The Johnlock Conspiracy

[Fantasy Lover]

Wow, that was actually beautiful. If you want to know more why representation matters, why queerbaiting is harmful and insulting, read this post: http://markwatches.net/reviews/2015/07/mark-watches-supernatural-s10e21-dark-dynasty/. It's written by Mark Oshiro, a gay man who reviews books and TV shows, and this is one of his reviews.

[J.P.]

Sorry, you are telling me I should be enraged because you are enraged about the makers not making their show what you wanted it to be. I'm not. You have attached your hope to the wrong thing and now you are blaming everyone but yourself. You've been warned. Many, many times.

 

I have my own issue with the series that is surprisingly similar to yours.

 

As a gray ace I cannot even tell I have a representation in the outside world, and "normal" people don't believe we even EXIST. As I came out, the response was like "you should try it with a woman", coming from a gay friend. I'm living in a world where one's worth is so strongly linked to sexual attractivity, that some people think it's the same. I know how it is to be an outsider.

 

But does it give me any right to demand any special treatment? Do I go and yell at Mofftiss they should make Sherlock clearly asexual because I need representation in media? Sorry, this is just stupid.

 

People go suicidal about many things. DON'T YOU DARE to blame the makers. Blame another conspiracy theorists that made those vulnerable souls believe in something that was not about to happen. And don't try to come with the queerbaiting arguments. We've seen them all already, and as non-Johnlockers are as unwilling to acknowledge them, as you are unwilling to accept ours.

 

I'm not going to be nice to you, as you are not nice to me.

Go fu** myself? Any time, dear. A-ny time.

 

Go and start a crowdfunding for a gay Sherlock show. This would be a constructive reaction.

[Pseudonym]

Okay, I was going to stay out of this, but I can't. First of all, I am sorry that you are upset Fantasy Lover and that you feel betrayed by the show. 

However, I agree with J.P. wholeheartedly, which is why I have to say something. I also identify as something very close to grey ace - which is why it bothered me when John was egging Sherlock on to be with Irene, as if he had to be with someone in order to be normal. But I didn't go off on a rant about it, I didn't start telling people to F themselves, because the show isn't about representation, and it never promised to be. In fact I don't see how Mark could have been any clearer that Johnlock wasn't going to happen. 

I don't like people being upset, I don't like conflict, but putting all of your faith in something that the writer had said he wasn't going to write, it was bound to end in disappointment and anger. Yes, I wish there was more representation, of course I do, and not just for yourself but for people like me and J.P. too, but Sherlock was never going to be that and never promised to be. Just because Mark is gay it doesn't mean he has to write gay characters. 

I don't like the fact you came in here treating us all as if we are the enemy - but I get that you are hurt and upset and needed to vent. I don't want to escalate this into a big argument, talking calmly and rationally about it is much more productive, but there are other opinions out there and other orientations, and we all have different views on things. I can't agree with you about being angry that Johnlock didn't happen, as I said in a previous post I'm relieved Sherlock didn't suddenly hook up with someone - be that person male or female. 

So. Yea. There's my two pence thrown into the mix. Can we please try not to turn this lovely, open forum into the type of mud-slinging seen so many other places?

[Fantasy Lover]

So, you are telling me I should be enraged because you are enraged about the makers not making their show what you wanted it to be. I'm not. You have attached your hope to the wrong thing and now you are blaming everyone but yourself. You've been warned. Many, many times.

I didn't said that, I NEVER said that. Also, they could have been lying.

I have my own issue with the series that is surprisingly similar to yours.

 

As a gray ace I cannot even tell I have a representation in the outside world, and "normal" people don't believe we even EXIST. As I came out, the response was like "you should try it with a woman", coming from a gay friend. I'm living in a world where one's worth is so strongly linked to sexual attractivity, that some people think it's the same. I know how it is to be an outsider.

 

But does it give me any right to demand any special treatment? Do I go and yell at Mofftiss they should make Sherlock clearly asexual because I need representation in media? Sorry, this is just stupid..

I'm sorry you went through that, I really am.

People go suicidal about many things. DON'T YOU DARE to blame the makers. Blame another conspiracy theorists that made those vulnerable souls believe in something that was not about to happen. And don't try to come with the queerbaiting arguments. We've seen them all already, and as non-Johnlockers are as unwilling to acknowledge them, as you are unwilling to accept ours.

listen, this show has been analysed by COUNTLESS people, people who KNOW stuff about acting and making shows and God knows what else, and they all pointed to the same thing: canon johnlock. That's what this all about.

[J.P.]

You are actually proving my point, FL.

 

I'm tired of handling angry JLers with velvet gloves. I'm sick of their negativity. I'm sick of neglecting facts and blaming others. I'm sick of emotional blackmailing.

 

Yes it's a beeping show. I'ts fiction. What you do with it is your fu***g problem.

The makers are responsible for what they said and wrote, not for how some people interpreted it, to fit to their wishful thinking.

 

I'ts such a disservice to the LGBT comunity.

There are enough people outside, thinking gay people are loonies who want to inflict their way of live on others. Now they get the perfect amunition.

[Fantasy Lover]

Well, forgive for wanting the first gay Sherlock adaption and forcing my sexuality down your throat. Oh, wait. I'm not.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Moderator Comment:

OK, folks, FL has vented rather forcefully, and JP has vented rather forcefully. You've each made some good points, and I'd say you're about even. So can we all please calm down, discuss instead of blame, and cut way back on the F-words? Thanks.

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

 

Regarding the sexual orientation of their villains, ... I believe you're over-generalizing. Jim Moriarty may have been gay (as Sherlock thought) or may have been straight (as Molly thought) or may simply have been using sex as a tool to manipulate people. I tend toward the third interpretation since it's consistent with his overall MO. Irene is gay, but is not exactly a villain. And as for Euros, she seems to be a sexual predator who considers the gender of her victims to be totally irrelevant. I would consider it an insult to gays to classify her among them.

1. Maybe Moriarty was bisexual, who knows? 2. Irene wasn't wholly good either was she? I mean she blackmailed people. 3. I agree that it's an insult to gay people.

1. Jim might be gay, or he might be bi, or he might just be yanking Sherlock's chain. We seriously do not know his sexual orientation (unless "manipulative" counts).

 

2. Sherlock isn't entirely good either -- he killed CAM in cold blood. I see Irene as more of an antagonist than an actual villain (though I will admit that her cooperation with Moriarty is a strike against her).

 

3. What is your basis for describing Eurus as gay? All I can remember is her saying that she had sex once, but doesn't know the gender of the other person because there wasn't much left of them. Seems to me that either a straight or a gay would consider the gender very important, and while a bi might not care, they would surely be aware of it. Eurus sounds more like someone who gets her "sexual" thrills out of torturing people to death. Are you sure you want to claim her as one of your own?

 

By my count, that's one possibly-gay villain, one definitely-gay antagonist, and one sexually warped nutcase.

[J.P.]

Carol, I understand your concern. The forum shouldn't be a battlefield.

 

On the other hand we cannot be always civil, and kind, and understanding to those who come, throw F***S around, insult us and demand that we think like them. I'm tired of turning the other cheek.

 

Don't waste your time on repeating the arguments. We have tried long enough.

 

It's not only Johnlock. Apparently there are some crazy über-feminists massively attacking Loo for how Molly turns out in TFP. Can you imagine that? The director apparently closed his Twitter. What will be next? People throwing eggs at Mark? Death threats?

 

It's no wonder that the fandom is seen as a bunch of sickos. I think I will need a new T-shirt: I'm a Sherlock fan. And no, I won't attack you.

 

[Inge l-w]

Which all proves the point that dear Caya was trying to make: never take TV fiction for real life! I follow PlaidAdder on tumblr, as well as loudest-subtext-on-television, and, boy oh boy, has the latter received so much aggravation for her meta-analysis of the first two seasons! The same goes for Anarfea, who is not only lesbian but black as well, so has had to battle against a double negative all her adulthood, but prefers to write about Sherlock/Mycroft, and dear Ozymanreis, who is a firm Sheriarity supporter, a talented writer and a very intelligent human being, half Japanese and gay. The last has had to contend for years against the massive pressure of the JL community. Cyber bullying doesn't even begin to describe what talented, expressive people who got hooked on the show have had to go through.

If the time has come for the deliberate liars (vid. Messers Moffat and Gatiss ) to feel some of the heat that they were on the receiving end of at the end of S1, then it may all turn out to the good. Everyone keeps learning throughout their lives.

As for ma petite Aurelie, I sincerely suggest going on to the BBC website and lodging a formal, polite and firm complaint. They are all taken seriously, if they are properly worded. Simply log on to the BBC site, find the complaint link, and register her dissatisfaction for feeling that she has been led down the garden path by the creators. Actions always speak louder than words!

[J.P.]

And maybe even more important: never take YOUR fiction for real life!

[Carol the Dabbler]

... we cannot be always civil, and kind, and understanding to those who come, throw F***S around, insult us and demand that we think like them. I'm tired of turning the other cheek.

 

J.P., I understand your frustration. But let me point out that *you* are the one who came here. This is explicitly the Johnlock thread. If you do not care to discuss the issue, it's a simple matter of avoiding this thread.

 

That's why I split off the Political Thread -- I was tired of going to the Speedy's thread only to find more @#$&% politics!

[J.P.]

Carol, I've been here a lot. We've been discussing TJLC, not necessarily endorsing it. If people, who come to vent, read through the posts, they would notice that.

 

If there are members on this board who want to share their enthusiasm for JL, and feel they don't have a save place to do it, an explicit thread would make sense.

[Carol the Dabbler]

J.P., this thread is called The Johnlock Conspiracy. I don't see how it could be much more explicit than that.

 

No, hostile ranting and swearing are not encouraged on this forum. Yes, people have been discussing the matter from various perspectives. But the fact that some people have used this thread to disparage and sometimes openly ridicule the theory does not give the skeptics ownership of the thread. It's still open to anyone who is willing to discuss the matter with people of all perspectives.

[Fantasy Lover]

What is your basis for describing Eurus as gay? All I can remember is her saying that she had sex once, but doesn't know the gender of the other person because there wasn't much left of them. Seems to me that either a straight or a gay would consider the gender very important, and while a bi might not care, they would surely be aware of it. Eurus sounds more like someone who gets her "sexual" thrills out of torturing people to death. Are you sure you want to claim her as one of your own?

 

By my count, that's one possibly-gay villain, one definitely-gay antagonist, and one sexually warped nutcase.

Didn't she said something about having sex with a female? And no, I don't want to claim her.

 

Which all proves the point that dear Caya was trying to make: never take TV fiction for real life! I follow PlaidAdder on tumblr, as well as loudest-subtext-on-television, and, boy oh boy, has the latter received so much aggravation for her meta-analysis of the first two seasons!

I saw that, poor things. There's nothing more disheartening then throwing your heart in something for years only to find out you were wrong.

 

As for ma petite Aurelie, I sincerely suggest going on to the BBC website and lodging a formal, polite and firm complaint. They are all taken seriously, if they are properly worded. Simply log on to the BBC site, find the complaint link, and register her dissatisfaction for feeling that she has been led down the garden path by the creators. Actions always speak louder than words!

I did that.

[Carol the Dabbler]

She may have said something like that -- but I'm thinking she said she only had "sex" once, and doesn't know the gender.  I believe that whoever she was telling this to did ask her if it was with a man or with a woman, so that could be what you're remembering.

[Caya]

Plaidder quote-bot that I've apparently become, here we go:

 

 

 

In the bizarre conversation that Sherlock and Eurus have about sex, for instance, which serves no real purpose other than to make Eurus even stranger and more dangerous than she already seems, she implies that her first sexual partner/victim was a woman (before she says she didn’t know or care what gender she was).

 

So it's up in the air at least.

 

Veering off-topic for a moment (forgive me about this, please) ... Aurelie, have you ever heard about the It Gets Better Project? This is a wonderful collection of LGBT adults reaching out to LGBT youths (or, wishfully, their younger selves) and telling about their experiences growing up gay, how shitty it was, and how much better their lives have become as adults, better than they could ever have imagined back then. I don't want to delve too deeply into your private life, but it's clear that you're in a lot of pain right now, pain that I as a straight cis woman can empathize with but never quite understand. So I hope that listening to some of the folks who were once in your place might give you some hope.

 

As for LGBT representation in mainstream media, I promise, promise! this is the last time I'm coming back to Plaidder, but you might want to follow her tumblr and/or write a PM to her there. She's both been out and outspoken for decades, and as a lit teacher is both very critical and very well aware of a lot of cultural offerings. I'm sure she can point you in a direction where you can find the identification that Sherlock failed to provide. Yep, it sucks that you have to search for those with a roadmap and a flashlight, no doubt about it, but they *are* out there. /off-topic

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I promise, promise! this is the last time I'm coming back to Plaidder....

[J.P.]

J.P., this thread is called The Johnlock Conspiracy. I don't see how it could be much more explicit than that.

 

No, hostile ranting and swearing are not encouraged on this forum. Yes, people have been discussing the matter from various perspectives. But the fact that some people have used this thread to disparage and sometimes openly ridicule the theory does not give the skeptics ownership of the thread. It's still open to anyone who is willing to discuss the matter with people of all perspectives.

 

I meant a thread where we wouldn't bother them with discussion. It's an idea from another forum. Could work.

[Caya]

Forgive me, but that sounds a bit like shifting the blame to me.    "They don't like someone ridiculing their ship? Why don't they just go elsewhere then?"

 

How, instead, about: This thread is for constructive discussion of the Johnlock ship and TJLC. Folks who wish to earnestly weigh the merits and drawbacks of this theory are welcome here, no matter their ship. Merely expressing disbelief in or ridicule of said theory, however, is not constructive. Anyone who feels that TJLC never had any merit is certainly welcome to their opinion, but will probably therefore be bored by the discussion thereof anyway, and is thus very welcome to instead contribute to the countless other discussions which are in plentiful supply on this wonderful forum.

[J.P.]

 

Forgive me, but that sounds a bit like shifting the blame to me.    "They don't like someone ridiculing their ship? Why don't they just go elsewhere then?"

Does it come across like this? Sorry, it wasn't my intention.

[Inge l-w]

Which all goes to show what a quicksand pit English actually is! In real time, I would very much have liked to be able to use viber or Skype and call Caya, J.P., Aurelie, Carol and my favourite shadowy teddy bear, Arcadia, or my lovely fellow member SherlockedCamper, and ACTUALLY talk about things that bother me in the latest series, for example. Words on a screen can sometimes seem NOT me. I did it accidentally when I was having a debate with dear VBS on another thread, and I have to remind myself of the Latin proverb 'scripta manent', (writing remains, to non-Mycrofts here :D ) to avoid confrontational language, because, once posted, like THIS pale shadow of Culverton Smith says, they cannot be unsaid.

As a forty-year-old woman with children and a forty-two-year-old toddler at home, I cannot fully comprehend the anguish of young LGBT people, but I believe in freedom of expression first, foremost and above all!

[Fantasy Lover]

Veering off-topic for a moment (forgive me about this, please) ... Aurelie, have you ever heard about the It Gets Better Project? This is a wonderful collection of LGBT adults reaching out to LGBT youths (or, wishfully, their younger selves) and telling about their experiences growing up gay, how shitty it was, and how much better their lives have become as adults, better than they could ever have imagined back then. I don't want to delve too deeply into your private life, but it's clear that you're in a lot of pain right now, pain that I as a straight cis woman can empathize with but never quite understand. So I hope that listening to some of the folks who were once in your place might give you some hope.

I know about the project, but I just believe it anymore.

 

Which all goes to show what a quicksand pit English actually is! In real time, I would very much have liked to be able to use viber or Skype and call Caya, J.P., Aurelie, Carol and my favourite shadowy teddy bear, Arcadia, or my lovely fellow member SherkedCamper, and ACTUALLY talk about things that bother me in the latest series, for example. Words on a screen can sometimes seem NOT me. I did it accidentally when I was having a debate with dear VBS on another thread, and I have to remind myself of the Latin proverb 'scripta manent', (writing remains, to non-Mycrofts here :D ) to avoid confrontational language, because, once posted, like THIS pale shadow of Culverton Smith says, they cannot be unsaid.

I would love to do Skype call . There are SO MANY inconsistencies in this season.

 

As a forty-year-old woman with children and a forty-two-year-old toddler at home, I cannot fully comprehend the anguish of young LGBT people, but I believe in freedom of expression first, foremost and above all!

I kind of disagree with that. But that's because Trump is about to become president and abuses the freedom of expression to justify his racism, sexism and ableism.

[Caya]

As a forty-year-old woman with children and a forty-two-year-old toddler at home,

 

I think I'll need to borrow that one occasionally.

 

Aurelie, freedom of expression does not equal freedom of justified rebuttals and/or a guaranteed audience, much as the usual suspects would like the waters there, in my experience. Everybody is free to voice their opinion, but their audience is equally free to tell them they're morons / ignore them / throw them out of their pub and/or forum. <_<

 

What made you disbelieve in the IGB Project, if I may ask?

[Fantasy Lover]

I know that, but it saddens me that so many people think it does.

 

I Just don't think it ever gets better, that's all.