Episode 3.1, "The Empty Hearse"

[J.P.]

Before I saw the dialogue about the isolation as simply discussing the train-guy. And Mycroft missed the isolation, because it was never an issue for him. Sometimes I'm remarkable dense.S

 

As for the robe: color difference is due to the light, Ben's collar is up (as usual) that's why the pattern looks different.

As for the size...

 

[Arcadia]

Before I saw the dialogue about the isolation as simply discussing the train-guy. And Mycroft missed the isolation, because it was never an issue for him. Sometimes I'm remarkable dense.

Tsk! Not! Dense!

 

I think it means that as well, that Mycroft never thought of isolation as an issue, and that's why he didn't realize where Sherlock was going with the conversation. He fell into the trap, yeah! Go Team Sherlock!

[J.P.]

Okay, thick then. If Sherlock can be - so can I. Sometimes.

[Arcadia]

Okay, I'll allow that. :p

[Van Buren Supernova]

MYCROFT: Tell me.

SHERLOCK: Plain as the nose on your ...

Whoa... somehow I forget this..

I want to know, plain as the nose your... Mycroft's 'what'?

 

 

As for the robe: color difference is due to the light, Ben's collar is up (as usual) that's why the pattern looks different.

As for the size...

Good catch.

That is cute

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Maybe Mrs. Hudson got them matching dressing gowns 1 of their 1st Christmases at Baker St.

[Arcadia]

 

MYCROFT: Tell me.

SHERLOCK: Plain as the nose on your ...

Whoa... somehow I forget this..

I want to know, plain as the nose your... Mycroft's 'what'?

 

Well, normally the phrase would be "as plain as the nose on your face", but since it's Sherlock I think you're free to imagine another variation if you wish....

[joanneta1]

SherlockedCamper's hypothesis seems more plausible, because it is not a trick of the light, one is midnight blue with white stripes, the other is more Hessian blue.

And it's just lovely how Sherlock catches Mycroft out, because he starts the whole argument with the statement about making friends:' What were they thinking about?'

[T.o.b.y]

Here's something I still don't understand:

 

When Sherlock comes back, he acts as if he expects John to be happy he's alive and have a good laugh over the whole story with him, and then they'll just go off and solve crimes as always. He seems honestly surprised this isn't the case, and in the restaurant, when he says he's "suddenly realizing" he owes him some kind of an apology, he does give the impression of being sincere, as if he's really only just realized how very much Not Good the fake death was. It's a touching scene that echoes the "I had no idea you would be so affected" line from the original - the message is that Sherlock Holmes simply underestimated how much he means to his friend.

 

But then, we all know Sherlock was actually there in the graveyard. He heard John's speech, and what's more, he admits he did in the very same episode (towards the end, when they talk in the hallway at 221B before going out to meet the journalists). What kind of a genius would still be in any doubt about the truth after witnessing that? And why write that scene into the story if not to remind the audience that yes, Sherlock was indeed aware of how his "death" affected John, but he went through with his plan anyway?

 

To reconcile these seemingly contradictory messages, I have this headcanon that Sherlock, being a complex and contradictory human being like real people, realized then and there in the graveyard that he'd made a big mistake with consequences neither he or Mycroft saw coming, but it was too late to do anything about it. Then he went away and conveniently convinced himself that it was all okay because John said he wanted him to be alive and some day, he'd come back alive and then surely it would all be just fine and a great joke and nothing to worry about, la la la. But he knew deep down somewhere in his funny old brain that wasn't true, and that's why he seems so nervous when he's back in London talking to Mycroft.

 

He just feels like a real person to me... I'm probably assigning way too complex inner workings to him for a fictional person, but hey, he's my favorite fictional person, so... I'll do it anyway. :lol:

[J.P.]

Well, I see here a mix of underestimating the problem he was about to face and/or repressing it. Sherlock is not very good at empathy, or dealing with others' emotions. He probably didn't think enough about it. Actually I wonder what his initial plan was - as he enters the restaurant he looks very confident, but looses his confidence as soon as he sees John. He makes up a new impromptu and even less elaborate plan. Which goes terribly wrong. Which makes him totally confused and retreat into stupid humor. Note the desperate look he gives Mary, as if she could help him out of this awful situation.

 

 

I don't think he thought it was okay to leave John behind. To the contrary: the situation was much more than he could handle.

[Arcadia]

My belief is that Sherlock didn't give it much thought. He had his "work" to do, and he went and did it and didn't waste much time on unrelated matters such as who felt hurt or sad. There wasn't anything he could do about it, so why waste time thinking about it?
 
So, I think it wasn't until the "work" was over and no longer distracting him that he gave much thought to things like "feelings." I think he panicked when he saw John at the restaurant because he suddenly realized this was a moment of -ugh- sentiment -- and he thought maybe he could avert that by making a joke out of it. And I suspect he expected John to behave the way he, Sherlock, thinks he himself would have acted in the same situation ... rationally. Which, if true, just shows what an idiot he really is. :P

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree with all three of you!

 

[Arcadia]

Good to see you take a stand, Carol! :p

[Boswell]

Here's something I still don't understand:

 

When Sherlock comes back, he acts as if he expects John to be happy he's alive and have a good laugh over the whole story with him, and then they'll just go off and solve crimes as always. He seems honestly surprised this isn't the case, and in the restaurant, when he says he's "suddenly realizing" he owes him some kind of an apology, he does give the impression of being sincere, as if he's really only just realized how very much Not Good the fake death was. It's a touching scene that echoes the "I had no idea you would be so affected" line from the original - the message is that Sherlock Holmes simply underestimated how much he means to his friend.

 

But then, we all know Sherlock was actually there in the graveyard. He heard John's speech, and what's more, he admits he did in the very same episode (towards the end, when they talk in the hallway at 221B before going out to meet the journalists). What kind of a genius would still be in any doubt about the truth after witnessing that? And why write that scene into the story if not to remind the audience that yes, Sherlock was indeed aware of how his "death" affected John, but he went through with his plan anyway?

 

To reconcile these seemingly contradictory messages, I have this headcanon that Sherlock, being a complex and contradictory human being like real people, realized then and there in the graveyard that he'd made a big mistake with consequences neither he or Mycroft saw coming, but it was too late to do anything about it. Then he went away and conveniently convinced himself that it was all okay because John said he wanted him to be alive and some day, he'd come back alive and then surely it would all be just fine and a great joke and nothing to worry about, la la la. But he knew deep down somewhere in his funny old brain that wasn't true, and that's why he seems so nervous when he's back in London talking to Mycroft.

 

He just feels like a real person to me... I'm probably assigning way too complex inner workings to him for a fictional person, but hey, he's my favorite fictional person, so... I'll do it anyway. :lol:

Toby, I like how you raised a question I've wondered about too, and then proceeded to answer it yourself in such a lovely subtle way  

Helps me make some sense of it too

 

The look on Sherlock's face at the graveyard after John's little speech seems to me to say "painful, perhaps, but can't be helped; and it's no big deal anyway because i'm going to make it all okay very soon... SO on to the next step in my brilliant plan"

[Inge l-w]

Both of you forget that that scene at the end of TRF was put in expressly to pacify the fandom because at the end of S1 they had received a Bit Not Good messages of threats and bodily violence, so the creators threw the fandom a bone without much thought as to its deeper meaning.

Of course, the result was the shambles of S3, which we're still picking apart.

[Arcadia]

????? Where do they say that? I've never heard that before...what were the fans upset about?

[J.P.]

I wrote once that I can imagine them getting threats because of the cliffhanger.

I cannot even think of being left with TGGs ending for 2 years. *shudder*

[Van Buren Supernova]

My belief is that Sherlock didn't give it much thought. He had his "work" to do, and he went and did it and didn't waste much time on unrelated matters such as who felt hurt or sad. There wasn't anything he could do about it, so why waste time thinking about it?

 

So, I think it wasn't until the "work" was over and no longer distracting him that he gave much thought to things like "feelings." I think he panicked when he saw John at the restaurant because he suddenly realized this was a moment of -ugh- sentiment -- and he thought maybe he could avert that by making a joke out of it. And I suspect he expected John to behave the way he, Sherlock, thinks he himself would have acted in the same situation ... rationally. Which, if true, just shows what an idiot he really is. :P

That sounds like my thinking process...XD

But I don't mind being called an idiot if Sherlock is on that range too.

[Boton]

Here's something I still don't understand:

 

When Sherlock comes back, he acts as if he expects John to be happy he's alive and have a good laugh over the whole story with him, and then they'll just go off and solve crimes as always. He seems honestly surprised this isn't the case, and in the restaurant, when he says he's "suddenly realizing" he owes him some kind of an apology, he does give the impression of being sincere, as if he's really only just realized how very much Not Good the fake death was. It's a touching scene that echoes the "I had no idea you would be so affected" line from the original - the message is that Sherlock Holmes simply underestimated how much he means to his friend.

 

But then, we all know Sherlock was actually there in the graveyard. He heard John's speech, and what's more, he admits he did in the very same episode (towards the end, when they talk in the hallway at 221B before going out to meet the journalists). What kind of a genius would still be in any doubt about the truth after witnessing that? And why write that scene into the story if not to remind the audience that yes, Sherlock was indeed aware of how his "death" affected John, but he went through with his plan anyway?

 

To reconcile these seemingly contradictory messages, I have this headcanon that Sherlock, being a complex and contradictory human being like real people, realized then and there in the graveyard that he'd made a big mistake with consequences neither he or Mycroft saw coming, but it was too late to do anything about it. Then he went away and conveniently convinced himself that it was all okay because John said he wanted him to be alive and some day, he'd come back alive and then surely it would all be just fine and a great joke and nothing to worry about, la la la. But he knew deep down somewhere in his funny old brain that wasn't true, and that's why he seems so nervous when he's back in London talking to Mycroft.

 

He just feels like a real person to me... I'm probably assigning way too complex inner workings to him for a fictional person, but hey, he's my favorite fictional person, so... I'll do it anyway. :lol:

 

I'm with you on Sherlock's rationalization of John's grief.  I also really think that Sherlock convinced himself, either during the process of planning the fall or while he was on his mission, that John would have figured out the truth.  Once John got over the shock of the burial and all, he would have thought back through the clues and figured that Sherlock was up to something.  So I think Sherlock came back from two years away thinking/hoping that John spent at least 18 months of that understanding that something was suspicious and eagerly awaiting Sherlock's return. In this case, I think Sherlock overestimates John, or at least overestimates his ability to make logic govern his emotions.

 

I think Lestrade had it figured out, at least in broad outline form.  I think that's why he responded as he did, rather than by decking Sherlock.  (As an aside, I really want a remix of the return in which Lestrade punches Sherlock, and then John punches Sherlock in three different restaurants, and then Mary punches him for hurting John, and then Molly slaps him, and then Mrs. Hudson has at him with a frying pan.)

 

Back to the serious point, I think ACD Holmes was much more cold.  He may not have realized how affected Watson would be, but I never get the sense from that scene that he takes in the level of devastation Watson has suffered.  

[J.P.]

But Lestrade was arguing with Anderson (who actually was the one who figured it out :P)

 

Yeah, such a mix would be real fun! Especially because I actually expected from Lestrade he would punch Sherlock - or better - headbutt him. He makes the same movement as John and of course it was deliberate from the makers. :D

[Arcadia]

I'm with you on Sherlock's rationalization of John's grief.  I also really think that Sherlock convinced himself, either during the process of planning the fall or while he was on his mission, that John would have figured out the truth.  Once John got over the shock of the burial and all, he would have thought back through the clues and figured that Sherlock was up to something.  So I think Sherlock came back from two years away thinking/hoping that John spent at least 18 months of that understanding that something was suspicious and eagerly awaiting Sherlock's return. In this case, I think Sherlock overestimates John, or at least overestimates his ability to make logic govern his emotions.

I don't exactly disagree, I just wonder if it isn't more likely that Sherlock was so confident in his own superiority that he assumed no one could possibly figure out that he faked it. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.

 

 Either way, I think it's true that, like many a soldier who goes off to war, he didn't comprehend how much home would change while he was away. He expected to slide back into his old life as if he'd never left it, I suspect -- until he saw the look on John's face.

 

To Sherlock's credit, he seemed to make the adjustment pretty quickly. I know he agreed with Mary that he doesn't know anything about human nature, but he's either being too modest (he's really not ) or he's being rueful; he does know human nature, but he miscalculated this time, in a big way. But he also knows what he has to do next; give John some space and keep apologizing profusely. Although I think he sincerely believes John is overreacting and shouldn't need so many apologies.... :D

 

I think Lestrade had it figured out, at least in broad outline form.  I think that's why he responded as he did, rather than by decking Sherlock.  (As an aside, I really want a remix of the return in which Lestrade punches Sherlock, and then John punches Sherlock in three different restaurants, and then Mary punches him for hurting John, and then Molly slaps him, and then Mrs. Hudson has at him with a frying pan.)

I'm not so sure about the rest, but I really did want to see Mrs. H clock him with the frying pan!  I think he was secretly pleased when Lestrade hugged him, tho, I wouldn't want to take that away from him.

 

Back to the serious point, I think ACD Holmes was much more cold.  He may not have realized how affected Watson would be, but I never get the sense from that scene that he takes in the level of devastation Watson has suffered.

That's a hard one to judge, because even if he had realized the depth of Watson's grief, would he have acknowledged it? I keep coming around to the idea that, while able to remain distant, ACD's Holmes and our Sherlock are still pretty astute observers of human nature. I think they can make a pretty good guess at what people are feeling by the physical signs, even if they don't understand WHY other people succumb to those feelings. I think that's what prompted the "suddenly realizing" line Toby refers to; Sherlock may not have been expecting John's reaction, but he sure as heck recognized it for what it was and knew he was in trouble. But he doesn't see the point of such emotions, or feel comfortable with them, so he tries to divert them with humor, or sort of awkwardly dances around them.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

I think Lestrade had it figured out, at least in broad outline form.  I think that's why he responded as he did, rather than by decking Sherlock.  (As an aside, I really want a remix of the return in which Lestrade punches Sherlock, and then John punches Sherlock in three different restaurants, and then Mary punches him for hurting John, and then Molly slaps him, and then Mrs. Hudson has at him with a frying pan.)

 

 

But Lestrade was arguing with Anderson (who actually was the one who figured it out :P)

 

Yeah, such a mix would be real fun! Especially because I actually expected from Lestrade he would punch Sherlock - or better - headbutt him. He makes the same movement as John and of course it was deliberate from the makers. :D

 

 

I like the remix idea.  That would be brilliant.  Anyone in the fandom talented enough to make it as I'm not.  

 

As for Lestrade knowing or not.  In MHR, Anderson lays out the clues that Sherlock is back.  Lestrade denies it but does begin to question if maybe Anderson is right but is still in denial. In TEH: As to Anderson's theory on how Sherlock survived, he doesn't buy it.  Gatiss had Lestrade back at the guy is completely dead, no way he could have survived.  He might agree (after he's found out that Anderson is right on Sherlock being alive) that Molly may have had something to do with it even if he was never told by Sherlock who helped fake the suicide.

[Boton]

But Lestrade was arguing with Anderson (who actually was the one who figured it out :P)

 

 

 

But Lestrade has years of exerperience in believing in Sherlock even when Sherlock sounds or acts completely nuts.  Lestrade has known Sherlock for five years longer than John, and maybe that's the amount of time it takes to be able to listen to Sherlock say something like "Oh, you're looking for someone with a Polish grandfather and a collection of Hummel figurines he inherited from his great aunt" and actually go with it and see it through to the end.  Lestrade has done that over and over, and I think he found one or two clues that were inconsistent with a suicide and just thought that Sherlock would pop up eventually.  

 

In the meantime, he wasn't going to waste a good opportunity to wind Anderson up for a while.  After all, Anderson's suspicion may have initially been directed at Sherlock, but it was Lestrade that suffered the close-range blowback of having hired a potentially-unstable consultant over and over on some of the Met's most sensitive cases.  I figure once Lestrade made it through whatever punishment or slap on the wrist he was going to get, he didn't hesitate to take advantage of Anderson's fundamental guilt and keep reminding him that he was responsible for Sherlock's suicide.  And, that theory has the nice side benefit that, if Lestrade didn't really believe Sherlock was dead, it isn't quite as cruel; he would have been fairly sure that Sherlock would pop up sooner or later and put Anderson out of his misery.

 

Just my head canon, though.  YMMV.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I think Sherlock came back from two years away thinking/hoping that John spent at least 18 months of that understanding that something was suspicious and eagerly awaiting Sherlock's return. In this case, I think Sherlock overestimates John, or at least overestimates his ability to make logic govern his emotions.

 

I see John as noticing that things don't quite add up, plus having an intuition that Sherlock isn't really dead (thus his "Don't be dead" plea at the cemetery) -- but not following up on that feeling because he assumes it's just wishful thinking.  In other words, he does make logic govern his emotions -- though not in the way you meant.

[Boton]

 

... I think Sherlock came back from two years away thinking/hoping that John spent at least 18 months of that understanding that something was suspicious and eagerly awaiting Sherlock's return. In this case, I think Sherlock overestimates John, or at least overestimates his ability to make logic govern his emotions.

 

I see John as noticing that things don't quite add up, plus having an intuition that Sherlock isn't really dead (thus his "Don't be dead" plea at the cemetery) -- but not following up on that feeling because he assumes it's just wishful thinking.  In other words, he does make logic govern his emotions -- though not in the way you meant.

 

 

I agree.  And, if I'm going to fan-wank John's psychology, I would say that his military experience trained him that someone you are good friends with can literally be laughing with you one second and lying in a pool of their own blood the next.  He's seen that happen enough that, logically, he has to school himself to think that even Sherlock Holmes can't worm his way out of a fall from a building.

 

More head-canon-y justification, but I think several of us have pointed out the disparity in facial expressions in TGG when the older lady was killed.  Sherlock is the one who looks shocked that such a thing could happen; Lestrade and John both look like they assimilated that data fairly quickly and have moved on to either comforting Sherlock or planning next steps.  It speaks to a certain innocence on Sherlock's part that gradually disappears as the show goes on: he starts out perhaps not being intimately familiar with the act of someone dying, even though he's around corpses and murders all the time.  So, he would be more likely to assume that John would find his (Sherlock's) death preposterous (impossible, not just improbable), whereas John has seen such a thing enough to consider it very much in the realm of possibility.  I think that innocence in Sherlock was gone by the time he returned from Serbia.