Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"

[Boton]

 

I think HoB would have worked better later in the show. As it was, we were still getting used to the Sherlock-John relationship in some ways, so you didn't get quite the impact. (Although I found Sherlock's panic attack effective.)

That's how I felt about TRF the first time I saw it. I didn't feel like there'd really been enough episodes yet for me to feel the emotional impact of the fall like I wanted to. I don't know how it would have worked with the structure of the show to have it later though.

 

 

I think these are some of the cases in which it would really have helped to have 4-5 episodes per season/series rather than 3.  I feel like a lot of times we were supposed to simply infer how deeply the friendship was developing, and it is hard to do when we, the viewers, are only spending 4.5 hours every 2 years with the characters.

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

I think HoB would have worked better later in the show. As it was, we were still getting used to the Sherlock-John relationship in some ways, so you didn't get quite the impact. (Although I found Sherlock's panic attack effective.)

That's how I felt about TRF the first time I saw it. I didn't feel like there'd really been enough episodes yet for me to feel the emotional impact of the fall like I wanted to. I don't know how it would have worked with the structure of the show to have it later though.

 

 

I think these are some of the cases in which it would really have helped to have 4-5 episodes per season/series rather than 3.  I feel like a lot of times we were supposed to simply infer how deeply the friendship was developing, and it is hard to do when we, the viewers, are only spending 4.5 hours every 2 years with the characters.

 

 

Hmmm, I didn't have that problem at all... Maybe it's because I was already a Sherlock Holmes fan? Meaning, I already felt familiar with the characters, they're Holmes and Watson and that just comes with a certain relationship that I guess I took pretty much for granted.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hmmm, I didn't have that problem at all... Maybe it's because I was already a Sherlock Holmes fan? Meaning, I already felt familiar with the characters, they're Holmes and Watson and that just comes with a certain relationship that I guess I took pretty much for granted.

And Moftiss would have been coming from the same place.  So yeah, that makes sense.  Even though I had not yet read any of the original stories, I had adored the Jeremy Brett series, so I guess I was likewise predisposed.  And I had no problem "getting" TRF; on the contrary, it gave me goose bumps!

[Boton]

Yes, that makes sense.  Opposite of you ladies, Sherlock was my first Holmes (except for House, who I didn't realize was a Sherlock Holmes until I started watching Sherlock). So I wasn't sure of what sort of relationship I was supposed to expect from the two men, and it was hard for me to see this immovable friendship just from what I had seen on Sherlock.

 

ETA: It also might explain why my outrage is greatest for John shooting the cabbie, rather than for Mary shooting Sherlock, Sherlock shooting CAM, or John beating the tar out of Sherlock. I was just immediately appalled that someone would shoot a suspected criminal (even a serial suicide-prompter) for a roommate that he barely knows.  And I didn't have any "but this is Sherlock Holmes and John Watson!" filter to help me through.

[T.o.b.y]

Yes, that makes sense. Opposite of you ladies, Sherlock was my first Holmes (except for House, who I didn't realize was a Sherlock Holmes until I started watching Sherlock). So I wasn't sure of what sort of relationship I was supposed to expect from the two men, and it was hard for me to see this immovable friendship just from what I had seen on Sherlock.

 

ETA: It also might explain why my outrage is greatest for John shooting the cabbie, rather than for Mary shooting Sherlock, Sherlock shooting CAM, or John beating the tar out of Sherlock. I was just immediately appalled that someone would shoot a suspected criminal (even a serial suicide-prompter) for a roommate that he barely knows. And I didn't have any "but this is Sherlock Holmes and John Watson!" filter to help me through.

Well, Doyle's Watson wouldn't have done that I think. He gets shot once but I don't remember him shooting anybody, when Moran makes his attempt on Holmes' life, they just wrestle with him.

 

As for beating the crap out of Sherlock, the good doctor would never have dreamed of such a thing. If Holmes was being particularly mean, he might shed a few tears and complain a little but that was it. Freeman's John is very different from Victorian Dr Watson! But I like him. I like them both. Still, it's Sherlock Holmes I am in love with.

[Boton]

 

As for beating the crap out of Sherlock, the good doctor would never have dreamed of such a thing. If Holmes was being particularly mean, he might shed a few tears and complain a little but that was it. 

 

 

This is the Victorian version of punching someone's lights out.   :P

[Carol the Dabbler]

Alternatively, he might have fainted. :D

[Arcadia]

 

I think HoB would have worked better later in the show. As it was, we were still getting used to the Sherlock-John relationship in some ways, so you didn't get quite the impact. (Although I found Sherlock's panic attack effective.)

That's how I felt about TRF the first time I saw it. I didn't feel like there'd really been enough episodes yet for me to feel the emotional impact of the fall like I wanted to. I don't know how it would have worked with the structure of the show to have it later though.

 

 

I felt a little the same, plus by the time I saw TRF I already knew there was going to be a Season 3, so I knew Sherlock couldn't die. It was still a great episode with lots of emotional punch, though. It just feels a bit out of sequence, somehow. Plus, it became obvious pretty quick that they'd killed off Moriarty too soon. Some of the urgency went out of the show with his demise.

[Artemis]

I felt a little the same, plus by the time I saw TRF I already knew there was going to be a Season 3, so I knew Sherlock couldn't die. It was still a great episode with lots of emotional punch, though. It just feels a bit out of sequence, somehow. Plus, it became obvious pretty quick that they'd killed off Moriarty too soon. Some of the urgency went out of the show with his demise.

^ Exactly this.

 

It's not that there was no emotional impact for me, just not as much as there would have been had it come later in the show.

 

I also knew that he wasn't going to die, because I'd seen the Guy Ritchie films and I'd read up on the literature via Wikipedia. (Even if I hadn't, though, I still wouldn't have thought he was really dead.) For me that didn't have any effect on the emotional impact; it was the length of time spent watching John and Sherlock's relationship develop. I would have felt their separation more keenly if I'd seen more of them together.

[Shadow Dweller]

Love, Antartica, Porlock, Langdale; four people who live in shadow.

 

1. Alicia, Lady Smallwood - spouse deceased.

2. Mycroft Holmes - most likely unmarried and living alone.

3.Mrs. Norbury - widowed.

4. Sir I-forgot-his-name - status unknown.

 

Mrs. Norbury appeared as Lady Smallwood's sort of assistant, then what might be the fourth member's position/role in their quartet in regards of the others?

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've always thought the four code names were for Mycroft, Lady Smallwood, Sir (Edmund?), and Sherlock. Vivian Norbury seemed to be an intentional nonentity, so that her unmasking (like that of Jeff the cabbie in "Pink") was the equivalent of "the butler did it."

[Shadow Dweller]

Sherlock counted in the four? What is your reasoning for it?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Partly that I didn't think Vivian was meant to count, and partly that Sherlock was an actual participant in the events being discussed. What is your reason for thinking he isn't one of the four?

[Shadow Dweller]

1. Lady Smallwood said, "Mr. Holmes," when she was about to remind that they should proceed. If Sherlock was a regular attendant of such meetings and also part of the quartet it would make sense for her to have certain way to address Mycroft and another for Sherlock.

 

2. Before that we were treated by Sherlock's apparent lack of knowledge about Mrs. Norbury's name and when combined with the happening at the next episode where the latter was seen as accompanying Lady Smallwood to the security checkpoint it stands that Vivian Norbury was part of the four. Four people with more or less equal security clearance for certain affairs of the country.

 

3. Back to the beginning of this episode, take a look at Mycroft's speech about who actually know the truth instead of the doctored, official version of the Magnussen's murder. There are five people in that room, which one was more likely the outsider?

 

4. Later when Mrs. Norbury talked about her motivation to kill off A.G.R.A. together with the hostages she was talking about living in shadow. Was she talking about Lady Smallwood's shadow? No, she was talking in general, the broad meaning of shadow. Always unseen and unacknowledged despite she thinks that she 's smarter than most in the room and thus deserves some recognition. That clued us to a long involvement in top secret matters. Codenames for the parties involved in sordid matters added another layer of security just in case there is a leak in the future.

 

5. After looking at point one to four we are back to the five attendants of a clandestine meeting at the beginning of the first episode. Which one of the five is most likely the outsider?

[Pseudonym]

I also think Norbury is not one of the four. It was the fact she was a non-entity and they all ignored her presence so much that made her able to fly under the radar so easily. When Sherlock realises it's her later on, I believe he says something to that effect, about her having access to so much classified information but being invisible. 

[Arcadia]

I was always confused by that too, because I followed Shadow's reasoning; Sherlock's the outsider, so he's the one who doesn't have a code name. Plus it's never made sense to me that they ignored Norbury that completely in a top secret meeting. Even in the little local government entity I used to work for, we were more security conscious than that.

 

In spite of all that, though, I think Pseud and Carol are right; Porlock is Sherlock, and Norbury wasn't considered a person. Pretty stupid, if you ask me, but no one did. :P

[Pseudonym]

Right at the beginning I thought having a secretary in a secret meeting was the height of stupidity. 

[Shadow Dweller]

It is in human nature to 'dismiss' things that doesn't seems to possess threat to their well-being and instead focus on those that displayed the opposite qualities. Vivian Norbury could fly under the radar because she exploited that loophole by pretending to be meek, unassuming and already proved to be loyal many times at the past and thus didn't give the others reason to focus on her doings. It is the same loophole used by every embezzler and traitor known in history, otherwise they would not be able to execute their plans successfully. Given their age, Mycroft and Sir Edwin might join the circle after the old members mostly had been phased out one way or another and those two were not exactly projecting the air of, 'I am harmless and obedient.'

[Carol the Dabbler]

Just occurred to me -- Mary thought her three partners had all been killed at the embassy, right? So why was she still carrying her AGRA stick after all those years? To the best of her knowledge, it no longer provided her any protection, and if it fell into the wrong hands, it could ruin her. Why not destroy it immediately after the embassy fiasco?

[Pseudonym]

Oh God knows why she did anything. Thinking of all the reasons I dislike her for the John thread makes me... just... *throws hands up*

[Shadow Dweller]

Probably because bulding aliases and alternate lives took a long time and after the Tbilisi fiasco she is no longer have the necessary resources to generate and maintain new identities, not without considerable efforts which might attract the wrong attention.

[Janyss]

Well, I must admit I've seen this one after number 3. So...I thus particularly enjoyed Mycroft's face when, during the interview with the commission, Sherlock wonders about what Moriarty had in mind.

 

This interview. Pure happiness. Mycroft and Sherlock in argument. Lady S. having to deal with WHOLE (so it seems) Holmes family. Mary's past and death: wasn't unexpected, sad, with devastating consequences.Yeah, good. As good as the season finale.

[J.P.]

This is highly interesting - about Rachel's panel at the newest Sherlocked USA
http://fffinnagain.tumblr.com/post/174328502023/rachel-talalay-and-the-case-of-the-missing

[Arcadia]

Ha, I was just heading over here to post that myself. Makes you wonder if T6T might have been more successful if they'd had more time, doesn't it?

[T.o.b.y]

Oh MAN, I so wish they had stuck to their original concept. Imagine what a cool episode it could have been.