Shoot the Wall (A.K.A. The Rant Thread)

[Carol the Dabbler]

He kept saying that a buddy of his owned one of those places that repair car radiators, so that would be my first guess. I'm just glad he's gone, because I really like this particular garage otherwise.

Come to think of it, they had another incompetent mechanic there, years ago. He screwed up my exhaust system (even worse than it had been when I brought the car in). I brought the car back and told the owner that it still didn't work. Shortly afterwards, I heard him giving the mechanic a rather large (and loud!) piece of his mind. The guy did make it somewhat better, but next time I was there, he was gone.

It always seems to be the braggarts who are incompetent. The ones who really are good don't need to say so because their work speaks for itself.

[Pseudonym]

You're like the inspector, weeding out the crap ones.

 

Why do some people insist on talking to you when you're wearing headphones? I think headphones are a pretty clear sign that you don't want to talk. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

You're like the inspector, weeding out the crap ones.

 

Maybe I should had out badges for the good mechanics to wear: "Inspected by No. 6."

 

 

Why do some people insist on talking to you when you're wearing headphones? I think headphones are a pretty clear sign that you don't want to talk. 

 

Maybe they take it as merely a sign that you're bored and want something to listen to until you need to listen to something more important, such as what they have to say.  Which does make a certain amount of sense.

 

I believe some people use headphones kind of automatically, the same way some people just automatically turn on the radio or tv, even if they're in the middle of a conversation that they're clearly engaged in.  I've never understood that, but perhaps your intruder assumes that's all you're doing.

 

As for how to deal with it -- short of wearing a Do Not Disturb sign around your neck -- I have no idea.

[T.o.b.y]

I do wish people would stop giving me the German translation of books originally written in English. I do not like translations. I want the author's own words if I can understand them. (If not, then of course a translation is fine).

 

I don't reject or criticize gifts because I think that's rude and I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. But now I have to go and buy the original version of the books that were given to me so that I can bring myself to read them and properly answer the givers' questions as to whether I have finished and how I liked them.

 

Bother.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Since the people who are giving you these books are presumably German, and since Germany seems to be really big on translating everything (e.g., Sherlock), it probably just never occurs to the givers that anyone might want the original English version -- even if they are aware that you speak fluent English.  Are English-language books even readily available in German bookstores?

 

Your solution is perfectly logical, but it cracks me up nonetheless!

[Pseudonym]

Perhaps if I write 'sod off' across my forehead with eyeliner people will get the message. 

 

I always find that with translated books. There are ones that people rave about, and I read them and just get the feeling I'm missing something, that some of the magic has vanished in translation. I read 'The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' and found it really hard to get into and just lacking the impact it should have had. Maybe it just wasn't my thing, but the plot was good, I just felt the prose was lacking. 

[T.o.b.y]

:-D Pseud, I actually wrote "sod off" on my forehead with my finger just now, to see if I could do it backwards so that it would be readable.

 

Carol, yes, you can get books in other languages in most German bookstores but the selection is typically very small.

 

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo... Yeah, I read that trilogy in English because I don't understand Swedish, and I agree, it wasn't anything special prose-wise. I also saw the Swedish movie version, in Swedish with subtitles, and got much more out of that. Not the kind of fiction I would usually like but I did enjoy it, mostly because of Lisbeth. And the actress who played her did a fantastic job. I have no desire to see the remake.

[Pseudonym]

Did it work? I was going to say 'sod off, I'm not interested' but decided it would have to be too small to be legible. :D

 

I've seen the American version but not the Swedish one. Was okay. 

[J.P.]

In small places it's quite hard to get books in English. They are mostly at big train stations' bookstores that also have foreign newspapers. The best way to get a book in English might be Amazon&co, but it's an additional effort and they can be ridiculously expensive.

 

 

Note to self: look for the illustrated "How to Stop Time", the book BC wants to make into a film. 

[T.o.b.y]

Did it work? I was going to say 'sod off, I'm not interested' but decided it would have to be too small to be legible. :D

 

I've seen the American version but not the Swedish one. Was okay.

It certainly didn't work on my reflection... That's the only person I tested it on.

 

If you liked the books, give the Swedish movies a try. I thought they were awesome. And that's me saying it who usually doesn't like horror and violence.

 

As for where to get books, I really miss the library in the city I lived in as a student. They had a foreign language section that was much larger than I have seen in any German store and the membership cost next to nothing.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Perhaps if I write 'sod off' across my forehead with eyeliner people will get the message.

Nope, I wouldn't get it. Back then I didn't really understand what it means, I only understood it roughly from the context of the scene.

 

What about 'I BITE' or 'BACK OFF' or 'I'm not fond of people, so shut up and don't talk to me or you'd regret the day you were born' in font 12. Red spray paint sends better message than eyeliner imo. :p

 

 

 

I think back then you guys were talking about harassment. To me, whatever makes you uncomfortable in that way could be considered as potential harassment.

I actually almost always wish that I have ability to disguise myself as a big burly man as and when I want to, so that I feel safer everywhere.

I remember a friend and I were talking about which cinema was out favorite to catch movie, and he recommended a place that was great but in shady neighborhood. I had to explain, and hate that I feel that way but it's true, that the way he experiences going to that kind of neighborhood alone is pretty much different with me going alone.

I hate that I have to be extra careful and paranoid (eventhough it's proven good to be paranoid) I really really want to feel just like The Rock walking into a place that no one would try to mess with or cat calling or impolite stare and comment or stalking or those craps.

 

Worse, just yesterday two acquaintances were talking about woman beating up a man who picked the wrong target. Starting with admiration with the woman, it ended with comment that 'she shouldn't dress that way', which by description, it sounds pretty normal, it was professional working setting, and why on earth women can't dress the way they want to without being blamed when harassment occurs? Geez.

 

It's a mixed feeling reading those news nowadays, cringing because it's way too common everywhere and smirking because some shitty people are squirming in their seats wondering if they'll be exposed too.

See if it's worth it, monsters.

[T.o.b.y]

"Whatever makes me uncomfortable" isn't a useful definition of harassment to me personally because I have social anxiety and feel uncomfortable all the time around people. It would mean I am being continually harassed and might as well sue the whole town.

 

This makes it hard for me to identify, let alone call out, actual harassment, especially when it's aimed at me and not another person.

[Van Buren Supernova]

You forgot to include "in that way" from my original quote following the sentence, which means, in sexual ways, since we were talking about sexual harassment, and it's 'potential' harassment in my quote.

 

Social anxiety is different thing, and as we probably know from reading around and being here for quite some time, big percentage of us are not very comfortable around people. But that's not what I was talking about.

[T.o.b.y]

You forgot to include "in that way" from my original quote following the sentence, which means, in sexual ways, since we were talking about sexual harassment, and it's 'potential' harassment in my quote.

 

Social anxiety is different thing, and as we probably know from reading around and being here for quite some time, big percentage of us are not very comfortable around people. But that's not what I was talking about.

Oh, sorry, I wasn't referring to your comment specifically. It's just something I am coming across in articles etc a lot these days, "whatever makes you feel uncomfortable", and it always makes me go well, that's not going to help me personally very much.

 

I find it easier to spot behavior that pretty clearly crosses a line when the target is another person. If it's myself, I usually assume I am being silly or just imagining things because come on, who would be interested in me? But if it's a friend being leered at or cat-called or having her personal space invaded, I am quick enough to determine that it's not okay and to try and do something about it.

 

I remember once when I was little, I was at an evening event at my school with my mother and this guy whom she was having a conversation with kept touching her and getting closer and closer. I didn't like it one bit although I didn't know why and I started acting up, getting whiny and obnoxious, interrupting, pulling at her sleeve, trying to get at her purse, etc. We were talking about this the other day and she said she was glad to have me as an excuse to get away from him. She says she was impressed by my intuition because I was usually fairly well behaved in public.

[Arcadia]

I come to see and I smell.. oops.

 

How would Pseud get more practice when she doesn't go to the wild that often?

Well, you have cats.. there are litterbox..

 

Alright...let's rant about something else.

 

O thank God. 

:d

 

You're like the inspector, weeding out the crap ones.

 

Why do some people insist on talking to you when you're wearing headphones? I think headphones are a pretty clear sign that you don't want to talk. 

 

Usually with me it's because I didn't notice they were wearing headphones, or because I'm trying to warn them of the oncoming rhinoceros that is about to gore them.

 

In small places it's quite hard to get books in English. They are mostly at big train stations' bookstores that also have foreign newspapers. The best way to get a book in English might be Amazon&co, but it's an additional effort and they can be ridiculously expensive.

Note to self: look for the illustrated "How to Stop Time", the book BC wants to make into a film. 

 

I don't know, every time I read about the plot of that book it sounds like an episode of Highlander.....

 

I'm interested in the topic of what is and isn't sexual harassment, but alas have no time right now to get into it. But I hope something good comes out of the attention it's receiving right now. I fear, though, that it's just the flavor of the month ... pretty soon the media will be obsessing about something else and women will go back to being largely ignored when they complain about men's behavior.

[T.o.b.y]

Either that or the topic will be hijacked and twisted by people who have no real interest in any kind of solution or progress and just want to yell at each other. I see this happening already.

[Van Buren Supernova]

No worries Tob.

 

I guess it's pretty hard to determine what is and isn't sexual harassment because imho it's different with everyone.

 

Those who had experienced unpleasant encounter, even when the worse didn't happen, if someone had made unwanted advance and in doing so tried to corner them to the wall or grabbed their arm, they would eventually react more strongly to these similar approaches even when the other party didn't mean to harras them because of association and insecurity, uncomfortable memory or trauma they had.

 

Some also have different level of comfortable. For example, when I was new to current workplace, there was a guy who liked to touch my hand and arms while talking. I barely knew him. Later I noticed he did it to others and they didn't mind. He didn't get my cringing and body language so after the third or forth I snapped don't touch me!. He was surprised at my tone, and I believe until that second he thought his advance was welcomed, or he got used to his behavior being okay. Same with him, I probably don't even categorize this as harassment but it's very poor manner that could easily lead to that when the other party is oblivious that he/she is not welcomed and the target is not comfortable.

Which, alarmingly are excuses used by many, that leads me to think are men really dumb or they just ignore and it's all cover-up bullshit?

Both options are terrifying.

 

Anyway, after that, he actually didn't even dare to make conversation unless he had to, which was very fine by me. However, it's not uncommon that some women later on admitted that they were uncomfortable but didn't know how to react, which is again, sounds very familiar to those stories out there.

 

I hope something good comes out of the attention it's receiving right now. I fear, though, that it's just the flavor of the month ... pretty soon the media will be obsessing about something else and women will go back to being largely ignored when they complain about men's behavior.

Actually I feel optimistic about all this being better in the future, fingers crossed. As much as I dislike the negativity of social medias, this is where they could have very positive impact; to give regular people voices, and as channel to relate to each other. The more people come forward, the better it is, to educate those seemingly clueless/clueless pretenders that those are not okay.

It could be misused, obviously, but everything is.

 

And as we see the impacts, boycotted, criminal charges, reputation ruined, potential perpetrator would think twice before they do something questionable. People are more daring to speak up against the previously powerful and untouchable.

[Pseudonym]

In my old job I had a couple of people who would follow me around still trying it on even after I made it clear I wasn't interested. Sometimes they seem to think you're just playing hard to get. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think back then you guys were talking about harassment. To me, whatever makes you uncomfortable in that way could be considered as potential harassment.

 

"Whatever makes you uncomfortable" would be a good definition of what you perceive as harassment.  Unfortunately, it's not very helpful in a legal sense, though, because different people are made uncomfortable by different things (and the flip side, different people consider different things to be perfectly harmless and normal).    This is especially true when comparing men to women, of course, but even different women are comfortable / uncomfortable with different things.  Short of things that pretty much *everyone* considers either OK or out of bounds, I'm not sure how we could arrive at a useful definition.

 

Either that or the topic will be hijacked and twisted by people who have no real interest in any kind of solution or progress and just want to yell at each other. I see this happening already.

I'm not sure exactly the sort of thing you're talking about, but I do think a lot of self-styled "feminists" are mostly wanting to stir things up and make trouble.  Even though some changes would be good, I'd hate to see it get to the point where a man is afraid to open a door for a woman or do a little gentle flirting.

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I'm trying to teach johnspec to hold the door and the proper way to do it if multiple people are going through the door: a man holds the door for any female as well as any male older than them. For example: johnspec holds the door for me, my 4 year old niece, his aunts, his uncles, & grandparents, but my 2 nephews would in turn take over holding the door if there were more people who needed to get through. The exception would be if the male were physically unable to hold open the door for whatever practical reason (e.g. disabled, helping someone else who's disabled, hands full of whatever they're carrying).

[T.o.b.y]

 

I think back then you guys were talking about harassment. To me, whatever makes you uncomfortable in that way could be considered as potential harassment.

"Whatever makes you uncomfortable" would be a good definition of what you perceive as harassment. Unfortunately, it's not very helpful in a legal sense, though, because different people are made uncomfortable by different things (and the flip side, different people consider different things to be perfectly harmless and normal). This is especially true when comparing men to women, of course, but even different women are comfortable / uncomfortable with different things. Short of things that pretty much *everyone* considers either OK or out of bounds, I'm not sure how we could arrive at a useful definition.

Either that or the topic will be hijacked and twisted by people who have no real interest in any kind of solution or progress and just want to yell at each other. I see this happening already.

I'm not sure exactly the sort of thing you're talking about, but I do think a lot of self-styled "feminists" are mostly wanting to stir things up and make trouble. Even though some changes would be good, I'd hate to see it get to the point where a man is afraid to open a door for a woman or do a little gentle flirting.

Now, now, Carol, I do like to think of myself as fairly feminist and I assure you, I am actually rather conflict-averse - too much so in many cases.

 

What I meant was that these past few days, no, weeks and months, my primary (perfectly respectable, moderate) news sources have been full of opinion pieces that, on one side, boil down to "all men are pigs and if they look at me the wrong way I want the legal right to castrate them personally" and on the other side "all women are hysterical b....s who have been brainwashed by the eeeeevil feminist / gay / other hated group of choice agenda, they will destroy our lives if we don't turn back time and take all their rights away again!"

 

Meanwhile, I am still struggling to understand just the issue at hand. Do we need to change our sexual harassment laws? Or is there "just" a problem with how they are (not) enforced? Are we even talking about legal matters or are we aiming for social change? And how can we find a solution where the fewest possible people are afraid to interact with each other?

 

As for opening doors etc, I certainly don't expect it, but unless it is done in a clearly very sarcastic and demeaning way, I think it's a nice gesture regardless of who is doing it for whom. I hold doors for all sorts of people, especially elderly folks with canes or walkers, mothers with babies, anybody who is carrying a lot of stuff and yes, also male colleagues and relatives. And if someone does it for me, I smile and say thank you. Why does common courtesy have to be about anybody's gender?

 

People are interesting for sure but also so confusing.

[Artemis]

I don't think I realized that door-holding etiquette still had all those rules attached. I just hold the door open for anyone close enough behind me.

[Pseudonym]

Yep, ditto. 

[Pseudonym]

I think a lot of this, harassment and etiquette, is that people should just need to be more thoughtful. 

 

Etiquette - be nicer! I remember once I was running for a train and the handle of my bag snapped, all my stuff fell out everywhere, and as it happened I was going past a group of men about my age (twenty something at the time), and rather than helping they all just had a right good loud laugh and carried on walking. They weren't rushing, they'd all come off the train, and seriously why is my bag breaking and spilling open that hilarious anyway? It's not just the not helping, but the pointedly not helping that gets me. 

 

For harassment people just need to pay attention to their actions and actually stop and think. If someone looks uncomfortable when you say or do something, don't do it. If you wouldn't like someone doing it to you, or a family member, don't do it. For gross pervey old men, how would you feel if someone said or did that to your daughter?

 

As for laws, I don't see how harassment could be prosecuted except for when it turns physical. But there should be a system in place in all work places where people can report something they feel uncomfortable with. It might be the person doing it doesn't even realise others don't like it (until they snap 'don't touch me!' like VBS :D), and just need someone, a boss, HR, whatever to tell them to reel it in. If they carry on doing it, they either get a warning or get fired. Of course, the problem with a lot of these stories is that it's the boss who's the one being inappropriate and there's no one above them to tell.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... these past few days, no, weeks and months, my primary (perfectly respectable, moderate) news sources have been full of opinion pieces that, on one side, boil down to "all men are pigs and if they look at me the wrong way I want the legal right to castrate them personally" and on the other side "all women are hysterical b....s who have been brainwashed by the eeeeevil feminist / gay / other hated group of choice agenda, they will destroy our lives if we don't turn back time and take all their rights away again!"

Meanwhile, I am still struggling to understand just the issue at hand. Do we need to change our sexual harassment laws? Or is there "just" a problem with how they are (not) enforced? Are we even talking about legal matters or are we aiming for social change? And how can we find a solution where the fewest possible people are afraid to interact with each other?

 

Yes, that's exactly the sort of mess I was talking about!  My gut feeling is that it's mostly a matter of education and/or just waiting for the older generations to die off.  The only problem with the "education" idea is -- who gets to decide what's right and who needs to be educated?  I certainly wouldn't want the decisions to be in the hands of either of those two groups that you mentioned!  So maybe we'll automatically default to the die-off solution -- though I fear that even getting rid of the current crop of male chauvinist pigs wouldn't satisfy the "there's absolutely no difference between women and men, except that women are clearly superior" crowd.

 

Maybe the real problem is the current feeling that *everything* is a legal matter, so if there's a problem, the answer is a new law.

 

I don't think I realized that door-holding etiquette still had all those rules attached. I just hold the door open for anyone close enough behind me.

 

That makes perfect sense to me, and in fact I kind of expect it from others -- so I tend to be unpleasantly surprised by people (including some perfectly nice individuals) who open it only for themselves and then let it fly back in my face.  (Same thing with low tree branches on forest trails, by the way.)  I will admit that I'm almost equally annoyed by knee-jerk door openers, either male or female, who will clearly go out of their way to hold a door for me even when I'm not carrying anything.  I assume it's the "older person" rule that Camper mentioned, but they're taking it to (in my opinion) extremes, making a mad dash to get to the door before I do.  They may be younger than me, but I'm clearly capable of opening a door!

 

I think a lot of this, harassment and etiquette, is that people should just need to be more thoughtful. 

 

Etiquette - be nicer! I remember once I was running for a train and the handle of my bag snapped, all my stuff fell out everywhere, and as it happened I was going past a group of men about my age (twenty something at the time), and rather than helping they all just had a right good loud laugh and carried on walking. They weren't rushing, they'd all come off the train, and seriously why is my bag breaking and spilling open that hilarious anyway? It's not just the not helping, but the pointedly not helping that gets me. 

 

For harassment people just need to pay attention to their actions and actually stop and think. If someone looks uncomfortable when you say or do something, don't do it. If you wouldn't like someone doing it to you, or a family member, don't do it. For gross pervey old men, how would you feel if someone said or did that to your daughter?

 

As for laws, I don't see how harassment could be prosecuted except for when it turns physical. But there should be a system in place in all work places where people can report something they feel uncomfortable with. It might be the person doing it doesn't even realise others don't like it (until they snap 'don't touch me!' like VBS :D), and just need someone, a boss, HR, whatever to tell them to reel it in. If they carry on doing it, they either get a warning or get fired. Of course, the problem with a lot of these stories is that it's the boss who's the one being inappropriate and there's no one above them to tell.

 

Yup, all very sensible.  *sigh*  Too bad you're not queen of the world or something!

 

This has nothing to do with sexual harassment, but Alex once worked at a place where the general manager and the engineering manager were both convinced that engineers (including Alex) are a bunch of lazy so-and-so's who need the whip cracked on a regular basis.  Unbeknownst to them, engineers tend to be pretty self-motived -- they're engineers because they actually enjoy doing that sort of work!  So all those two individuals succeeded in doing was to gradually destroy every shred of morale.

 

Fortunately, this place was a division of a larger corporation, and the HR department reported directly to corporate headquarters -- so anyone with a grievance against their boss could talk to HR without fear of being fired.  Alex started doing that, and encouraging others to do the same.  Things didn't change immediately, but once he and a few other people actually quit, both managers were booted out.