Shoot the Wall (A.K.A. The Rant Thread)

[Pseudonym]

I worry though that a lot of the people who seem to be voting for extremist parties are angry young men. Which means the younger generations aren't exactly shining examples of championing equality either.

 

And yes, I think someone going out of their way to open a door for me would weird me out a bit too. It's nice if it's natural, they're going through the door just ahead of you, but if they trotted ahead like you said I'd find it a bit odd. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I worry though that a lot of the people who seem to be voting for extremist parties are angry young men. Which means the younger generations aren't exactly shining examples of championing equality either.

 

Angry young men and bitter young women -- maybe their votes will cancel out one another, so that the rest of us can actually elect someone who's at least palatable!

[Arcadia]

I think I've always felt that "harassment" is when the unwanted behavior persists, especially if the recipient has made it clear the attention is unwanted. A single leer or inappropriate comment may be uncomfortable or gross, but I'd hesitate to classify it as harassment unless it happened again. 
 
I remember one lady where I used to work would complain about the "dirty" way some of the men would talk to her ... but I found it hard to have sympathy for her, because she talked the same way right back to them. She appeared, to me at least, to be quite enjoying herself. I always thought that if she'd out and out told them to stop talking to her that way she'd have got a lot further along.
 
Physical contact, on the other hand ... it's hard for me to see how that could ever be appropriate unless you've established some sort of relationship beforehand, even if it's of the "we share the same watercooler" variety. Unless you're shaking hands with a newcomer or rescuing someone from a flood, of course. In those cases I rather think the physical contact would be expected, maybe even welcome.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think I've always felt that "harassment" is when the unwanted behavior persists, especially if the recipient has made it clear the attention is unwanted. A single leer or inappropriate comment may be uncomfortable or gross, but I'd hesitate to classify it as harassment unless it happened again. 

 

I remember one lady where I used to work would complain about the "dirty" way some of the men would talk to her ... but I found it hard to have sympathy for her, because she talked the same way right back to them. She appeared, to me at least, to be quite enjoying herself. I always thought that if she'd out and out told them to stop talking to her that way she'd have got a lot further along.

 

Physical contact, on the other hand ... it's hard for me to see how that could ever be appropriate unless you've established some sort of relationship beforehand, even if it's of the "we share the same watercooler" variety. Unless you're shaking hands with a newcomer or rescuing someone from a flood, of course. In those cases I rather think the physical contact would be expected, maybe even welcome.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your first two paragraphs, but I'm not sure exactly what you meant in the third.  Are you saying that you would consider physical contact other than an initial handshake to be sexual harassment unless you were already somewhat acquainted with the person?  I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that most workplace sexual harassment comes from people that one knows and works with (or works *for*).  It'd be really odd to be touched the least bit inappropriately by a complete stranger (though it did happen to me once, on the street, ).

 

As for people one works with or is at least generally aware of in the workplace, I can think of a number of modes of physical contact that I would consider perfectly innocuous, and perhaps you would too:

 

How about a pat on the back?  Most people appreciate that, or at least appreciate the sentiment behind it.  Of course, some men seem to interpret a woman's "back" a bit differently from the way I do -- a bit lower, y'know.  Then it becomes a matter of interpretation (and just *how* low).  A pat on the head would be safer (albeit probably a bit patronizing, but that's another issue).

 

And there's the comradely punch on the shoulder, which should be safe enough (assuming that they remember to pull the punch -- but even if they don't, it could hardly be called *sexual* harassment).

 

Oh, and who could object to a "high five"?

[Pseudonym]

I object. The high-five is not so bad, since there's a bit more distance, but I really don't like being touched. There are very few people that I'm actually comfortable enough with that I'm okay with it, and even then I can't say I'm much of a fan. I think I've gone stretches of time (literally months) without touching anyone, and been fine with it (I've also gone weeks without speaking to anyone, and been fine with that too, would have been longer given the chance).

Of course I don't consider general touch to be sexual harassment, I agree your examples are innocuous, but I still don't want anyone patting me, or friendly punching me, or rubbing my arm, which a (female) stranger did once and still makes me uncomfortable to think about. I just don't like anyone being in my space. I don't tend to verbally object if someone does reach out, because I know my level of aversion is probably unusual, but I do tend to flinch away. If I've decided or know I'm going to touch someone it's fine - like handshakes don't bother me other than that fear of having a sweaty palm and grossing someone out, but I don't like it sprung on me when it's not necessary. 

 

I might be wrong, but I don't think Arcadia is saying any touch is harassment, just that there's no real reason to be going around touching people you work with. 

[Arcadia]

Yeah, that's what I meant ... certain kinds of touching are acceptable in social/work/etc. situations, and certain kinds ain't ... and it shouldn't be that hard to figure out which is which. I'm half asleep when I'm on the forum these days, I make even less sense than usual. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

That makes two of us!  Maybe we add up to one intelligible person?

[Arcadia]

Okay, I had a decent night's sleep finally, and took another look at what I'd written (while half asleep. ) I agree I wasn't very clear. I think what I was trying to get at was that inappropriate touching seems to me to be on a different level than inappropriate looks or language. That is, if a stranger says to me (as one once did) "Would you have sex with me?" I might feel offended or even alarmed, depending on the circumstances. (Or I might do as I did for real, and burst out laughing.) But I don't know that I would necessarily feel harassed, unless and until it became something that was repeated. But if someone touched me in an inappropriate way ... to me, that may very well be harassment, even if it's the first time they've done it. A "decent" person, imo, should know better than to do that.
 
The problem, of course, is not everyone has the same definition of inappropriate touching. Certainly someone sticking their hand under my blouse or down my pants, both of which have happened to me, I find wayyyyy over the line, but I saw girls in college laughing at things like that. A 50-something boss I barely knew putting his arm around 21-year-old me? It made me uncomfortable, but nothing else he said or did made me think he meant anything "bad" by it. But I can see why someone else might find it wholly out of line. On the other hand, a complete stranger gave me a hug the other day because ... well, it's too complicated to explain, but I appreciated the gesture; at that moment in time, I needed a hug. And he did ask first if I wanted one.
 
So as hard as it can be to do so, I do tend to lean towards the idea that the person being offended has an onus to make it clear, through words or actions, that the attention they are getting is unwanted. But I don't want to be too absolute about that, because I'm sure there are situations where resisting or revealing harassment is more dangerous than putting up with it. Agh, it's all so complicated. Why can't people just behave?

[Pseudonym]

We've got the previous owners of the business coming in for a visit today. They are okay, but they are a bit irritating, and I'm easily irritated. Hopefully it'll just be a flyby visit. 

[Boton]

You guys, I am so burnt out right now.  I got into my office today and immediately had a panic attack.  Like, I can hardly stand the thought of working all day again today, and then working all day again tomorrow. I'm so tired of having to think all the bloody time.

 

One of these days I'm going to snap and go fulfill my threat to get a manufacturing assembly job where I can just do a job, clock out, and go home and forget it until the next day. The feeling of producing something tangible would be a plus too.

[Pseudonym]

Can you book a few days off? In my old job I would work non-stop until I felt like I would explode if I was there one more second and then book a week off. 

[Boton]

I've got a vacation scheduled in 3 weeks.  It worked really well last year to break up the Thanksgiving-Christmas crazy by just leaving town for a week.  I swear, once I get there, I'm going to talk to no one but my hubby, and I'm just going to sit in a lounge chair and read books that I want to read for a change.

[T.o.b.y]

Boton, you're self-employed, do I remember that correctly? Is it really impossible for you to take a day off sooner? I can imagine you might actually get that time back through being able to work more efficiently afterwards...

[Boton]

Yes, Toby, you're right.  I'm self-employed.  Somehow, I lost control of the pattern I used to have when I first started working for myself. I used to take every Friday afternoon off.  Now, it seems that I do work on my own projects on Friday morning, but I spend all Friday afternoon running errands and catching up on the stuff that no one had a chance to do during the week.

 

But you are right.  I need a day off.  Especially this week, with Thanksgiving. Everyone who is employed by someone else will get a 4 or 5 day weekend, and I will try to cram cooking for the holiday and decorating the Christmas tree into a week in which I try to work full days on both the holiday and the day after.  Something's gotta give.  

[Hikari]

Yes, Toby, you're right.  I'm self-employed.  Somehow, I lost control of the pattern I used to have when I first started working for myself. I used to take every Friday afternoon off.  Now, it seems that I do work on my own projects on Friday morning, but I spend all Friday afternoon running errands and catching up on the stuff that no one had a chance to do during the week.

 

But you are right.  I need a day off.  Especially this week, with Thanksgiving. Everyone who is employed by someone else will get a 4 or 5 day weekend, and I will try to cram cooking for the holiday and decorating the Christmas tree into a week in which I try to work full days on both the holiday and the day after.  Something's gotta give.  

 

So my curiosity is piqued.  Boton, do you mind sharing what it is you employ yourself at?  I'm new to town here so if you've mentioned it before, I missed it.

 

I view the self-employed with envy, mostly.  But then I remind myself that you have to work 4x harder than a salaried employee to be a success because you are *not* guaranteed a paycheck.  I need someone else to impose structure upon my workday because I know what happens when I'm left to my own devices . . . I stay in my pajamas all day and read books.  I do wish I had more autonomy over my own time, however.  The traditional 8 - 5 office structure is not the most conducive to my personal style or happiness.  I'm in a public services job and we are open 6 days a week.  So that's nights, Saturdays not my own, and they are variable, so it's hard to commit to any social plans far in advance--I might have to work.  And summer is the busiest time of year in my field, so there's no carefree fun in the sun for me that time of year.

 

But the idea of being my own boss is highly attractive.  And not having to put up with toxic people in my office, of which there are quite a few.  Not to mention the public characters that walk in. 

[Boton]

 

So my curiosity is piqued.  Boton, do you mind sharing what it is you employ yourself at?  I'm new to town here so if you've mentioned it before, I missed it.

 

I view the self-employed with envy, mostly.  But then I remind myself that you have to work 4x harder than a salaried employee to be a success because you are *not* guaranteed a paycheck.  I need someone else to impose structure upon my workday because I know what happens when I'm left to my own devices . . . I stay in my pajamas all day and read books.  I do wish I had more autonomy over my own time, however.  The traditional 8 - 5 office structure is not the most conducive to my personal style or happiness.  I'm in a public services job and we are open 6 days a week.  So that's nights, Saturdays not my own, and they are variable, so it's hard to commit to any social plans far in advance--I might have to work.  And summer is the busiest time of year in my field, so there's no carefree fun in the sun for me that time of year.

 

But the idea of being my own boss is highly attractive.  And not having to put up with toxic people in my office, of which there are quite a few.  Not to mention the public characters that walk in. 

 

 

Hikari, I probably haven't said since you joined, so it's buried somewhere.  I'm a writer, and I also teach part time at the college level. I shouldn't complain: it's exactly what I want to do, I have good clients and interesting work, and I have time for my own writing projects.

 

Obviously, the problem is that I have to be 100% engaged intellectually, or work doesn't get done. Deadlines are hard and fast, class comes around whether I am prepped or not, and my books don't get written unless I set myself a schedule and stick to it. And this all has to keep going to make money; scheduling time off means effectively scheduling a break in payments somewhere down the road because no work was done during that week/fortnight/month and therefore no payments are forthcoming for that time.

 

On the other hand, I can't stand being in someone else's office all day long, and I can't stand having other people set 100% of my goals and priorities.  So, self-employment it is.  I just need to be better about building in time for myself.  

[Artemis]

This is more a question than a rant, but there's an owl that lives in the woods around me.  I can hear it hooting through my wall.  Do you suppose an owl would attempt to pick up a fluffy 3-4 lb. dog?  My other dog is also small, but about 8 lbs., which I hope would look too big to an owl.  I am a teensy bit worried for them though, especially the smaller dog.  I'd love to let them stay outside and sniff to their hearts' content, but I'm afraid something would happen to them if I weren't standing guard.

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

I think it would depend on the kind of owl but you're right to be careful. Even if it couldn't pick your little dog up, it's not impossible that they would get into a fight if it tried. Seems to me such a scenario would be very unlikely but not impossible.

[Pseudonym]

Seconded, depends on the type of owl.

[Arcadia]

You guys, I am so burnt out right now.  I got into my office today and immediately had a panic attack.  Like, I can hardly stand the thought of working all day again today, and then working all day again tomorrow. I'm so tired of having to think all the bloody time.

 

One of these days I'm going to snap and go fulfill my threat to get a manufacturing assembly job where I can just do a job, clock out, and go home and forget it until the next day. The feeling of producing something tangible would be a plus too.

Oh boy, do I hear you. I've been in a very similar boat lately and there's been a couple of times recently where I turned into this:

 

Only less calm. I tend to wail at the gods.

 

You need to reclaim that Friday afternoon, imo, no matter what else you have to give up to do it. Except sleep, don't give up sleep. But make your off time sacrosanct. We introverts need it. It's either that, or the shrink ....

[Arcadia]

I have a bit of a rant, will it EVER stop raining?!

 

Nope, sorry, the rain's here to stay. In fact, I think I heard that a particular cloud has been assigned to you to follow you around for the rest of your life. Better buy a wetsuit.

 

:p

 

If it's any consolation, that's the weather we were having here last week. You can keep it.

[Pseudonym]

You turned into Sherlock?! :O That is impressive! 

 

I already have a wetsuit, which is something I suppose. By the by, I wish they made them easier to get into.

[Boton]

 

Oh boy, do I hear you. I've been in a very similar boat lately and there's been a couple of times recently where I turned into this:

 

Only less calm. I tend to wail at the gods.

 

You need to reclaim that Friday afternoon, imo, no matter what else you have to give up to do it. Except sleep, don't give up sleep. But make your off time sacrosanct. We introverts need it. It's either that, or the shrink ....

 

 

I do indeed.  I woke up this morning with a screaming migraine, which is usually nature's way of saying that I'll be taking the day off whether I want to or not.  So, I figure it is nearly nap time. 

 

And then, yeah.  Fridays for reading and catching up on me stuff.

[Hikari]

 

 

So my curiosity is piqued.  Boton, do you mind sharing what it is you employ yourself at?  I'm new to town here so if you've mentioned it before, I missed it.

 

I view the self-employed with envy, mostly.  But then I remind myself that you have to work 4x harder than a salaried employee to be a success because you are *not* guaranteed a paycheck.  I need someone else to impose structure upon my workday because I know what happens when I'm left to my own devices . . . I stay in my pajamas all day and read books.  I do wish I had more autonomy over my own time, however.  The traditional 8 - 5 office structure is not the most conducive to my personal style or happiness.  I'm in a public services job and we are open 6 days a week.  So that's nights, Saturdays not my own, and they are variable, so it's hard to commit to any social plans far in advance--I might have to work.  And summer is the busiest time of year in my field, so there's no carefree fun in the sun for me that time of year.

 

But the idea of being my own boss is highly attractive.  And not having to put up with toxic people in my office, of which there are quite a few.  Not to mention the public characters that walk in. 

 

 

Hikari, I probably haven't said since you joined, so it's buried somewhere.  I'm a writer, and I also teach part time at the college level. I shouldn't complain: it's exactly what I want to do, I have good clients and interesting work, and I have time for my own writing projects.

 

Obviously, the problem is that I have to be 100% engaged intellectually, or work doesn't get done. Deadlines are hard and fast, class comes around whether I am prepped or not, and my books don't get written unless I set myself a schedule and stick to it. And this all has to keep going to make money; scheduling time off means effectively scheduling a break in payments somewhere down the road because no work was done during that week/fortnight/month and therefore no payments are forthcoming for that time.

 

On the other hand, I can't stand being in someone else's office all day long, and I can't stand having other people set 100% of my goals and priorities.  So, self-employment it is.  I just need to be better about building in time for myself.  

 

 

Boton,

Thanks for the reply.  You are pretty much living the life I wish I had . . .though I have had to accept that I am not going to have the giant literary career I dreamt of in my youth.  If I am ever to write and get published, I'm going to have to do it while employed full time by Da Man and somehow wring out enough juice from the few hours a day I have to myself and from my aging bod that just wants to retreat under the covers after work with a glass of vino and a book!

 

My Obi-Wan of Sherlockiness, David Marcum, manages to be a stunningly prolific author and editor while holding down a full-time job as a civil engineer.  Apparently Sherlock Holmes doesn't pay anybody really well except Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.  Don't ask me how DM does it all and still manages to sleep.  I just need to stop whining and Do It!!  No excuses.  Excuses are boring.  Doesn't change the fact that I just want to hibernate like a bear in these dark early evenings.  I've idly wondered if I started taking cocaine if that would perk me up to David Marcum levels of productivity.  But that's just a rhetorical wondering . . I can't afford narcotics, even if I was willing to break the law, which I'm not.  And then there's the whole thing about drugs being really bad for you.  My legal drug, coffee, can only take me so far, however.  It's a dilemma!

 

[Pseudonym]

God I'm bored, this day is never ending.