Episode 2.3, "The Reichenbach Fall"

[Dragonslayer]

Re: Moriarty. I see. But what else could Jim expect from Sherlock? He did say a few minutes ago that Sherlock can kill him, threaten him, torture him but he won't reveal the code.

 

Re. The key code......Having sussed out that Jim was tapping out the binary code during the visit to 221b, Sherlock thinks he can use it to alter all the faked computer records which document Richard Brooks's

existence. I think......

Yes but Sherlockon the roof says something like the key code is in hia mind or something. Which is why you can use it to alter records. I didn't really get where exactly Sherlock thinks the key code is planted.

[T.o.b.y]

Can anyone explain to me the entire rooftop conversation?

 

I doubt it... but if anybody can, I want the explanation as well!

 

I had hoped that it would all make sense after series 3, but nope. It actually feels more confusing than before. I wonder whether the people who wrote and acted that scene even know what was going on.

 

Now, if Moriarty is indeed alive, maybe we'll get something out of him in series 4. No, I have not learned to give up hopes like that by now. I am incorrigible.

 

I haven't dared to watch The Reichenbach fall since series 3 aired. I think I'd be irritated, because I'd feel cheated while watching all that fake distress of Sherlock and Mycroft's, and the episode feels even more sad than before to me, because now I have a pretty good idea what John went through and how unnecessary all that was. Before The Empty Hearse, I used to think Sherlock had been a real hero, that he'd had no other choice, his friends would have died, bla bla bla. And I also thought that John would actually be very happy once he got over the first shock and met Mary, whereas it turns out he was merely comforted a bit. John looks awful at the beginning of series 3, and to know that was all for a lark, so to speak - nope, I don't need to dwell on that too much, even though I do love lots of scenes in The Reichenbach Fall.

[Caya]

I'm still not convinced that Sherlock's distress, at least, was fake.

 

What reason do we have to believe it was fake? He stated so. To Anderson. While being videotaped. Not the situation where Sherlock would admit to being out of his depth, frightened and desperate.

 

What reason do we have to believe it was genuine? We saw him crying on the roof. Nobody in-Sherlockverse did (John was way too far away). So why fake it?

 

I don't buy that whole "everything was planned and there was never any danger" spiel he gave to Anderson.

[T.o.b.y]

Good for you! My problem is, I'll believe anything Sherlock says, until it's been proven to be a lie... He's so convincing!

[Caya]

Yeah, and of course Sherlock would never, ever lie to protect his ego .

[T.o.b.y]

Another good point!

 

Hmmm, I can just picture Moriarty watching Anderson's tape while rolling on the floor with laughter and going "oh my god, that's what you told them!?"

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

For me anyway, "The Empty Hearse" makes more sense if the emotions Sherlock displayed during "TRF" where real. Along with Caya, I don't believe we have gotten Sherlock's full scoop on what went down on the roof top and Sherlock's claim that he and Mycroft had it all covered. During "TRF" it didn't look like he had everything under control and that he was just passively watching Moriarty take his reputation apart.

[Arcadia]

Re: Moriarty. I see. But what else could Jim expect from Sherlock? ... but Sherlock on the roof says something like the key code is in his mind or something. Which is why you can use it to alter records. I didn't really get where exactly Sherlock thinks the key code is planted.

I think I understand your question. I hope! Sherlock thought he'd figured out the code, and now it was stored in his head. He could then, presumably, use the code to hack any computer and change or delete all of Richard Brook's faked records, and reveal that he was really Moriarty. Unfortunately, the code didn't really exist, that was just a trick of Jim's. Is that what you were looking for?

 

As far as what Sherlock could do to Jim to make him call off the assassins ... my mind doesn't go that way, so I really can't imagine. Threasten to poke out his eyes, maybe? That would do it for me. Urgh, can't even think about it.... O_o

 

 

I'm still not convinced that Sherlock's distress, at least, was fake.

 

Me neither! And Sherlock never said he faked his emotions; Moffat said that, in an interview. I suppose he should know, but ... well, you know.  

 

I always thought Sherlock's distress was due to his having to convince John he was a fake, and that would be true no matter how he pulled off The Fall. So I continue to cling to that belief, my only tie to sanity in a cruel and indifferent sea.....

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I always thought Sherlock's distress was due to his having to convince John he was a fake, and that would be true no matter how he pulled off The Fall. So I continue to cling to that belief, my only tie to sanity in a cruel and indifferent sea.....

 

 Yes, exactly. This may have been what I meant, you just put it in far better words, Arcadia.  That's why the real tears during the telephone call....and Sherlock's telling John that "it was a trick, just a magic trick."  I think Sherlock was trying to give John a message a message, that of course John wasn't going to be able to decode in his own distress, if he could even remember it at all in his grief.

 

That is why "TEH" makes more sense to me.

 

 

[Dragonslayer]

 

Re: Moriarty. I see. But what else could Jim expect from Sherlock? ...

but Sherlock on the roof says something like the key code is in his mind

or something. Which is why you can use it to alter records. I didn't

really get where exactly Sherlock thinks the key code is planted.

I think I understand your question. I hope! Sherlock thought he'd

figured out the code, and now it was stored in his head. He could then,

presumably, use the code to hack any computer and change or delete all

of Richard Brook's faked records, and reveal that he was really

Moriarty. Unfortunately, the code didn't really exist, that was just a

trick of Jim's. Is that what you were looking for?

Yes, this is. You mean to say Sherlock had memorized code by seeing Jim tapping on his knees?

 

As far as what Sherlock could do to Jim to make him call off the assassins ... my mind doesn't go that way, so I really can't imagine.

Threasten to poke out his eyes, maybe? That would do it for me. Urgh, can't even think about it.... O_o

Me neither!

[Arcadia]

Yes, that is my understanding. Sherlock has a very good memory, it seems!

[Redbeard]

I agree that Sherlock saying it was just a magic trick was his way of somehow trying to tell John, to comfort John if John would only "think it through".  Oh well.  And I also think his emotional distress / crying was real.  Even if he knew his plan was going to be pulled off flawlessly with no danger, then he also had to have known that he was inflicting pain on his friends, and that he would be leaving his life behind for who knows how long.  I think the reality of the plan was sort of hitting him just then...maybe he even had second thoughts.  But at some point he had to throw that phone down (because if he kept talking to John he might have to back out) and then just go for it.  I really admire him in that scene. 

[sfmpco]

For me anyway, "The Empty Hearse" makes more sense if the emotions Sherlock displayed during "TRF" where real. Along with Caya, I don't believe we have gotten Sherlock's full scoop on what went down on the roof top and Sherlock's claim that he and Mycroft had it all covered. During "TRF" it didn't look like he had everything under control and that he was just passively watching Moriarty take his reputation apart.

 

I agree that he didn't have everything under control.  I think he was truly afraid for his life - which is why he went to Molly to ask for help.  Together they came up with a deception on how to fake his death.  But he was not all right and she knew it, and he admitted it to her - the one person he could trust most of all.  Note also in The Empty Hearse that Lestrade says that Molly was the one who identified his body.  Yeah, right!  LOL  I think his emotions in that episode were quite real, everything from being vulnerable to Molly to furious with Richard Brooks, to having tears running down his face while he stood on the edge of St. Barts.  Since no one could see his tears, there was no reason to fake them.  I think there was true, genuine pain of caring about his friends and that he was having to deceive them.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Since no one could see his tears, there was no reason to fake them.  I think there was true, genuine pain of caring about his friends and that he was having to deceive them.

 

 I absolutely agree with this.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

Since no one could see his tears, there was no reason to fake them.  I think there was true, genuine pain of caring about his friends and that he was having to deceive them.

 

 I absolutely agree with this.

 

 

I still can't really make sense of the tears. It seems so un-Sherlock-like in my eyes for him to cry about putting his friends through that pain. Being bothered about it is one thing, but crying... Yet for him to fake the tears makes no sense either.

 

It's one of those moments, I'm afraid, where I think to myself that it was simply filmed that way in order for us to get more emotionally involved and drawn in by the scene.

[T.o.b.y]

I still can't really make sense of the tears. It seems so un-Sherlock-like in my eyes for him to cry about putting his friends through that pain. Being bothered about it is one thing, but crying... Yet for him to fake the tears makes no sense either.

 

Well, maybe he just wanted his voice to sound teary and distressed, so he cried a bit to get that effect. He was playing a part, after all, and I think it's not uncommon for an actor to really cry etc while doing so, even if the emotion isn't really real.

 

I think it would make more sense, actually, if by the time he's on the rooftop and really going through with the plan to make John his suicide witness, Sherlock doesn't feel much any more. Surely true feeling would get in the way to no end in that situation, and isn't he an expert on blocking that out? My interpretation is that he's much more distressed earlier, when Molly calls him out on looking sad for example. From the time John receives the fake phone call about Mrs Hudson onward (at the very latest), my impression is Sherlock has come to terms with what he (thinks he) has to do and has gone into "machine mode". How else would he be able to stay convincingly dead when John is almost passing out with shock not a foot away from him? How else could he just stand by calmly in the graveyard? Any normal human being with normal human feeling would have stepped out right then and there and told him it was all just an act...

 

This would also explain why, right until the meeting in the restaurant full two years later, Sherlock doesn't really seem to understand the extent of what he's done to his friend, or at least hasn't considered it properly.

 

God, this episode is really an amazing ninety minutes. It's such a shame The Empty Hearse didn't do it justice. At this point, I am almost hoping Moriarty is alive, because then maybe we'll get more insight on The Fall and all that lead up to it.

If he is going to be the adversary again next series, I also hope that this time, John will prove his theory of "friends protect people" and that he will get rid of him. The Holmes boys have had a go, and their method didn't work too well - now I think it's time for the alternative.

 

Hmmm, there are quite a lot of parallels between Moriarty and Magnussen, aren't there? Use of the media, use of "pressure points", contempt for those "ordinary mortals" who surround them, ulterior motive totally unclear but obviously something to do with power, geniuses, use of underlings so they don't have to get their hands dirty themselves, a creepy tendency to lace anything they say with sexual innuendo, the thing about "burning" people... Either the writers were out of ideas, or there's a connection.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Hmmm, there are quite a lot of parallels between Moriarty and Magnussen, aren't there? Use of the media, use of "pressure points", contempt for those "ordinary mortals" who surround them, ulterior motive totally unclear but obviously something to do with power, geniuses, use of underlings so they don't have to get their hands dirty themselves, a creepy tendency to lace anything they say with sexual innuendo, the thing about "burning" people... Either the writers were out of ideas, or there's a connection.

 

 

  I can't believe that as talented as the writers are, and with all the material that they have access to and can pull from....that they could ever run out of ideas. What I heard last night from Moriarty just strengthens my convection that Moriarty and Magnussen were in communication together.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

I still can't really make sense of the tears. It seems so un-Sherlock-like in my eyes for him to cry about putting his friends through that pain. Being bothered about it is one thing, but crying... Yet for him to fake the tears makes no sense either.

 

Well, maybe he just wanted his voice to sound teary and distressed, so he cried a bit to get that effect. He was playing a part, after all, and I think it's not uncommon for an actor to really cry etc while doing so, even if the emotion isn't really real.

 

I think it would make more sense, actually, if by the time he's on the rooftop and really going through with the plan to make John his suicide witness, Sherlock doesn't feel much any more. Surely true feeling would get in the way to no end in that situation, and isn't he an expert on blocking that out? My interpretation is that he's much more distressed earlier, when Molly calls him out on looking sad for example. From the time John receives the fake phone call about Mrs Hudson onward (at the very latest), my impression is Sherlock has come to terms with what he (thinks he) has to do and has gone into "machine mode". How else would he be able to stay convincingly dead when John is almost passing out with shock not a foot away from him? How else could he just stand by calmly in the graveyard? Any normal human being with normal human feeling would have stepped out right then and there and told him it was all just an act...

 

This would also explain why, right until the meeting in the restaurant full two years later, Sherlock doesn't really seem to understand the extent of what he's done to his friend, or at least hasn't considered it properly.

 

God, this episode is really an amazing ninety minutes. It's such a shame The Empty Hearse didn't do it justice. At this point, I am almost hoping Moriarty is alive, because then maybe we'll get more insight on The Fall and all that lead up to it.

If he is going to be the adversary again next series, I also hope that this time, John will prove his theory of "friends protect people" and that he will get rid of him. The Holmes boys have had a go, and their method didn't work too well - now I think it's time for the alternative.

 

 

If the tears are "real" - that is, if they are to make any sense, and not just be for dramatic effect - I agree with your take on them. I also agree that Sherlock has stepped into machine mode at that point. It seems to start happening when he walks out of Kitty's flat and says something like, "there's only one thing he (Moriarty) needs to do, and that's to..." at which point he stops himself. Prior to that, I'm prone to believe his distress for a large part of TRF. However, he might have been exaggerating in front of Moriarty, with his shouting and all.

 

There's so much amazing character stuff in TEH. I guess that's why I love it, despite its' slightly disappointing explanation to the fall. And I say slightly, because I'm not horribly affected by it.

 

One thing is for sure: If Moriarty is back, he cannot be allowed to continue, either. He's too clever and will cause too much trouble. Which is one of two reasons why I hope he's really dead, as I don't wish to see him "die" twice! But then again, villains must always be killed, musn't they... That's how it seems. Whichever villain they bring into series 4 is more or less bound to die. If Moriarty is alive, I hope we get a better explanation to the fall, but I doubt it. At that point, it will have been too long since TRF was made, and the writers and producers are not going to keep dealing with the repercussions - I think.

 

John getting rid of Moriarty... hmm. Wouldn't he just do the obvious and kill him? Again, getting dull... But if it's to save Sherlock, I suppose it might work. Maybe.

[Arcadia]

 

Hmmm, there are quite a lot of parallels between Moriarty and Magnussen, aren't there? Use of the media, use of "pressure points", contempt for those "ordinary mortals" who surround them, ulterior motive totally unclear but obviously something to do with power, geniuses, use of underlings so they don't have to get their hands dirty themselves, a creepy tendency to lace anything they say with sexual innuendo, the thing about "burning" people... Either the writers were out of ideas, or there's a connection.

I'm thinking the connection is, they're both villians, and in Moftiss' mind at least, that's what villians DO.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Villains with a connection to each other I bet.   There are just to many happenstances that point to a connection.  Magnussen, I doubt, would have bothered or cared enough to use the "Burning the heart out of Sherlock" unless someone gave him the idea. Someone who had already threatened to do it.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, maybe he just wanted his voice to sound teary and distressed, so he cried a bit to get that effect. He was playing a part, after all, and I think it's not uncommon for an actor to really cry etc while doing so, even if the emotion isn't really real.

 

I think it would make more sense, actually, if by the time he's on the rooftop and really going through with the plan to make John his suicide witness, Sherlock doesn't feel much any more. Surely true feeling would get in the way to no end in that situation, and isn't he an expert on blocking that out? <snip>

 

This would also explain why, right until the meeting in the restaurant full two years later, Sherlock doesn't really seem to understand the extent of what he's done to his friend, or at least hasn't considered it properly.

 

Thank you, T.o.b.y -- that's the most satisfactory explanation of the tears that I've heard yet -- they're real fake tears, of course! We already know (from "Great Game") that Sherlock is an excellent actor, able to shed tears on demand, but the "Reichenbach" scene makes even more sense if Sherlock is so "into" his play-acting that he weeps without specifically intending to.

 

I also appreciate your explanation of his two-year denial that he's hurt John. He couldn't allow himself to feel, because he had work to do.  And I suppose by the time he's back in London, not-feeling has become such a habit that he doesn't even realize he's still doing it.  Once he does turn his feelings back on, though, he seems to be making up for lost time in "Sign of Three" and "Last Vow."

 

[Arcadia]

 

 

This would also explain why, right until the meeting in the restaurant full two years later, Sherlock doesn't really seem to understand the extent of what he's done to his friend, or at least hasn't considered it properly.

I also appreciate your explanation of his two-year denial that he's hurt John. He couldn't allow himself to feel, because he had work to do.  And I suppose by the time he's back in London, not-feeling has become such a habit that he doesn't even realize he's still doing it.  Once he does turn his feelings back on, though, he seems to be making up for lost time in "Sign of Three" and "Last Vow."

 

 

I implied this rather jokingly before, but upon reflection ... I suspect His Nibs thinks he would have responded quite calmly and logically if the situation were reversed; so he expects John to react "sensibly" too. Not "overreact". (Gawd, I almost split a gut every time I hear him say that. And I notice that Mary seems to agree with Sherlock....)

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

I implied this rather jokingly before, but upon reflection ... I suspect His Nibs thinks he would have responded quite calmly and logically if the situation were reversed; so he expects John to react "sensibly" too. Not "overreact". (Gawd, I almost split a gut every time I hear him say that. And I notice that Mary seems to agree with Sherlock....)

 

Yeah, Mary is way too cool about the whole thing. The alarm bells should have gone off right then and there...

 

 

[Arcadia]

That's funny, the first time I around I'm pretty sure I did think it was odd, the way she reacted. Then I just sort of went, "yeah, it's 'cause she's cool." (Cool as in awesome, not cool as in cold.

[Carol the Dabbler]

That's funny -- I don't see her as reacting coldly or as being more sympathetic to Sherlock than to John -- more like trying to be a liaison between them, to help them understand each other so they can reconnect.

 

Maybe I see it that way because that's my typical reaction in a bewildering or upsetting situation -- I try to figure out why this happened and where to go from here, while the immediate reaction of a certain husband of mine (not mentioning any names!) tends to be more overtly emotional -- so he sometimes assumes that my analytical reaction means I don't care.