The Johnlock Conspiracy

[J.P.]

@Sh_Sharon

So you know better what they wanted to write. And now, they just changed their story and wrote it in a way they never intended to, right?

 

@Caya

Funny, because the only idea I've got from the series was, that others think the boys are a pair and Mr Hudson wishes they were a pair. That's it. And it's not that I haven't read any slash before, or have no gay friends.

 

And having a Johnlock-ey ideas is not what bothers me. Attacking writers and DEMANDING a certain outcome of the story - does a lot.

[Caya]

Sure, and I'm confident that there are viewers with their experience mirroring yours, J.P. - but to declare that the only imaginable interpretation, as Moftiss have done in interviews at times, is disingenuous imo. Also does their creation no favours either, I think - being multi-layered and open to varying interpretations is usually a welcomed trait in art of any kind.

[J.P.]

Usually in stories and movies when people behave like having a romantic interest in each other I assume they are in love.

When they don't I assume they aren't.

[Caya]

Sure, and yours is a perfectly valid interpretation (I'm sure there is some important-sounding philological term for it, too ). But it's hardly the only one out there, and good thing too, for both literary science and fanfiction sites would be a lot smaller in scope if it were. ;)

[Pseudonym]

I'm not sure why or when the gay joke became such a thing, they used to do it as a recurring joke in Supernatural too, have people assuming because two guys were on the road together they must be gay. I don't know who these people are that assume any two men who are working and living in close proximity to each other must be gay, seems a bit backwards. If Sherlock and John lived next to me I would assume they were flatmates unless I saw something to lead me to think otherwise. If Sam and Dean pulled up at a motel where I was working reception I would assume they were just two blokes on a road trip.  

 

Of course, that's just referring to the writers and the recurring joke. As to what viewers see in the episodes, I don't think I saw any Johnlockery on first viewings, but knowing that some people do I can see multiple scenes both ways. My issue was never with people seeing Johnlock moments, it was in the vitriol and insistence that it had to be written in as a definite, and the stubbornness that it is going to happen despite all claims to the contrary. 

 

I like Johnlock in fanworks, but (imo) it would be a bit weird in the show. I appreciate that Sherlock is ambiguous; might be gay, might be straight, might be asexual. It's so refreshing to have a main character who doesn't have to have an explicit romantic entanglement to 'round out his character.' That is what I appreciate about Sherlock, and I actually applaud the writers for choosing to do that and sticking with it (so far) - so many series have a character who starts out stating they are disinterested in sex and relationships, only to have them suddenly becoming horndogs later in the series. I like that Sherlock doesn't do that, even when faced with Irene it's debatable whether his interest is physical or merely intellectual. Having Sherlock in a relationship in the show, whether that be with Irene Adler, Molly Hooper, John or anyone else would be incredibly off-putting to me, it would detract from him as a primarily logical, intellectual character to give him the same base urges as everyone else. That being said, I do love my Johnlock fic :D

 

[Inge l-w]

Yep! And after yesterday's Titanic-versus-iceberg episode, with the plot being the Titanic, adding Mary's last exhortation to the boys, it's open season for everything except JohnLockary and all versions of Moriarty, except in retrospect.

[Boton]

 

 

I like Johnlock in fanworks, but (imo) it would be a bit weird in the show. I appreciate that Sherlock is ambiguous; might be gay, might be straight, might be asexual. It's so refreshing to have a main character who doesn't have to have an explicit romantic entanglement to 'round out his character.' That is what I appreciate about Sherlock, and I actually applaud the writers for choosing to do that and sticking with it (so far) - so many series have a character who starts out stating they are disinterested in sex and relationships, only to have them suddenly becoming horndogs later in the series. I like that Sherlock doesn't do that, even when faced with Irene it's debatable whether his interest is physical or merely intellectual. Having Sherlock in a relationship in the show, whether that be with Irene Adler, Molly Hooper, John or anyone else would be incredibly off-putting to me, it would detract from him as a primarily logical, intellectual character to give him the same base urges as everyone else. That being said, I do love my Johnlock fic :D

 

I agree.  I know we aren't supposed to get too much into the new season here, so I will just say that what I truly wanted was a show that "ended" on a note that allowed for fan shipping but didn't really mandate it. Once I've got a resolution that leaves open a ton of possibilities (including more episodes or specials), then I'm happy for fan fiction to follow up on all the ships.  Bring em on!  I just want the show-canon to be as close to the original ACD Holmes and Watson as is practical in 2017.

[Pseudonym]

Yup, I agree totally. I tried to steer away from anything relating to season 4 but 

I think the slightly open ending was perfect - allows for shipping but doesn't force anything on anyone.

 

[J.P.]

I don't know who these people are that assume any two men who are working and living in close proximity to each other must be gay, seems a bit backwards.

To me it looks almost like a nod to obsessive shippers. Those who automaticly would ship EVERYONE, included the whole male population of LOTR characters, despite sizes and ages and obvious preferences. :D

 

It's like the shippers' version of golf, not only seeing but making everyone gay.

One of the Universe's unanswered mysteries.

 

[Caya]

Darlings, the forum rules (right now, after airing) are no S4 spoilers yet except for in the episode threats, and no, spoiler boxes do not void this rule!

 

I'll happily restore your discussion once the strict phase of the no spoiler rule has passed, but as for now, Pseud's first post came very, very close to spoiler territory but was arguably worded ambiguously enough, but then you all jumped over the line and never looked back.

[J.P.]

Oh, gosh, sorry. It's my OCD making me put all the topics into their own drawers. I try to be better, promise!

[T.o.b.y]

No worries, J.P. I like to tidy up the threads myself. It's just that we assume not everyone has had a chance to see the new episodes yet and we don't want to spoil people. Okay? Once a little time has passed, we'll clean this place up. I promise. :lol:

[Boton]

Yeah, sorry about that.  Wasn't aware of the spoiler box non-exception.  It wasn't a mission-critical discussion anyway.   ;)

[Caya]

No problem, that's what we're here for. The spoiler box rule is because of the fact that a thread getting activity often constitutes a spoiler in and of itself. Imagine, say [false spoiler ahead, just for illustration], your coming to the forum before having seen the latest episode, and find that the Irene Adler thread has suddenly sprouted six brand new pages since yesterday. Spoiler boxes or no, you might reasonably suspect something about that episode at that point. ;)

[Pseudonym]

Oops, I thought in spoiler boxes was okay too. Sorry 

[Arcadia]

Would you all like me to move said spoilers to the TFP thread? Or just leave it be until we're allowed to post them here? If last time is anything to go by, that could take awhile.

[Pseudonym]

I'd vote for moving 'em.

[Arcadia]

Yeah, that makes sense to me too. I'll come back and do a little house cleaning in a bit.
 
Okay, it's done. If you're looking for the discussion about shipping and if/how it does/doesn't relate to The Final Problem, it starts here: http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/3549-episode-43-the-final-problem/?p=114296 and jumps around a bit, but I've tried to link it together.

[Fantasy Lover]

I disagree with ALL OF YOU!

 

Last morning I woke up and I saw that LGBT people on my Tumblr dash were depressed to the point of self harming and CONSIDERING SUICIDE!!!

 

And don't you dare tell me it's our fault, DON'T YOU F***ING DARE! This is their fault, THEY made a joke of our sexuality! That's right I'm gay, and I never felt so betrayed in my ENTIRE LIFE!

 

And don't you dare tell me that Mark Gatiss doesn't owe us representation, DON'T YOU F***ING DARE! This isn't about Mark owing us representation, this is about writers and media DENYING us representation and turning our sexuality to a JOKE!

 

Do you realise how shitty it is to be gay? DO YOU?! Well allow me to enlighten you: it's lonely, you constantly see other people given happy endings while people like yourself are being used to attract more viewers and or only feature in drama's with a unhappy ending.

 

The fact that all of you are fine with no canon Johnlock enrages me to no end GO F*** YOURSELF!

 

rant over

[Caya]

Wow, where to start ...

 

Okay, first of all, thank you for coming out to us, as it were. Yeah, should be that this ain't no thang, but unfortunately, it still is, even in this day and age. Let me say, on behalf of Tim and the entire mod team, that any and all sexual orientations are equally welcomed here, and please let us know if we unwittingly fall short of that (even straight allies can be tone-deaf and clueless at times, I'm aware of that).

 

eta: Okay, armed with the vocabulary now (I hope). So, second, no, unfortunately as a straight person you honestly can't really know how it is to be gay, so I am fully aware that, even as we're cheering our gay friends on, we're watching this battle from the sidelines. Still, it's hard to miss the "bury your gays" trope even when straight (Plaidder, and yes I know I keep linking to her, wrote about this in light of a different show recently) and it must be infuriating if that's your own tribe, so to speak. Let me add that, and yes I realize that this is in a completely different ballpark, as a fat woman I am all too familiar with the feeling of generally being only represented in popular culture as comic relief and/or the "how not to", and never seem to be seen as deserving of a happy ending of your own. It sucks, big time.

 

Third, though, and this is what I'm having a hard time putting into words that will hopefully not hurt you any further, having hoped for Johnlock as the endgame was, ah screw it, I'm gonna chicken out and go cite Plaidder again (who has the distinct advantage of being an out-and-proud lesbian herself),

 

"I am a tad pissed off on the TJLCers’ behalf. TJLC is not unfounded. But it was always, I believe, based on a sadly overoptimistic assessment of Moffat and Gatiss, in terms of their abilities, their objectives, and their generosity to the fans."

 

Which is, fourth, why I'm not censoring both your and my post, as I should according to our spoiler policies. But I'm presuming here that anyone who had any investment, personal or otherwise, into the JohnLock Canon theory, is by now aware of how things went. My heart goes out to all of you who really believed that could happen, and are now hurt that it didn't, but I'm with Plaidder in that it comes as no real surprise.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Okay,

I won't tell you all the things you ask us not to say.

But I also won't go F*ck myself because it's tedious and I'm not in the mood.

 

You can believe me or not: I'm not treating my response here as a joke, I am actually very serious because I can see how upset you are, and I want to help, it's just I'm not good at comforting people or communicate that way. Sometimes I can make things worse too but I really don't mean that, so bear with me.

 

If you want to, tell us why you think they make your orientation as a joke, maybe by venting you could feel better, I don't know. I can't promise you that everyone would understand it the same way, and it's your right not to read responses because as everywhere and everything out there, not everyone can agree on the same thing, and that is natural. As long as it's respectful, I believe everyone tries to, everyone has the same right to air their views, whether it's agreeable or not.

 

And if you feel, in any way, that you are treated unfairly here, and it's uncomfortable to voice it publicly, let someone you think you can trust know, like the moderators. I believe there is always a way out to communicate about it. This place may not be an ideal place you want, but it's the friendliest forum I have been, and no one should feel left out, not only you, everyone, including others who has different views.

[Fantasy Lover]

 

If you want to, tell us why you think they make your orientation as a joke, maybe by venting you could feel better, I don't know. I can't promise you that everyone would understand it the same way, and it's your right not to read responses because as everywhere and everything out there, not everyone can agree on the same thing, and that is natural. As long as it's respectful, I believe everyone tries to, everyone has the same right to air their views, whether it's agreeable or not.

All the times John said he wasn't gay, and gay being used as a punchline. And three villains who were coded as gay: Moriarty, Irene and Euros.

 

Really? WE are the bad guys? It's 2017 FFS! The "all gay people are evil" trope needs to die! Together with the bury your gays trope, gay people want to get in your pants and queerbaiting.

 

My sexuality ISN'T a joke! I did not ask to be this way. I'm scared to come out to my family because I'm afraid I will be kicked out.

 

Mark Gatiss should know better than this. I mean, he witnessed the AIDS/HIV panic during this 80's. This is the guy that said that the fight for LGBT rights isn't over. And I'm supposed to believe that he deliberately queerbaited AN ENTIRE AUDIENCE?

 

To say I'm disappointed is an understatement, I was looking forward to see canon Johnlock. It made the awfulness of 2016 bearable, it would have Trump's inauguration bearable. What am I supposed to do now? I can't, I just can't *gross sobbing*

[Carol the Dabbler]

All the times John said he wasn't gay, and gay being used as a punchline. And three villains who were coded as gay: Moriarty, Irene and Euros.

 

I can certainly see your point rewgarding all the "I'm not gay" jokes. They seem to have been *intended* as a commentary on the readers who have, over the years, assumed that Conan Doyle intended his characters to be gay, merely because they walked arm in arm and addressed each other as "my dear," both of which were common behavior among all Victorian gentlemen. Unfortunately Moftiss failed to realize ahead of time (as they really should have) that their jokes could be interpreted by current-day audiences as queerbaiting.

 

Regarding the sexual orientation of their villains, however, I believe you're over-generalizing. Jim Moriarty may have been gay (as Sherlock thought) or may have been straight (as Molly thought) or may simply have been using sex as a tool to manipulate people. I tend toward the third interpretation since it's consistent with his overall MO. Irene is gay, but is not exactly a villain. And as for Euros, she seems to be a sexual predator who considers the gender of her victims to be totally irrelevant. I would consider it an insult to gays to classify her among them.

[Fantasy Lover]

I can certainly see your point regarding all the "I'm not gay" jokes. They seem to have been *intended* as a commentary on the readers who have, over the years, assumed that Conan Doyle intended his characters to be gay, merely because they walked arm in arm and addressed each other as "my dear," both of which were common behavior among all Victorian gentlemen. Unfortunately Moftiss failed to realize ahead of time (as they really should have) that their jokes could be interpreted by current-day audiences as queerbaiting.

I literally don't care about that. They could have done the same thing as Guy Ritchie.

Regarding the sexual orientation of their villains, however, I believe you're over-generalizing. Jim Moriarty may have been gay (as Sherlock thought) or may have been straight (as Molly thought) or may simply have been using sex as a tool to manipulate people. I tend toward the third interpretation since it's consistent with his overall MO. Irene is gay, but is not exactly a villain. And as for Euros, she seems to be a sexual predator who considers the gender of her victims to be totally irrelevant. I would consider it an insult to gays to classify her among them.

1. Maybe Moriarty was bisexual, who knows? 2. Irene wasn't wholly good either was she? I mean she blackmailed people. 3. I agree that it's an insult to gay people.

[Van Buren Supernova]

All the times John said he wasn't gay, and gay being used as a punchline. And three villains who were coded as gay: Moriarty, Irene and Euros.

You see, I didn't really have good idea about you were so upset before. Now that you gave a bit of example, I give a lot more thought about it. I didn't know those could be so sensitive and hurtful, but now I can see they could. I live around fair share of colorful people around me; not as literally, but people with various insights and different ways to see the world. I tried to imagine being in your shoes and replayed some of the conversations I heard or had with them, and I can actually see why you are upset, because some things are indeed could be very hurtful.

 

The things is, most of the time people don't realize that they cross the line or being insensitive while they don't actually mean that. It sounds like idiots, but imho, it's really true. Some people are gifted with natural empathy but for the rest, it's learning curve. I learned my empathy through experiences and relate with things that had happened to me, but other than that, it's difficult for me sometimes to understand why people are upset. I am the one who run away when someone is crying, and stand there frighten when they need a hug, and as you probably saw around, I make fun of everything and everyone, but, I always, to my knowledge, never make fun of people insecurity, or things that matters. That is my principle and in my real life I don't hurt people with my jokes, because I only do those with people I know. But I could very well, and I'm sure had done it here, especially relate to this thread. And, believe me, I did it because I didn't understand, not because I want to hurt. And that could be, probably, what the show makers or others do.

 

You see, in online world, there are so many different types of people that no one really can understand properly because it's virtual world. There are destructive people, who troll around and say insensitive things but there are also honest misunderstandings, albeit bad ones, that could end up being hurtful without intending to. And even if Mark is gay, it doesn't always mean he went through the same thing with you, therefore have the same mindset with you, that also means he probably doesn't understand that his works is hurtful that way. I don't know that, that is my assumption. Because not only for gay community, actually, again, it's everywhere and everything. Even human to human, same race, age, background, orientation and history, they would probably still view world differently, hurt by different things and function in different way.

 

You probably know where I stand in Johnlock, and it still the same, but I am not here now typing to discuss about it. That is not what you need right now. I just want you to see that maybe, by expressing your view better, it helps people from another side to understand you better and understand themselves how not to be insensitive and harmless things for them might means something hurtful for others, and you to understand them, that sometimes, it could be unintentional.

 

So, if you see from your first post, it could be very difficult to get you, and to be honest, my first spilt-second response, I was all defensive, but then again I could see you are genuinely upset, it's not a made up, and it concerns me. Your second post, I could actually understand you much better and I think you could make your points across even much better if you can address it calmly and honestly about things that upset you. Don't worry, vent away if you want to, again, it's learning curve, but there is no need to treat us like enemies, because, mostly, we are not.

 

But since we are living in real world, you probably will always going to get responses that you don't like, it tends to always happen, otherwise, like Sherlock says, what a tender world that would be. We just need to keep learning to survive here, because that tender world doesn't exists.

And of course, your sexuality is not a joke, as religions, races and other social titles that we actually are better without.