Episode 2.3, "The Reichenbach Fall"

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Or it's that age old sibling thing....like Mummy catching them smoking and the first thing out of Sherlock's mouth is "Mycroft"....it's can be very automatic.....don't even have to think about it....but John wouldn't have any trouble believing that Mycroft would be a part of it....whether it was true or not. So Sherlock could be deflecting.... a bit.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

So what is his motive, if it's not to save his friends? The only answer  he gives is, "Moriarty had to be stopped." So let's assume Sherlock "had to" go undercover. Which means a fake death was in the cards all along, it had nothing to do with Jim's snipers. Which means the fake suicide was for one person's benefit; John.

 

But why? Why did John have to witness The Fall? Why not include him in the plan? No answer. Frustration ensues.

The real-world explanation is presumably that it's canon. Holmes let Watson believe that he was dead for THREE years!

 

The in-universe explanation is presumably what Sherlock tells John in, I believe, the third restaurant -- that his underworld targets wouldn't believe he was dead unless John believed he was dead, because John is a lousy liar. In canon, Holmes gave Watson the same explanation.

  

What I don't understand about that explanation is that the sniper would have seen all the commotion with the airbag. Why didn't he shoot John then? Why did Sherlock even risk it, if he thought the sniper might be able to see it? I'm racking my brain to come up with an answer, but can't right now.

 

Maybe the writers just haven't gone into detail as much as we have? If they were happy with leaving the explanation open, maybe they didn't care that the one offered wasn't watertight?

And if we're to believe what we see when Sherlock is explaining to Anderson, JOHN would have seen the partially-inflated airbag as his cab approached Bart's. Frankly, I wouldn't mind being left somewhat in the lurch on these questions if Moftiss hadn't been so adamant (during the hiatus) that they had everything all worked out -- "like clockwork" as Sherlock says. Actually, I suspect that they did have it pretty well worked out when they filmed "Reichenbach" -- but then in "Empty Hearse," they tried to explain away some of the fannish quibbles.  In my opinion, they'd have been better off to leave it sketchy-but-plausible.

 

[sherlockandjohn]

 

And if we're to believe what we see when Sherlock is explaining to Anderson, JOHN would have seen the partially-inflated airbag as his cab approached Bart's.

 

Really? Didn't he arrive behind the ambulance station, and it was while he was still behind it that the airbag was pulled out?

 

 

 

Actually, I suspect that they did have it pretty well worked out when they filmed "Reichenbach" -- but then in "Empty Hearse," they tried to explain away some of the fannish quibbles.  In my opinion, they'd have been better off to leave it sketchy-but-plausible.

 

Brilliant! Why didn't they have you on board when discussing how to write this out?

I'll have to agree; that would have been better.

[Arcadia]

I notice an awful lot of "interpreting" has to take place to make any sense of it! I've resigned myself to that, but I still don't think it's the most effective way to tell a story.

 

I think I'll try to dig a little further, but first....

 

Your TRF synopsis looks good, except that I would include the very important fact that we see Sherlock alive in the very last seconds. Already there we get a good indication that a lot more went on behind the scenes than we were told. Sherlock planned to take down Moriarty; that's why he invited him onto the rooftop in the first place. How he planned to do it, though, is a mystery.

Okay, that's a point ... when I first saw TRF, I already knew there was going to be a Season 3. So I knew the whole thing had to be a ruse, that Sherlock wasn't going to die. (Although I think I would have assumed that anyway. One does not simply kill Sherlock Holmes! )   But I guess if you were watching it at the time it first aired, him popping up alive at the graveyard was more of a surprise?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

But I guess if you were watching it at the time it first aired, him popping up alive at the graveyard was more of a surprise?

 

  If you want some idea of the full impact of that moment there are some fan vids on Youtube where they taped friends, family members and themselves watching "TRF".....it can be quite enlightening.

[sherlockandjohn]

I notice an awful lot of "interpreting" has to take place to make any sense of it! I've resigned myself to that, but I still don't think it's the most effective way to tell a story.

 

I think I'll try to dig a little further, but first....

 

Your TRF synopsis looks good, except that I would include the very important fact that we see Sherlock alive in the very last seconds. Already there we get a good indication that a lot more went on behind the scenes than we were told. Sherlock planned to take down Moriarty; that's why he invited him onto the rooftop in the first place. How he planned to do it, though, is a mystery.

Okay, that's a point ... when I first saw TRF, I already knew there was going to be a Season 3. So I knew the whole thing had to be a ruse, that Sherlock wasn't going to die. (Although I think I would have assumed that anyway. One does not simply kill Sherlock Holmes! )   But I guess if you were watching it at the time it first aired, him popping up alive at the graveyard was more of a surprise?

 

 

Have no personal experience there... I was in the same boat as you.

However, I tend to get so wrapped up in what I watch that I don't think forward. I wasn't watching Reichenbach and thinking, "Oh, well, Sherlock's going to survive, so there's got to be something else going on here!" That was upon later reflection. Fortunately! I'm glad I am able to just enjoy what I'm watching without over-thinking it (at first).

 

[Arcadia]

 

But I guess if you were watching it at the time it first aired, him popping up alive at the graveyard was more of a surprise?

 

  If you want some idea of the full impact of that moment there are some fan vids on Youtube where they taped friends, family members and themselves watching "TRF".....it can be quite enlightening.

 

Saw part of one of those once, once was enuff!

[Arcadia]

Have no personal experience there... I was in the same boat as you.

However, I tend to get so wrapped up in what I watch that I don't think forward. I wasn't watching Reichenbach and thinking, "Oh, well, Sherlock's going to survive, so there's got to be something else going on here!" That was upon later reflection. Fortunately! I'm glad I am able to just enjoy what I'm watching without over-thinking it (at first).

Oh, I don't think that far forward! I've just seen/read enough drama in my life to be suspicious when a main character unexpectedly "dies" -- I instinctively go into skeptic mode until proven wrong. I'm trying to think when I've ever been wrong ... There must be at least one time!

[Caya]

There's this little book/show called Game of Thrones ...

 

If you want to see main characters die and stay dead, that one has a legendary body count.

[Carol the Dabbler]

And if we're to believe what we see when Sherlock is explaining to Anderson, JOHN would have seen the partially-inflated airbag as his cab approached Bart's.

 

Really? Didn't he arrive behind the ambulance station, and it was while he was still behind it that the airbag was pulled out?

Internet maps don't seem to be working for me today, so let's just imagine the scene in our heads (nothing new, huh?).

 

The ambulance station is a small rectangular building, with its long dimension running basically north-south.  You're right, the hospital is east of the station, and John was standing west of it.  The airbag was shown being inflated by the south end, with an ambulance hiding it from John's view -- but that was AFTER he got out of the cab.

 

Oddly enough, they showed the airbag being unrolled (and I think partially inflated) BEFORE John arrived -- and his cab entered the scene from the south.  He must have gone right past it!

 

But that is, as I said, IF we are to believe what we see during Sherlock's explanation to Anderson.  What are we seeing then?  Is it Sherlock's recollection?  Anderson's imagination?  The actual scene?  Heck, I don't even know whether that explanation really happened.  It was oddly placed, in the middle of the bomb-train scene.  Might it have been Sherlock's mind wandering, thinking "I really should tell Anderson how I did it.  NOT!"

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I've just seen/read enough drama in my life to be suspicious when a main character unexpectedly "dies" -- I instinctively go into skeptic mode until proven wrong. I'm trying to think when I've ever been wrong ... There must be at least one time!

I'm the same way -- and I was wrong about Dumbledore.

 

[Arcadia]

 

... I've just seen/read enough drama in my life to be suspicious when a main character unexpectedly "dies" -- I instinctively go into skeptic mode until proven wrong. I'm trying to think when I've ever been wrong ... There must be at least one time!

I'm the same way -- and I was wrong about Dumbledore.

 

Thanks! And I was wrong about Sirius, so there's two! Way to go, JK!

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I've just seen/read enough drama in my life to be suspicious when a main character unexpectedly "dies" -- I instinctively go into skeptic mode until proven wrong. I'm trying to think when I've ever been wrong ... There must be at least one time!

I'm the same way -- and I was wrong about Dumbledore.

Thanks! And I was wrong about Sirius, so there's two! Way to go, JK!

 

Oh, right -- Sirius too.  (Damn!    )

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

The only excuse I can of right now for John was that he was looking out the cab window....true.....but his attention seemed to be up......so he may have missed seeing the big blue bag....and at the time it may not have registered what it was....then he was so traumatized....that if he saw it at all....it may have been forgotten all together.

 

 Even in canon Watson could be pretty dense.

[Arcadia]

I wonder what Sherlock would have done if John's cabbie had driven a little faster.

[Carol the Dabbler]

The only excuse I can of right now for John was that he was looking out the cab window....true.....but his attention seemed to be up......so he may have missed seeing the big blue bag....and at the time it may not have registered what it was....then he was so traumatized....that if he saw it at all....it may have been forgotten all together.

 

 Even in canon Watson could be pretty dense.

 

He was even looking out of the cab window on the side facing the airbag!

 

So I guess you're right -- even if he did notice it momentarily, he knows that there are often odd things going on around a hospital.  And the subsequent events would have wiped it right out of his memory.

 

Don't think he'd even need to be dense!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

He was even looking out of the cab window on the side facing the airbag!

 

 True, I did notice that. Good thing that as you said....strange things go on around hospitals.

[sfmpco]

Sherlock does act very much surprised when Moriarty pulls out the gun, he is trying to pull away even before Moriarty puts the thing in his mouth and pulls the trigger.

 

 What is this thing about anyone shaking hands with Sherlock up to this point dies?  Even Sherlock wonders about it......does he half expect something like this to happen? He seems a bit hesitant to take the offered hand Moriarty holds out to him. Suspected...maybe....but not wholly expected?

 

 But yeah....there is more to this then we are being told. If "Big Brother" knew of Sherlock's plan to die then disappear.....why weren't they in touch the whole two years Sherlock was in Europe?   Mycroft said it took some time to find him.  Sherlock even has to tell Mycroft that he had spent the last two years taking down Moriarty's web.  So either Mycroft wasn't in on it as Sherlock said....or middle age is really....really....catching up with him and he's become very forgetful.....which I doubt if he can learn Serbian in a couple of hours.

 

That thing about learning Serbian in a couple of hours - and Sherlock remarked that that was longer than in usually took Mycroft.  But we know that Sherlock was also speaking Serbian to the guy who was beating him, even though we couldn't his voice.  So probably Sherlock has that same ability to learn a new language within a couple of hours or less, a skill which would have enabled him considerably while undercover.

 

Also, I think Sherlock has the ability to disappear if he doesn't want to be found.  He made his way into Karachi to rescue Irene without Mycroft knowing -  "It would take Sherlock Holmes to fool me, and I don't think he was on hand..."  So even if Mycroft had a rough plan to dismantle Moriarty's network, Sherlock was doing the legwork and probably had to go so deep undercover at times that even Mycroft couldn't find him.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Also, I think Sherlock has the ability to disappear if he doesn't want to be found.  He made his way into Karachi to rescue Irene without Mycroft knowing -  "It would take Sherlock Holmes to fool me, and I don't think he was on hand..."  So even if Mycroft had a rough plan to dismantle Moriarty's network, Sherlock was doing the legwork and probably had to go so deep undercover at times that even Mycroft couldn't find him.

 

  No real argument from me there.....yes...I believe Sherlock could and did run circles around Mycroft when it came to "doing the leg work". That's why Big Brother had to consult with Holmes the Younger when Mycroft got in a tight spot like the Bruce-Partington Plans.

 

But what was being pointed out was that if Mycroft was so much apart of the planing of "The Fall".....why did Sherlock have to reiterate that he had spent the last two years taking Moriarty's web apartin Mycroft's war room at the Diogene's Club?

 

   Mycroft should have already known that.....and if he didn't....then there is another piece where Sherlock's explanation to John falls flat on it's face.  Which is why I don't buy it. Like in the canon....something else happened at the Reichenbach Falls  that Holmes never told Watson and Sherlock is pulling the same stunt.

[Arcadia]

Well, he had to say SOMEthing about the last two years, or the audience wouldn't know.

 

Mycroft said it took him awhile to track down Sherlock. So he wasn't that deep into little brother's plans. Just enough to help (like a fake passport, perhaps) but not enough to interfere, I would guess. We all know how touchy Sherlock is about that! -- I can't see him reporting back to Mycroft on his doings. Plus we see Mycroft consulting a file, implying he's only now catching up with Sherlock's activities. So the "I spent two years" remark isn't wholly unnecessary, imo.

[Arcadia]

I just ran across something interesting. I've always thought that Sherlock arranged the phone call that drew John away in TRF. But someone else suggested it was Moriarty who arranged the call. Apparently that's closer to "canon" ... and also it makes a little more sense ... how else did Jim know when Sherlock would be alone.

 

It also makes me think again that Sherlock didn't intend for John to see the fall, but once John showed up he had to find a way to keep him at a distance so he wouldn't ruin the stage show. Which means the jump was for Moriarty's observers, not for John; that is, it would have taken place whether John was there or not. Just a thought.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

But someone else suggested it was Moriarty who arranged the call. Apparently that's closer to "canon" ... and also it makes a little more sense ... how else did Jim know when Sherlock would be alone.

 

  That is very interesting....indeed it is.  And yes, it would have been closer to canon....and Sherlock's cool headedness about it would also be canon....according to the explanation Holmes gives Watson in "The Empty House". He tells Watson that he suspected that the boy was an operative of Moriarty's and that the note was a hoax but does nothing to stop Watson from returning to the hotel just as our Sherlock does nothing to stop John from rushing off to a supposedly dying Mrs. Hudson. 

 

 

 

It also makes me think again that Sherlock didn't intend for John to see the fall, but once John showed up he had to find a way to keep him at a distance so he wouldn't ruin the stage show. Which means the jump was for Moriarty's observers, not for John; that is, it would have taken place whether John was there or not. Just a thought.

 

   It would take a disclaimer from Gatiss and BC to convince me otherwise. I have no doubt that John was not supposed to be there.

[sfmpco]

I suspect Sherlock had a rough plan that he and Mycroft discussed as you never know what the war really is until you are on the front lines.  Really, he wouldn't have known how bad or complicated the situation was until he got there.  Neither may have thought it would take 2 years, but how long did it take to also clear Sherlock's name?  Even if SH took longer to dismantle Moriarty's network, I doubt he would have resurfaced before his name was cleared.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

If there I remember right, some did call into question SH reputation after his supposed death at Reichenbach....but in canon it didn't seem to have the depth nor the length that our Sherlock's fall from grace did.

 

 In the "Final Problem" Watson does elude to some "injudicious champions", people who did try to destroy Holmes name and reputation but Watson did say who these people were. He went on to say that it had been two years since the events at Reichenbach and only now was he being forced to make the true facts known to the public because of these attacks on Holmes's memory.

 

  When Holmes does make his appearance.....Scotland Yard already knows about it and falls willingly and readily into his plans to capture Colonel Moran that very night. Holmes only shows up in disguise so that Moran will not know that he is in London....and for no other reason then that....apparently anyway.

 

 

[Arcadia]

 

It also makes me think again that Sherlock didn't intend for John to see the fall, but once John showed up he had to find a way to keep him at a distance so he wouldn't ruin the stage show. Which means the jump was for Moriarty's observers, not for John; that is, it would have taken place whether John was there or not. Just a thought.

 

   It would take a disclaimer from Gatiss and BC to convince me otherwise. I have no doubt that John was not supposed to be there.

 

And all this time I've been thinking that "John as witness" was a necessary (and very cruel) part of the plan! Instead it may be a wrinkle. Too bad Sherlock couldn't have told Anderson one way or the other...