Sherlock (the BBC character)

[Carol the Dabbler]

Then you would have to find a body with an identical mark, or tattoo.

 

Nope, you just add it. Especially if it's a tattoo.

 

Anything added would be easily recognized by the authopsy. Just saying. :D

 

Unless -- it was added before?  Horrible thought, but perhaps Irene kept a body double on her payroll, for just such eventualities.  Come to think of it, did we see Kate again, after Irene "died"?

[T.o.b.y]

Kate didn't look like her at all so I think she is safe.

 

I think Irene was able to fool Sherlock by, as several of you have pointed out, creating the expectation that she was dead. Then in the morgue, he saw what he had expected to see (I will call this the Baskerville effect and write a paper on it :-P). And Sherlock is arrogant and very sure of himself, he said it was her right away, at one glance, without properly examining the body. All Irene would have needed was a dead woman with a very similar body type and skin color.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Kate didn't look like her at all so I think she is safe.

 

But are you talking about not-her-face?

[Inge l-w]

In my honest opinion, the whole sequence was a trial run for TGG substitution of bodies. As dear J.P. is so fond of saying, crafty Moftissess , especially since she was practically on Sherlock's lap before moving to the overstuffed chair, where he couldn't deduce her.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Kate didn't look like her at all so I think she is safe.

 

But are you talking about not-her-face?

 

 

:D Yu-p. Kate is shorter, to begin with, has a different complexion and a different body type. Not even I would mistake her corpse for Irene's.

 

[Arcadia]

You got all that with one look? ;) The only thing I remember about Kate is that she was anorexically thin. But I've always said I'd make a lousy detective.

[Carol the Dabbler]

She never struck me as unusually thin, just kinda sexy!

[Arcadia]

I don't mean unusually thin, exactly, just supermodel thin. (Which is too thin, imo, but hey.) But I might not even be remembering that correctly. She didn't make that much of an impression on me, evidently. I remember the lady who took John to the power station better.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I thought Irene looked more anorexic when she first walked into the wardrobe.

 

Anyway, I don't think it's Kate or if Irene was willing to sacrifice her. She seems to know who Irene and what she is capable of doing. I also have impression that they have some kind of relationship and she is the right hand woman.

But then again, maybe you are right, it is handy to have a body double within reach and readily available..

[Arcadia]

Pseud and I found something new to fight about, yay! :P
 

I also need Holmes to be incredibly intelligent. Part of the reason I went off Elementary is because most of his 'insights,' when they bother to show them, aren't all that clever. It makes him just another maverick detective and takes away what makes him so interesting in the first place. It's also why the idea that Sherlock is the Holmes family idiot annoys me so much in season 4.

Would it help if I pointed out that the only one who thinks he's the family idiot is Sherlock himself? Who's known to be a little harsh with himself at times....

 

Not really, since Mycroft was analysed as being exceptional, Eurus was Incandescent (they were both something like that anyway) and Sherlock... not mentioned. Was he assessed and they went 'meh, he's nothing special?'

I will head to the Sherlock thread and lay out my counter-argument.

Here's the quote Pseud's referring to:
MYCROFT (gesturing between himself and his brother while looking at John): You realise I’m the smart one?
SHERLOCK: As you never cease to announce.
MYCROFT: ... but Eurus, she was incandescent even then. Our abilities were professionally assessed more than once. I was remarkable, but Eurus was described as an era-defining genius, beyond Newton.

And here's my counter-argument: Just because Sherlock doesn't test out as smart as the other two doesn't make him the family idiot. Mycroft, for one, thinks Sherlock is smart enough to fool even him at times. I think this is just the big brother being smug in order to needle the little brother.

Pseud, your turn.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Since that scene aired, I always took it to mean that Sherlock had the lowest iq of the siblings not that he had a low iq. But I do like that later Mummy reminds Sherlock that he was always the grownup one of the kids (despite is petulant childish ways).

[Arcadia]

Yeah, if Sherlock was "always" the grown up, imagine the tantrums Mycroft must have thrown! :d

 

What do we suppose Mummy meant by that, anyway? Other than to stab Mycroft where it hurt, that is. I'm thinking it's Mycroft's need to control everyone and everything that Mummy finds immature, whereas Sherlock is more content to let people go their own way? Also Sherlock has more of a sense of humor, I think.

[Pseudonym]

I have a turn? I was busy trekking to the post office, but now I have returned... hm, let's see. I agree he's smart, genius by normal people standards, but not by Holmes standards since out of the three kids he's the thickest. Not to say he is an idiot in general, but out of three of them he's the one who gets the dunce cap. I don't know about Papa Holmes, he seems bumbling and slow but I suspect there's a lot more to him than meets the eye. 

 

I wonder if their parents took Sherlock to therapy when they saw him changing and realised how clearly traumatised he was. Did he just refuse to talk to anyone about it, or was he never taken? Were they so overwhelmed by their own horror and loss that he kind of slipped under the radar?

 

Not quite sure how Sherlock is the grown up. 

[gerry]

Not quite sure how Sherlock is the grown up.

Ditto. That line never made sense to me. Mycroft has been shown as a lot more mature than sherlock.

[J.P.]

As for Sherlock's IQ - I suspected that he might be smart, but most of his "geniality" is the hard work he put into trying to be as good as Mycroft. But if I was Wanda I'd refuse to say this line - it makes absolutely no sense. <_<

[Arcadia]

I have a turn? I was busy trekking to the post office, but now I have returned... hm, let's see. I agree he's smart, genius by normal people standards, but not by Holmes standards since out of the three kids he's the thickest. Not to say he is an idiot in general, but out of three of them he's the one who gets the dunce cap. I don't know about Papa Holmes, he seems bumbling and slow but I suspect there's a lot more to him than meets the eye.

Maybe he's the one who, like Sherlock, is emotionally intelligent. But doesn't hide it.

 

I wonder if their parents took Sherlock to therapy when they saw him changing and realised how clearly traumatised he was. Did he just refuse to talk to anyone about it, or was he never taken? Were they so overwhelmed by their own horror and loss that he kind of slipped under the radar?

At that age, I'm wondering how effective therapy could be anyway. Any child psychologists here? I would think it would be more about making sure he grew up to be a confident, fearless, functioning adult than anything. High-functioning. :P

 

Not quite sure how Sherlock is the grown up.

I guess no one likes my theory   --- that he's the adult because he's not trying to control everyone and everything and doesn't spy on his brother? Fine, I'll just go sulk in the corner.

 

Anyway, being the least smart one in the family still doesn't make him the family idiot, unless you're an immature little prick like Mycroft who can't resist rubbing his nose in it. :D

 

As for Sherlock's IQ - I suspected that he might be smart, but most of his "geniality" is the hard work he put into trying to be as good as Mycroft. But if I was Wanda I'd refuse to say this line - it makes absolutely no sense. <_<

By "geniality" I'm guessing you mean his brilliance? (I don't think there's a way to add an "ality" to "genius" in English. Can't think of one.... Genius-ness??) I agree, I think he worked hard to get where he is ... after all, he built that huge mind palace! Plus he gets out in the world and actually looks at people and things, which Mycroft can't be bothered to do.

 

Also there's Sherlock's remark about Mycroft not being as strong as he thinks ... another indication that Mycroft is so immature that he thinks he is invulnerable.

 

Yes, I know, I'm really reaching here....

[Pseudonym]

I'm just thinking a bloke who shoots walls, yells and sulks when he's bored is not exactly a mature and well developed adult. 

 

If he's thicker than the rest of his family how does that not make him the idiot?

[Arcadia]

Well, because when Mycroft's bored he starts wars and has people assassinated??

 

Because, er, um ... semantics. :p

[Pseudonym]

I better be careful then, or maybe I'll be walked down the road, minding by own business, and get jabbed with a poisoned umbrella. 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

My take: Sherlock had a certain maturity that made him more grown up and then something happened throwing it all on its head. That might have been the Victor incident or something else later on. Possibly even the negative effects of drugs.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Not quite sure how Sherlock is the grown up.

Ditto. That line never made sense to me. Mycroft has been shown as a lot more mature than sherlock.

 

I'm just thinking a bloke who shoots walls, yells and sulks when he's bored is not exactly a mature and well developed adult. 

 

If he's thicker than the rest of his family how does that not make him the idiot?

 

My current theory is that Mycroft is considered both more intelligent and more mature because he is more (for lack of a far better word) normal.  He answers IQ tests the way they're supposed to be answered.  He behaves in socially-acceptable ways.  He is the more socialized of the two.

 

Imagine that Sherlock is faced with this general-knowledge question:

 

Mr. Spock is a

 

A. Human

B. Klingon

C. Romulan

D. Vulcan

 

Unlike Mycroft (who would put D because that's supposed to be correct), Sherlock would claim that none of the answers are entirely correct (because Spock is half human and half Vulcan), would therefore refuse to answer it, and that point would be deducted from his score.  Also, Sherlock is clearly more imaginative, and might see certain answers as correct in ways that had never occurred to the test designers.

 

Similarly with maturity: Mycroft knows how one is supposed to behave.  He's polite as all get-out -- but he's not necessarily being considerate, he's merely being correct.  I think Sherlock is more empathetic, and therefore has a greater capacity for being considerate.  (The fact that he often uses his empathy to target people's soft spots may be unfortunate, but he does seem to be improving.)

[Arcadia]

I better be careful then, or maybe I'll be walked down the road, minding by own business, and get jabbed with a poisoned umbrella.

 

No, you'll just be kidnapped by a pretty woman and taken to an unknown location and "interrogated". On the orders of a man with a poisoned umbrella.

 

My take: Sherlock had a certain maturity that made him more grown up and then something happened throwing it all on its head. That might have been the Victor incident or something else later on. Possibly even the negative effects of drugs.

 

Okay, I agree the drug use is hardly a sign of maturity. Maybe Mummy doesn't know about that. (I know Mycroft threatened to tell The Parents, but maybe it's just a threat.)

 

 

 

Not quite sure how Sherlock is the grown up.

Ditto. That line never made sense to me. Mycroft has been shown as a lot more mature than sherlock.

 

 

I'm just thinking a bloke who shoots walls, yells and sulks when he's bored is not exactly a mature and well developed adult. 

 

If he's thicker than the rest of his family how does that not make him the idiot?

 

My current theory is that Mycroft is considered both more intelligent and more mature because he is more (for lack of a far better word) normal.  He answers IQ tests the way they're supposed to be answered.  He behaves in socially-acceptable ways.  He is the more socialized of the two.

 

Imagine that Sherlock is faced with this general-knowledge question:

 

Mr. Spock is a

 

A. Human

B. Klingon

C. Romulan

D. Vulcan

 

Unlike Mycroft (who would put D because that's supposed to be correct), Sherlock would claim that none of the answers are entirely correct (because Spock is half human and half Vulcan), would therefore refuse to answer it, and that point would be deducted from his score.  Also, Sherlock is clearly more imaginative, and might see certain answers as correct in ways that had never occurred to the test designers.

 

Similarly with maturity: Mycroft knows how one is supposed to behave.  He's polite as all get-out -- but he's not necessarily being considerate, he's merely being correct.  I think Sherlock is more empathetic, and therefore has a greater capacity for being considerate.  (The fact that he often uses his empathy to target people's soft spots may be unfortunate, but he does seem to be improving.)

 

 

Actually, I think both of them would answer "Who the hell is Mr. Spock?" :D

 

I think Sherlock knows full well how he's supposed to behave, he just chooses to pretend he doesn't, unless it suits his purposes. I think he enjoys shocking people; it's fun (in an ... ahem ... immature sort of way) and sometimes putting them off guard helps him tell what they're really thinking.

[Pseudonym]

Yup, ditto the 'who the hell is Mr Spock.' And yup, Sherlock knows ho to act because he can sham it so well, he's just not interested in doing it for real, and who wouldn't get a bit of a kick out of just saying whatever they want to people without bothering with a filter?

[gerry]

who wouldn't get a bit of a kick out of just saying whatever they want to people without bothering with a filter?

Mature empathetic adults who treat people with respect?

[Pseudonym]

Yowch.