Episode 2.3, "The Reichenbach Fall"

[T.o.b.y]

Exactly! How would you effectively torture Moriarty? Even if you could get him to say something, he could always use Irene's trick: two commands, one for "stop" and one for "shoot them", and even under duress, how would Sherlock know which one Moriarty gave him?

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm not saying that Mycroft has scruples, exactly, but he's presumably working under some sort of government guidelines, at least in theory.  And Sherlock may be more inventive -- or a better judge of weaknesses -- or just plain meaner.

 

But T.o.b.y has an excellent point.  Why wouldn't Irene's two-different-codes caveat apply to Moriarty as well?  Dare I say, two different people wrote those scripts?

 

I'm still reasonably certain that's why Moriarty shot himself, though.  It just feels right to me.  Aha!  How about this?  He found out from Irene that Sherlock had surmised the existence of her two codes, so he reasoned that Sherlock would suspect that he had two codes as well, and would torture him to divulge both codes.  And he did not trust himself to be sufficiently resolute to swap them.

 

[T.o.b.y]

I'm not saying that Mycroft has scruples, exactly, but he's presumably working under some sort of government guidelines, at least in theory.  And Sherlock may be more inventive -- or a better judge of weaknesses -- or just plain meaner.

 

The only difference I can imagine there is the inventiveness.

 

I don't really believe they thought the thing with the two codes out - "was written by different people" is probably the best explanation there.

 

I think you are right that he shot himself because Sherlock convinced him that he was just as "evil" as Moriarty himself. I just wished he'd been a bit more specific. The dialogue made so little sense to me when I watched the episode the first time that I thought it was utter nonsense and Sherlock was just stalling for time because the right moment to jump hadn't quite come yet. (Although maybe my intellect was just fried by the way Sherlock says "burn"...)

 

[Karie]

 

I'm not saying that Mycroft has scruples, exactly, but he's presumably working under some sort of government guidelines, at least in theory.  And Sherlock may be more inventive -- or a better judge of weaknesses -- or just plain meaner.

 

The only difference I can imagine there is the inventiveness.

 

I don't really believe they thought the thing with the two codes out - "was written by different people" is probably the best explanation there.

 

I think you are right that he shot himself because Sherlock convinced him that he was just as "evil" as Moriarty himself. I just wished he'd been a bit more specific. The dialogue made so little sense to me when I watched the episode the first time that I thought it was utter nonsense and Sherlock was just stalling for time because the right moment to jump hadn't quite come yet. (Although maybe my intellect was just fried by the way Sherlock says "burn"...)

 

 

 

I was also very confused by that dialogue. My pet theory is that Moriarty had already decided to end his life. He was looking pretty forlorn when we first cut to him on the roof.  I was just posting earlier about people of superior intelligence often feeling lonely, depressed, and misunderstood with no one to talk to, as no one can really understand things on the level in which they perceive them.  Moriarty had delighted in his cat and mouse game with Sherlock, but once he decided that he had "beaten" Sherlock and that Sherlock was an ordinary person like everyone else, Moriarty decided that he was, at that point, forever alone and bored and was just done with it all.  

 

Then when Sherlock proved that he actually wasn't ordinary at all, and wasn't beaten, Moriarty went ahead and killed himself as his final victory in their game. Which, I know, is a pretty convoluted thought process, but who can really say what's too far-fetched when discussing the motives of a mad man? 

 

Something I've  been wondering is why the heck were the snipers still a threat after Moriarty's death? I mean, even if he set them all up with a lot of money to continue watching Sherlock's friends and ensuring he was defamed, would they really bother to put in the effort if their boss was dead? I wonder how he managed to ensure their loyalty? 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Something I've  been wondering is why the heck were the snipers still a threat after Moriarty's death? I mean, even if he set them all up with a lot of money to continue watching Sherlock's friends and ensuring he was defamed, would they really bother to put in the effort if their boss was dead? I wonder how he managed to ensure their loyalty? 

 

Seems to me there could be several answers.  For example:

 

1.  Moriarty has hired some real pros who take pride in their work.  If they're hired to do a certain job, they'll do it.

 

2.  The snipers don't get fully paid till somebody is dead.  This could be set up as life-insurance policies on Sherlock and/or his friends, with the snipers as beneficiaries -- though if I were the snipers, I'd want cash (rather than anything that might incriminate me).

 

Now I've got another question -- do the snipers get paid anything at all if Sherlock dies?  Or only if he doesn't die and the snipers shoot his friends?

 

[T.o.b.y]

If you guys are right and nobody knows Moriarty died, his people would still be in awe of him and wouldn't dare go against his orders, I suppose.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh!  Good point.  Yeah, that too.

 

[Karie]

 

Something I've  been wondering is why the heck were the snipers still a threat after Moriarty's death? I mean, even if he set them all up with a lot of money to continue watching Sherlock's friends and ensuring he was defamed, would they really bother to put in the effort if their boss was dead? I wonder how he managed to ensure their loyalty? 

 

Seems to me there could be several answers.  For example:

 

1.  Moriarty has hired some real pros who take pride in their work.  If they're hired to do a certain job, they'll do it.

 

2.  The snipers don't get fully paid till somebody is dead.  This could be set up as life-insurance policies on Sherlock and/or his friends, with the snipers as beneficiaries -- though if I were the snipers, I'd want cash (rather than anything that might incriminate me).

 

Now I've got another question -- do the snipers get paid anything at all if Sherlock dies?  Or only if he doesn't die and the snipers shoot his friends?

 

 

That's a good question. I'm actually wondering if maybe Moriarty had a threat on their heads as well.  Maybe they were afraid that, if they didn't follow through on their orders, another sniper was waiting to shoot them or their families.  

 

 

If you guys are right and nobody knows Moriarty died, his people would still be in awe of him and wouldn't dare go against his orders, I suppose.

 

 

I would assume that his body would have quickly been found on the roof. Either by the authorities, or Moriarty's own men.  And possibly the sniper that was nearby would have seen him shoot himself through the scope on the rifle. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I would assume that his body would have quickly been found on the roof. Either by the authorities, or Moriarty's own men.  And possibly the sniper that was nearby would have seen him shoot himself through the scope on the rifle.

 

At this point, we have no way of knowing whether any of Moriarty's people saw what happened on the roof.  If they did, it's possible that they made off with his body.

 

But considering how Sherlock made a point of leaving his phone on the roof, I suspect he had arranged for someone (presumably Molly) to retrieve it -- in which case she'd also find the body, and could have had it whisked away to cold storage before the police arrived.

 

I suppose it's also possible that the police found the body, but if so, they're not admitting it, because the news reports about Sherlock's "suicide" make no mention of Moriarty's death.

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

This only has to do with Moriarty's dead body in a very wide sense, but I've been thinking about things a little too hard again and come to the conclusion that "The Final Problem" for Moriarty (and Sherlock) was why stay alive (duh, I know...). Moriarty found existence unbearable. He needed to be distracted from that constantly, as did Sherlock when we first met him. Distraction changes nothing, so it does not matter whether it ends in death as long as that death serves to prove a point or makes sense in some way.

 

That is why Moriarty kills himself and also why Sherlock doesn't. He does not even heroically sacrifice his life for his friends (would have been a very good way out of it if he didn't like life too well himself). But Sherlock has solved the Final Problem and found plenty of reasons to live, at least for the time being. So he goes to a lot of trouble to be able to stay around for a while.

[T.o.b.y]

Have I cluttered this forum yet with how happy I am with the way they built up to the Reichenbach finale throughout the whole series?

 

The introduction of Moriarty and his obsession with Sherlock in the very first episode, Sherlock already looking down from various heights in The Blind Banker, the idea of Moriarty playing a "great game" with him, Sherlock having to rethink his attitude about hostages in the course of that, Irene already showing the audience that faking one's death is entirely possible even in the age of DNA analysis and proving (to those who hadn't caught on to that by then) that yes, he is capable of feeling love and the pain of loss, the problem of becoming a celebrity led up to ever since John started his blog, "you see what you expect / fear most" explored in The Hounds of Baskerville to prepare the audience for Watson's (and it's own) perception of Sherlock's "death", in the same episode Sherlock shown capable of fear and being vulnerable enough for us to really worry about him when he gets deeper and deeper into trouble...

 

I bet there's a lot more. Those six episodes, even though each stands well on it's own, really tell one big story.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Have I cluttered this forum yet with how happy I am with the way they built up to the Reichenbach finale throughout the whole series?

 

Nope, don't believe so.  How happy are you? 

 

... Sherlock already looking down from various heights in The Blind Banker...

 

... and in "Hounds" ....

 

I bet there's a lot more. Those six episodes, even though each stands well on it's own, really tell one big story.

 

Lordy, and I was already having enough trouble wrapping my head around an entire episode at once!

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

Have I cluttered this forum yet with how happy I am with the way they built up to the Reichenbach finale throughout the whole series?

 

Nope, don't believe so.  How happy are you? 

 

 

Like, really really happy?

 

I usually don't like serials, because I want / need (at least I can still put these slashes between words that are not people's names without implying anything sexual, right?) a complete, coherent, intricate story with a proper ending and character development and usually, in dozens of episodes à 30 min, that's just not possible.

 

(Hmmm, as a rule I like neither literary adaptations nor TV series - how come my screen has been showing either "Sherlock" or "Parades End" 90% of it's play time lately?)

 

It's going to be interesting to see whether they can keep the "big picture" together in the future. The Moriarty chapter is closed and so is faking death (I hope), but there's always the main character with a lot of "unexplored possibilities" to go on.

[Carol the Dabbler]

To say nothing of Charles Augustus What's-his-name.

 

[T.o.b.y]

Oh yes, I expect he'll open up a new story spanning several episodes...

 

Just noticed another detail that kind of foreshadows "The Fall": In The Hounds of Baskerville, Sherlock's first association with the words "liberty in" is "liberty in death".

[Carol the Dabbler]

That's only because he didn't grow up in Indiana. 

 

 

Come to think of it, I'm not sure he actually grew up anywhere -- though he does seem to be working on it lately.

 

[Sacker]

Outstanding!  Well done at every turn. Last five minutes may be the best in the series so far.   If I were a betting man, I'd say Molly *swoon* had something to do with helping him.  Not sure how, but it just feels like it.  I'll find out tonight.  ;-)

[mxmarg]

I've just read up to post #68, dateline 2012, where someone speculated Sherlock really fell into a truckbed full of Whosits and the body that hit the ground was Moriarty with a Sherlock mask and his clothes were stuffed with extra Whosits for a more sherlock body appearance, albeit a crunchy one...    Having had the belly laugh of the day and a sudden urge for Cheetos, I think I'll return to reading later...

[T.o.b.y]

Now that series 3 is there, I really don't know how I endured the sadness of the ending before. I used to really like it and think, okay, if the show goes bad from now on, I can just stop here, the story is complete. Now, just seeing the snippets of The Reichenbach Fall at the beginning of The Empty Hearse make me feel all teary and I am so glad I can watch his return right away. It's kind of like how I feel about the stories; I avoid "The Final Problem" and love to read "The Empty House".

[sherlockandjohn]

Now that series 3 is there, I really don't know how I endured the sadness of the ending before. I used to really like it and think, okay, if the show goes bad from now on, I can just stop here, the story is complete. Now, just seeing the snippets of The Reichenbach Fall at the beginning of The Empty Hearse make me feel all teary and I am so glad I can watch his return right away. It's kind of like how I feel about the stories; I avoid "The Final Problem" and love to read "The Empty House".

 

I know; it's even more sad now, isn't it? I kind of like that, though Gives it a new meaning, at least, when I think of John's emotional response to Sherlock's return.

 

[sherlockandjohn]

Watched this last night with my sister - her first viewing and my, probably, 14th or something. I've lost count Upon seeing the graveyard scene, more specifically where John asks Sherlock to stop being dead, my sister... laughed. Obviously it was funny that John asked something that's not really possible, right? No. Ah, well, she's not as emotionally invested in these characters as I've always been. Those words, "just stop it, stop this", and then John looking at the gravestone, were exactly what triggered my tears when I first watched the episode. And several times since.

 

This has to be my favorite episode. I could probably give many reasons for that, and they won't sum it up perfectly anyway. It's just the most gripping episode for me, without being tainted by anything sad between Sherlock and John. Prior to Sherlock's fall, of course; that's plenty sad, but it doesn't taint the friendship - yet! Then series 3 happens, and things change - some for the better, and some for the worse, in my opinion.

[sherlockandjohn]

"You can't kill an idea, can you? Not once it's made a home up there." ... "It is a game, Lestrade, and not one I'm willing to play."

 

Ooooh, am watching the episode and this scene again, and it gives me chills. Seeing Sherlock so wrongly accused, and gradually being cornered, is gut-wrenching. And having Lestrade doubt him, even for a second, is a bit heart-breaking. All the more reason to be upset when Sherlock says to John, "You're worried they're right." :'(  and to be moved when John says: "No one could fake being such an annoying dick all the time."

[Convict13]

I re watched this episode tonight, the first time since seeing The Empty Hearse, I was still a bubbling mess of tears by the end even though I know the outcome.  This episode is faultless and even I the viewer begin to doubt.  Thinking about it have we actually seen anyone arrested (apart from Moriarty) for any crimes in Sherlock?  The Taxi Driver in A Study in Pink was shot dead, so I don't count him.  AHhh - The Hounds of Baskerville, I might need to rewatch that one. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

... have we actually seen anyone arrested (apart from Moriarty) for any crimes in Sherlock?  The Taxi Driver in A Study in Pink was shot dead, so I don't count him.  AHhh - The Hounds of Baskerville, I might need to rewatch that one.

 

Oh, good question -- nope, not in "Hounds" either -- Frankland blew himself up.  The only ones I can think of offhand are in Series 3 -- Lord Moran (The Rat in "Empty Hearse") and Jonathan Small (the photographer in "Sign of Three").  Oh, and Sherlock.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And while they didn't show the actual arrest there are the clowns getting nabbed during the gold heist. In Season Two there is Moriarty's apprehension at the Tower of London wearing the crown jewels.