain situations.  That's up to them (and I'm not too happy in some cases myself), but I would argue that failure to do the ideal thing all the time is not indicative of a bad person, merely of an actual flesh-and-blood human (as Sherlock said).  I believe that John acts like a good man in general, and therefore I would say that he is a good man.

 

[Pseudonym]

I don't know, he's just so angry. He always seems like he might explode without warning. And now, of course, he has. But even before that, he's angry, the way he talks to Sherlock in the beginning of The Blind Banker, he's the stereotypical short angry man. I'm not saying he's bad, but he's not all that good either. He just is. 

[J.P.]

Yea, I don't really believe that. I think he jumped because he had to, I don't think there was any 'I'll kill this friendship before anyone else can use it to hurt me.'

 

Of course he didn't do it consciously. But people do more crazy things without knowing why. So for me, in the perspective of S4 it is a plausible explanation.

[Inge l-w]

Oh, we need plausible explanations urgently, because what we got was a whole load of fanboy frolicking to no purpose and leaving as many questions unanswered. What is especially IRKSOME is the final Mary-the-gun-for-hire, aka a Mrs Smith clone, calling the two most iconic characters in detective fiction HER Baker Str boys! Lady, you have been warped enough ever since HLV, don't add insult to injury by appropriating Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson! In the end, it's pathetic.

[Arcadia]

 

Yea, I don't really believe that. I think he jumped because he had to, I don't think there was any 'I'll kill this friendship before anyone else can use it to hurt me.'

 

Of course he didn't do it consciously. But people do more crazy things without knowing why. So for me, in the perspective of S4 it is a plausible explanation.

 

 

Quite right. I've always liked the theory that Sherlock's such a good actor that he fooled even himself into thinking he was actually going to die, but I'm open to other ideas. :P

 

Seriously, I wish I could believe they thought of that, because I'd like to think they actually put that much effort into it. So sure, why the heck not ... I hereby declare it plausible to me as well. Because those of us who are still loyal need to stick together, right, JP? 

[Pseudonym]

I saw somewhere that he wasn't meant to cry, because Sherlock likely wouldn't have, he just got caught up in the phonecall performance in his ear piece from MF. Is that not true?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Once more, we really need those shooting scripts!

 

However, I will venture a guess that the "he got caught up in it" thing is just a nice little fannish myth. BC is famous for being able to weep on cue. So my best guess is, it was either in the script, or the director suggested it, or BC did. As to why Sherlock would have shed tears, there are any number of plausible theories.

[kimber8ada]

Oh, we need plausible explanations urgently, because what we got was a whole load of fanboy frolicking to no purpose and leaving as many questions unanswered. What is especially IRKSOME is the final Mary-the-gun-for-hire, aka a Mrs Smith clone, calling the two most iconic characters in detective fiction HER Baker Street Boys.

 

I've probably said this before but my main problem with Mary was the way she was inserted into the "team".  I resented her referring to Sherlock and John as Her boys and also giving them her permission to go out and be Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson.  Isn't that who and what they were before she came along?  They seemed to be doing just fine as a team without her input.  I was also puzzled, after learning of her past, why she would have gotten involved with John in the first place.  She knew of his ties to Sherlock and therefore to Mycroft also.  Why run the risk of being exposed?  I also don't believe that Sherlock was responsible for Mary's death.  I know John needed to blame someone, but as far as I'm concerned, Mary's past killed her.  If she hadn't been who she was and hadn't lied about and/or omitted her past to John she would never have been in the situation she found herself in.  Yes, you can say that Sherlock goaded Mrs. Norbury, but Mary made the decision all on her own to jump in front of that bullet.

 

Kimberly

[Pseudonym]

Yup, agree totally. I think I might have liked Mary if it wasn't for all that. It's patronising to have her tell them to be Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson. But then I always get angry at couples 'allowing' each other to be something. And having them be 'her boys' after she shot one of them, her telling them what she can see them being even from beyond the grave. Urgh.

 

In the long run what was the point of that shooting? If there weren't going to be any consequences why not just have John discover what she was some other way? Or even keep it the same but have her pistol whip Sherlock, knocking him out but not shooting him?

[gerry]

I'm actually suprised then that you liked T6T. I hated that episode because it had so much Mary in it. I liked her ok until they made her a superspy and then everything with her was so OTT. I also found it ridiculous that Sherlock would push John back towards her after she lied about everything and after she shot him especially after he was so dismissive of all John's other girlfriends.

[Pseudonym]

The Mary parts really grate on me, I would definitely prefer it if there were less of her.

[Arcadia]

In the long run what was the point of that shooting? If there weren't going to be any consequences why not just have John discover what she was some other way? Or even keep it the same but have her pistol whip Sherlock, knocking him out but not shooting him?

Dramatic intensity. :P

 

I still have the nagging feeling the only reason they introduced Mary was because Steven really, really wanted to write Sherlock's wedding speech. He just seemed so excited about that, it was cute to watch him talk about it.

 

Then they had to figure out what to do with her, and not be accused of sexism because her role was "too small."

 

Just to be contrary: I liked Mary, a lot. I thought making her an assassin was stupidly over-dramatic, but I liked her. I liked her personality, I liked the way she "handled" the boys; with understanding, but without putting up with much nonsense. I liked the way Sherlock behaved better around her. I don't think she took anything away from the show, except for her stupid assassin past. If they couldn't think of any other role for her, I wish they'd just kept her in the background for awhile, and learned to shrug off the sexism remarks. And when they did kill her off, I wish they'd done it in a way that didn't make me cringe with embarrassment. Their actors deserved better, even if their audience didn't.

 

*sigh*

 

​Okay, so I was looking at some new Sherlock fan videos earlier today, and in the comments there were a lot of "oh, Mary's death wrecked me" and "S4 was SOOO good." So ..... the show managed to please some people. (Or maybe they were just more polite than we are. :P) I've decided to be happy about that.

[Arcadia]

It just hit me as I was looking at the T6T thread, and y'all were lamenting the disappearance of the minor characters .... it's not Mary that changed the show, imo, it's the ascension of Mycroft. I was always a little bit afraid he'd become too important to the story, and unfortunately I think I was right. As long as he and Sherlock were just sparring partners, he was interesting, but as soon as they started to bring up their past together, I felt the show was shifting from John & Sherlock to Mycroft & Sherlock. Not that I don't enjoy Mycroft ... it just shifted the emphasis of the show, and made a little less room for everyone else ... most notably John, in S3. And everyone else in S4.

[gerry]

I think it shifted when they went away from consulting detective focus to terrorist plots, weddings and government assassins, not necessarily Mycroft specific. TLD was the most like seasons 1 and 2 because it focused on John and Sherlock solving a case together which not coincidentally was the one episode with Lestrade.

[Shadow Dweller]

Mycroft is a show-stealer since from the first appearance, he is that captivating and any scene's atmosphere automatically change each time he shows up as a person. ;)

[Pseudonym]

I don't mind Mycroft being in it more, though I would have preferred to know more about this kind of thing than what they actually showed us.

 

[Arcadia]

All true. Although Mycroft and spies sort of go together, don't you think?

 

Anyway, I don't mind Mycroft ... I just think his increasing role left less time for other characters.

[gerry]

Except that Mary and Ajay being spies/assassins had nothing to do with Mycroft.

[Pseudonym]

I was led to believe they weren't spies though, they were mercenaries and/or assassins. 

 

Why does the conversation always flare up at my bedtime and when I'm sleeping? Damn time differences. In the day when I'm bored stiff, nothing, now at almost 2 in the morning there's a conversation going. 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Actually one of the reasons I enjoy TFP is the abundance of dynamic between Sherlock, John and Mycroft.

[gerry]

Agreed.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Why does the conversation always flare up at my bedtime and when I'm sleeping? Damn time differences. In the day when I'm bored stiff, nothing, now at almost 2 in the morning there's a conversation going. 

We need more British members. Weird that the forum is about a British program, yet most members are American, European, and others -- hardly any British now.

[Arcadia]

Nah, Pseud just needs to adjust her sleeping schedule. :p

[J.P.]

Was thinking about the MI6 scene again and notices something strange about the reception of it: Why the hell I was seeing Sherlock as acting out of character, while I was perfectly fine with the palace scene? The last was as ridiculous as the first. Sherlock, in a sheet, behaving like a tantrum-ing child and Mycroft spitting venom and trying not to strangle him in front of his peers.

Any thoughts on this?

[Pseudonym]

You're right that there are similarities. Maybe the Twitter debacle and the fact he's just killed someone? It's an important meeting he should be treating seriously - it's his life on the line after all. In SIB he's been grabbed from his home against his will so I can understand him being deliberately childish.