Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Arcadia]

Now to less fun part..

A lovely synopsis! I want to respond (I have a lot of thoughts about Janine) but unfortunately have to go do some work right now, but you make some excellent observations. I hope I get some more time later!

[J.P.]

I'm definitely with you in the minority loving the goodbye scene. A heartbreaker.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

Hm, I wonder if Sherlock would throw someone out a window if they did something not nice to his coat .... :D

 

 

Here's my though on Sherlock & the reaction to his coat (or anyone he deeply cares about)..."I shall turn absolutely monstrous."-Mum Holmes whether or not the person would get tossed out the window again is up for alternate suggestions/debate but the person may likely regret the day they were born.

[sfmpco]

No, he has coats, lots of coats as he said to Anderson in TEH.  Lots of the SAME coat, he was implying.

[Boton]

Now to less fun part..

 

To me, I can almost convinced myself the answer to every 'problem' this episode except for Janine. Her arc has gaping plot hole that I couldn't get through.

She strikes me as a strong, smart, confident woman, why would she work with CAM and bears with it? Especially it was mentioned that he didn't treat her well. He flicked her eye ffs.

 

Why would she allow Sherlock to come in since Magnussen is still there? (He is supposed to go to dinner but not)

Why was she easily manipulated by Mary and Sherlock? (Sherlock is charming yes, but it doesn't take a genius to question his behavior after what he displayed in the wedding, she might fall (who doesn't) for Sherlocks awkward persona, but that is not the persona that he used for her).

And Mary? How long has she known Mary? I guess not for long, otherwise Mary must be a lousy slow assasin to wait until that long after the wedding before she decide to settle Magnussen. If she feels safe until the telegram, why she manipulated Janine before that. I would think it takes a lot of getting to know effort to make someone your maid oh honor. But that is me.

 

 

 

Well, I'm positive you'll get some anti-Janine sentiments shortly (which is, as we say, fine), so let me chime in from the pro-Janine front.

 

I really think that Janine works with CAM for the same reason many people close to him do:  he has something on her, and he would use her pressure point to keep her in line.  It doesn't have to be something big or major like Mary's CIA background; it just has to be something she's sensitive to and that she doesn't want to get out.  After all, Mrs. Hudson's pressure point is marijuana, which is illegal (in the UK, I think?) but hardly something uncommon or shocking to have used, and one of Sherlock's potential pressure points is his childhood pet.

 

My own interpretation of the episode, from the beginning, is that she was manipulated by Sherlock and let him into the office because, against her better judgment perhaps, she was starting to fall for him or at least find him very attractive and compelling.  Now, I'm one of the few who thinks that at least a bit of this was reciprocated; I know that ACD canon doesn't really back me up in this, and there's little in the episode to suggest it, but I think the story holds together better if Sherlock was occasionally letting glimpses of his true self out, and Janine saw that and was reacting to it.  Kind of like the "I've always loved to dance" scene in TOS; there's something about Janine that encourages honesty from Sherlock, even when he's trying to make himself believe everything is for a case.

 

Letting him into the office at that particular time, with CAM upstairs, is a weakness in the story, but one we have to tolerate to keep the major plot points working, IMHO.  I tend to just think that Janine was really going to send Sherlock away until he flashed the ring, and then, like many of us girls, she was a bit overcome and maybe thought that even CAM wouldn't mind if he saw that it was a proposal.

 

As for Janine being the chief bridesmaid, I agree that that's a weakness in this story, and that it normally takes some time for women to become good enough friends to choose each other as honor attendants for a wedding.  But we know that Mary has a magnetic personality; she was instant friends with Sherlock, so maybe that was true with Janine.  And she had to know that CAM was a threat to her, even if he was a "sleeping" one, because she recognized his telegram by initials ("CAM").  She didn't have to ask "Magnussen who?"  She knew who the threat was, so, like a good operative, she would be continually looking for HIS vulnerabilities in case she needed to exploit them.  Given that Janine strikes me as someone who is reasonably smart but not overly suspicious, she was a good mark for both Sherlock and Mary.  And maybe Mary is such a good "instant friend" that it didn't seem weird for Janine to be asked to be chief bridesmaid, which served to keep Janine close.

[STCooper1]

Something that bugged me yesterday, but I couldn't put into words until I'd slept over it - why did Magnussen present the fact that his "vault" was all in his head as such a clever thing? Imho, admitting that to Sherlock of all people was the stupidest thing he could ever have done. It's certainly not like Sherlock's big brother hadn't let people vanish before. Storing all the blackmailing knowledge in his head doesn't make him smart in my eyes, it makes him incredibly vulnerable. Not even a dead man's switch? Stupid move. Well he did find out just how stupid a couple minutes later, but still, why did anyone ever think that was a good idea?

Magnussen had the hard copies of his black knowledge elsewhere and confirmed he could send for something anytime he wanted to right after he got done with his mind palace display. Watson says "So there are no documents then. You don't actually have anything here" and Magnussen replies "Well, sometimes I send out for something if I really need it, but mostly I just remember it all." So there is actually no proof that he didn't have a failsafe in place, especially since he confirmed in that sentence that there were others besides him who knew where to find the information. And it wasn't stupid to reveal his mind palace to Sherlock since he was under Mycroft's protection and nothing would come from that end, as Mycroft considered him a government asset and necessary evil, and Magnussen thought his guards had done the job he hired them for of searching Watson and Holmes for weapons before bringing them inside his house. He didn't know a gun made it inside, and therefore that he could be in any danger. Thats why he dismissed the guards after they brought Sherlock and John in to him. His mind palace was clever, as he outfoxed Holmes with it.

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

A lot of people have noted that Sherlock doesn't seem to respond to personal attacks nearly as strongly as he does to attacks on those he cares about. So maybe that's all it is? He knows Magnussen's despicable, so why get all worked up if the jerk insults him? Something like that. I also think it had something to do with remaining dignified when Magnussen was being gross. And finally, if Sherlock HAD tried to throw CAM out the window, CAM's bodyguards would have shot him! :o

 

 

That is a good point.

I did notice (mostly from other episodes, because this episode he is the one being attacked by almost everyone )  that he reacts much more when the attacks are directed to others than himself, let alone attack on his fireplace.

 

But I'm sure if he wants Magnussen out of window, he would find a way  , (although not without consequences)

The CIA guys came with arms and hostage and he outsmarted them, twice, yes, it's arguable that that guy is a moron too.

 

A lovely synopsis! I want to respond (I have a lot of thoughts about Janine) but unfortunately have to go do some work right now, but you make some excellent observations. I hope I get some more time later!

 

 

It would be great, looking forward to your takes, insult away! 

I know right, work gets in the way of Sherlock activities, it shouldn't be like this..

 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

Hm, I wonder if Sherlock would throw someone out a window if they did something not nice to his coat .... :D

 

 

 

 

 

Here's my though on Sherlock & the reaction to his coat (or anyone he deeply cares about)..."I shall turn absolutely monstrous."-Mum Holmes whether or not the person would get tossed out the window again is up for alternate suggestions/debate but the person may likely regret the day they were born.

 

 

 

No, he has coats, lots of coats as he said to Anderson in TEH.  Lots of the SAME coat, he was implying.

 

 

I would enjoy to see mini episode of monstrous Sherlock if Magnussen collects and stacks all his coats, then pees on the pile.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

No, he has coats, lots of coats as he said to Anderson in TEH. Lots of the SAME coat, he was implying.

Yes, but would he get upset if a coat was ruined by the hand of a baddie vs. Sherlock deciding to do something that could result in it getting ruined? I think he could get quite upset if someone with evil intentions purposely ruined his coat.

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

Well, I'm positive you'll get some anti-Janine sentiments shortly (which is, as we say, fine), so let me chime in from the pro-Janine front.

 

I really think that Janine works with CAM for the same reason many people close to him do:  he has something on her, and he would use her pressure point to keep her in line.  It doesn't have to be something big or major like Mary's CIA background; it just has to be something she's sensitive to and that she doesn't want to get out.  After all, Mrs. Hudson's pressure point is marijuana, which is illegal (in the UK, I think?) but hardly something uncommon or shocking to have used, and one of Sherlock's potential pressure points is his childhood pet.

 

 

If her secrets are not something big or major, she can move away or find a new place without too much repercussion.

I still find it hard to believe someone like Janine would stay with someone like Magnussen that long.

It would be more believable if Janine is portrayed as someone more pushover less confident or intelligent. 

Unless, unless, she actually keep a bigger secret or having different agenda for staying (not the direction I want to see),

but imho, it still take a lot of convincing to justify her ability to stand him.

 

My own interpretation of the episode, from the beginning, is that she was manipulated by Sherlock and let him into the office because, against her better judgment perhaps, she was starting to fall for him or at least find him very attractive and compelling.  Now, I'm one of the few who thinks that at least a bit of this was reciprocated; I know that ACD canon doesn't really back me up in this, and there's little in the episode to suggest it, but I think the story holds together better if Sherlock was occasionally letting glimpses of his true self out, and Janine saw that and was reacting to it.  Kind of like the "I've always loved to dance" scene in TOS; there's something about Janine that encourages honesty from Sherlock, even when he's trying to make himself believe everything is for a case.

 

Letting him into the office at that particular time, with CAM upstairs, is a weakness in the story, but one we have to tolerate to keep the major plot points working, IMHO.  I tend to just think that Janine was really going to send Sherlock away until he flashed the ring, and then, like many of us girls, she was a bit overcome and maybe thought that even CAM wouldn't mind if he saw that it was a proposal.

 

 

 

I agree that she was starting to fall for Sherlock. In fact, I think she was fascinated by him since the beginning, and already fell for him. Yet she should have known something fishy because Sherlock that she knows in the wedding turns into mushy boyfriend and proposed to her in a month, yet managed to c*ckblock himself.

However, I think this can be explained with "human error", more expanded that what Sherlock meant.

People tend to believe what they want to believe, despite the obvious signs telling them otherwise, it's too common when dealing with love and sentiment. Sigh, people.

 

 

As for Janine being the chief bridesmaid, I agree that that's a weakness in this story, and that it normally takes some time for women to become good enough friends to choose each other as honor attendants for a wedding.  But we know that Mary has a magnetic personality; she was instant friends with Sherlock, so maybe that was true with Janine.  And she had to know that CAM was a threat to her, even if he was a "sleeping" one, because she recognized his telegram by initials ("CAM").  She didn't have to ask "Magnussen who?"  She knew who the threat was, so, like a good operative, she would be continually looking for HIS vulnerabilities in case she needed to exploit them.  Given that Janine strikes me as someone who is reasonably smart but not overly suspicious, she was a good mark for both Sherlock and Mary.  And maybe Mary is such a good "instant friend" that it didn't seem weird for Janine to be asked to be chief bridesmaid, which served to keep Janine close.

 

 

I can buy that. It would be more believable if Janine was a regular bridesmaid, but they need to fit her in there to justify her interactions with Sherlock for story purpose.

 

What is more questionable is, how Magnussen overlooked that.

[sittything]

 

 

Yet she should have known something fishy because Sherlock that she knows in the wedding turns into mushy boyfriend and proposed to her in a month, yet managed to c*ckblock himself.

 

This... is a very funny and apt way of putting it.  lol.  Bravo.  I'm dying at the last bit.

 

I've basically decided that Janine either has to be an idiot or is part of the Moriarty clan of geniuses, because otherwise I have no way of explaining/understanding her actions/choices.

[sfmpco]

It's very possible Janine is very sweet but not all that bright.  It would work to Magnussen's advantage not to have someone too bright as an assistant.

[Boton]

 

 

Well, I'm positive you'll get some anti-Janine sentiments shortly (which is, as we say, fine), so let me chime in from the pro-Janine front.

 

I really think that Janine works with CAM for the same reason many people close to him do:  he has something on her, and he would use her pressure point to keep her in line.  It doesn't have to be something big or major like Mary's CIA background; it just has to be something she's sensitive to and that she doesn't want to get out.  After all, Mrs. Hudson's pressure point is marijuana, which is illegal (in the UK, I think?) but hardly something uncommon or shocking to have used, and one of Sherlock's potential pressure points is his childhood pet.

 

 

If her secrets are not something big or major, she can move away or find a new place without too much repercussion.

I still find it hard to believe someone like Janine would stay with someone like Magnussen that long.

It would be more believable if Janine is portrayed as someone more pushover less confident or intelligent. 

Unless, unless, she actually keep a bigger secret or having different agenda for staying (not the direction I want to see),

but imho, it still take a lot of convincing to justify her ability to stand him.

 

 

 

 

I disagree, but I can't say that I have any proof.  Not every one of Magnussen's threats have to involve a "public outing" through the media or whatever.  If you go back to ACD canon, Milverton exerted a lot of influence and made a lot of blackmail money simply by letting families in on dirty little secrets that ruined the reputation of fiancees and the like.  

 

Magnussen could have known something about Janine that she didn't want her family to know.  If she moved on, he would let the family in on things; that might be enough to keep her in place.  Plus, I suspect she might enjoy the power that comes from being that close to the heart of a media empire like Magnussen's, especially if she never expected to be much more than a lowly PA.  Magnussen may have presented her with the right combination of carrot and stick to keep her doing what he wants.

[J.P.]

 

Letting him into the office at that particular time, with CAM upstairs, is a weakness in the story, but one we have to tolerate to keep the major plot points working, IMHO. 

Oh, I think I haven't noticed that. 

But I will stick with my theory (written over in Janine thread) that this girl was CAM's spy or was playing her own game. Maybe Sherlock was supposed to come to CAM's office, so he could be accused of... I dunno... breaking in or something similar.

 

As for Sherlock buying the ring - I imagine this was the quickest engaging ring shopping in history. He probably grabbed the first one he saw, maybe even not looking for the right size. Because why should he care about the ring when he didn't care about the girl.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

 

Letting him into the office at that particular time, with CAM upstairs, is a weakness in the story, but one we have to tolerate to keep the major plot points working, IMHO. 

Oh, I think I haven't noticed that. 

But I will stick with my theory (written over in Janine thread) that this girl was CAM's spy or was playing her own game. Maybe Sherlock was supposed to come to CAM's office, so he could be accused of... I dunno... breaking in or something similar.

 

As for Sherlock buying the ring - I imagine this was the quickest engaging ring shopping in history. He probably grabbed the first one he saw, maybe even not looking for the right size. Because why should he care about the ring when he didn't care about the girl.

 

 

I think he cared just enough for the ring to make sure it was large enough for her to be more likely to let him up. But agreed as short a shopping trip as possible otherwise.

[STCooper1]

Hello Everybody! I'm new to this forum and after being quite shocked at all the hate John gets here after yesterday's episode, I'd really like to join the discussion. 

 

First of all I doubt that things would have turned out differently if John hadn't chosen to stay with Mary (I don't think he has fully forgiven her yet, he said that he was still very pissed at her. He has just chosen not to give up on her completely). Even if John had left Mary for good after what she did to Sherlock, Magnussen would still have had leverage over Sherlock and John. Because if Magnussen had made public who Mary was, there's no doubt she would either have been killed (more likely) or sent to prison for lifetime. And no matter how angry John was at her, he would never have forgiven himself for basically causing the mother of his unborn child and the women who had most likely been his only support during the "dark years" of Sherlocks's absence being shot or locked away for life. We know how loyal John is to the people who have been there for him during this darkest days, so I really don't see him just get over the guilt of basically not preventing her from dying/going to jail if he could have. So no matter of the choice John made, he would still have had to suffer (a lot) from Magnussen's leverage and Sherlock would still have wanted to prevent his suffering. 

 

Secondly, at least for me John hasn't lost his status as the moral compass. I just like to think that he desparatly wants to believe that his wife, the woman he has loved for the last two years and who has basically been there for him when he had reached a low point in his ilfe and who is the mother of his unborn child, hasn't killed anyone who didn't deserve to be killed. John himself has killed before (quite coldly and without any bad conscience afterwards), but only when he thought the killing was justified. I think by not reading Mary's file, John is trying to pretend and convince himself that Mary did the same and didn't do anything more immoral than himself. If he had actually read the file, found out that she had been killing innocent people and still would have loved and forgiven her, that would be a totally different matter. And by the way: She didn't kill Janine, she was hardly injured. She killed the security guard, but that could have been in self defence. And she tried to kill Magnussen, but isn't that what Sherlock did too, in the end? What Mary tried to do there was some kind of self defence against a criminal blackmailer. In the end, there remains "only" the shooting of Sherlock that can't be justified by any means, but Sherlock himself is doing his best to justify this for John.

 

Thirdly, I don't really see where John has betrayed Sherlock. I think back in the flat when he had just found out about who Mary really was, he was quite ready to chose Sherlock over Mary for good. Note that it actually was Sherlock who prevented him from doing that and kept defending her, speaking in her defense and trying to convince John that she wasn't such a bad person as he - John - thought she was. And although we know how high John values Sherlocks opinion it still took him months to even talk to Mary again (as we learn in the scene in Sherlock's parent's house, John has been giving Mary the silent treating for months). So the forgivness didn't come easy to John and I dare think that it took Sherlock quite a lot of manipulation to even bring John to come to the point where he decided he wanted to give Mary a second chance (because I don't think he has fully forgiven her in that scene, he just let her know that he was giving her a second chance). Sherlock wanted John to not give up on Mary and we know a) how convincing and manipulative he can be and that John is loyal to a fault to Sherlock and finds it quite hard to say no to any of Sherlock's requests. Sherlock even brought Mary and John to his parents to manipulate John to speed up the "reunion". So given that this "reunion" was actually what Sherlock wanted, I don't really see how John has betrayed him. I have no doubt that if Sherlock hadn't been pushing John to forgive Mary, John probably wouldn't have made the effort to try and do so.

 

And lastly, I don't really see what John could have done to save Sherlock after he had shot Magnussen. There where plenty of witnesses who had seen that Sherlock had taken that shot, so what could John have done? And should he have thanked Sherlock for doing what he had done? I don't actually think that John wants to be thankful for having Mary but in exchange losing Sherlock again. Sherlock thought that John would be better off with Mary than with him (and by that I mean as best friends and NOT as lovers), but I'm not sure if John actually agrees with that. So I don't think that thanking Sherlock for taking John's best friend away from him again would have made things any better. And as for John standing at the airport hand in hand with Mary: Sherlock had just basically given his live to protect John and Mary and their unborn child, in short, the Watson family. I don't think it would have made him feel better to see John turing his back on Mary and by that negating everything Sherlock had risked to save them. 

 

Wow, this post has become way longer than I expected. I just feel really sorry for both Sherlock AND John and I don't think John is such a bad person or has made any such heartless choices to deserve all those negative words he has been getting here. He actually IS the victim in this whole story and has had his whole live shattered to pieces once again (and so has Sherlock and I feel as bad for him as I do for John). And yes, I'm fully aware that we're all just talking about a TV-Series here and not about real people   But it's fun doing that, isn't it?  ;)

 

Actually, Mary's intent to murder Magnussen was not justified in any way. He never tried to blackmail her or anything. All he did was let her know he knew her secrets, and for his knowledge of them she planned to murder him. That in completely unjustified. 

[J.P.]

I don't know, there is his wedding telegramm read by Sherlock mentioning her parents, which sounds quite menacing if you think about it. Watching the scene for the first time you can think she's moved, but she is upset if not terryfied by it.

 

There is a good essay out there about why she wasn't in his office to kill him, which made much sense. I can to look it up if you want.

[BlackButterfly]

Magnussen does say Mary was there to kill him in the cut scene .

Mary agrees when SH says it in the 221b confrontation .

That she intended murder to keep a secret from her husband is undeniable isn't it?

[Inge l-w]

Dear BlackButterfly,

In order to keep said secret from said husband she was prepared to kill both Magnussen and Sherlock, in their confrontation at Leinster Gardens, with her " How badly do you want to find out? " The lady is a trained killer who likes her job a bit too much, so, hopefully she will disappear in the course of the putative S4 for destination unknown.

[Shadow Dweller]

Nooooo... we need action-woman in SHERLOCK xp

[J.P.]

Magnussen does say Mary was there to kill him in the cut scene .

Mary agrees when SH says it in the 221b confrontation .

That she intended murder to keep a secret from her husband is undeniable isn't it?

 

But if she - like everybody else - thought there were some kind of physical evidence of what CAM was using to blackmail people, killing him would only open the Pandora Box, as there would be investigation and someone would find them. Killing him would make sense only if she knew the truth. Which - as I write it now - seems to be a possibility. Mary knew CAM longer and better than any other people in the episode and there seems to be some kind of a backstory.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

Magnussen does say Mary was there to kill him in the cut scene .

Mary agrees when SH says it in the 221b confrontation .

That she intended murder to keep a secret from her husband is undeniable isn't it?

But if she - like everybody else - thought there were some kind of physical evidence of what CAM was using to blackmail people, killing him would only open the Pandora Box, as there would be investigation and someone would find them. Killing him would make sense only if she knew the truth. Which - as I write it now - seems to be a possibility. Mary knew CAM longer and better than any other people in the episode and there seems to be some kind of a backstory.

Would be interesting if bits of that backstory popped up in S4 as part of Mary's story arc.

[STCooper1]

 

Can we please please talk about the fact that Mycroft was totally willing to send his brother to certain death because he killed a man everyone wanted dead anyway, but turns the plane around second Moriarty is back in the picture???  For me, the whole Mary "betrayal" thing is nothing compared to what Mycroft did!

 

It's not like Mary went to Baker street and hunted Sherlock down--she was trying to kill Magnussen to free herself from her past, and it wasn't her fault that Sherlock and John interrupted her.  Plus, Sherlock and Mary both understand that John loves them because of, not in spite of, their cunning/duplicity.

 

 Mycroft, on the other hand, what on earth was his excuse?  

 

You know who I was really angry with? Lady Smallwood!!! She's the one who approached Sherlock and put him on the case, and when he did what she didn't have the balls to do, she exiles him? Why not pull strings to have him pardoned for doing an honorable service to their country? Between her and Mycroft, whom they keep saying basically runs the country, why could they not make that happen?

 

 

Sherlock murdered a legally innocent man who hadn't killed anyone in his life or done anything to deserve to die. As a blackmailer(legally speaking, you can't even call him this as he doesn't make threats, just statements), Magnussen was nothing but a bully and deserved imprisonment at worst, but not to be murdered. Sherlock's murder of him was completely unnecessary and he deserved to be sent to prison for life or exiled to death for it. Mycroft not doing anything to help him other than ensure the police don't kill Sherlock for his wicked crimes was honorable and proper. He and Lady Smallwood's actions were due justice and law.

 

 

Something that bugged me yesterday, but I couldn't put into words until I'd slept over it - why did Magnussen present the fact that his "vault" was all in his head as such a clever thing? Imho, admitting that to Sherlock of all people was the stupidest thing he could ever have done. It's certainly not like Sherlock's big brother hadn't let people vanish before. Storing all the blackmailing knowledge in his head doesn't make him smart in my eyes, it makes him incredibly vulnerable. Not even a dead man's switch? Stupid move. Well he did find out just how stupid a couple minutes later, but still, why did anyone ever think that was a good idea?

 

 

Yes, that was the dumbest move of all time.  So heavy handed, I had to laugh in retrospect. It was like all the movies where some idiot finds out some damning information about someone else, and they approach them with it, and they're like "I hope you understand I have to report this..." and the other person is like,"Yes, of course, but first, tell me, did you tell anyone else that you found this information?" "No, I came straight to you..." AND NOW YOU DIE HORRIBLY. He was an idiot in the end. 

 

 

Interesting side note: I was reading the Q&A with Mofftiss earlier today, and someone asked if they had spent a long time deliberating on having Sherlock kill Magnussen. They said not really because they had always assumed that, in the original ACD story of Milverton, Holmes had actually been  the one to kill him, and Watson had lied in his memoirs to protect him. I don't buy that, but it's an interesting theory nonetheless.

 

Some people were talking about Mary dying in season 4... I feel like she pretty much has to, for many reason, not least of which because

the actress has said that she took the role because she knew she would get to "die in John Watson's arms" at some point, and because Mofftiss have commented that they added Mary to the show with the idea in mind that they would eventually tackle writing John-Watson-the-Widower. So her death is imminent, it's just a question of how long they are going to drag it out.

 

 

Now, this is Moffat at the helm, and I know he can certainly milk it and keep a character (especially one of his amazing, larger than life, super hero women who are capable of shooting the freaking heads on a quarter flipping through the air in the dark ) around well past her welcome. So I don't want to hold my breath and asphyxiate.  BUT--- I don't really see them leaving John and Sherlock to raise a kid on their own, so either she has to die before the baby is born (which is soon, and that's assuming season 4 picks up immediately where season 3 ended), or she and the baby have to die together (although, judging by how things are going, they'll appear to be in a car that explodes while an ice cream truck drives past suspiciously slowly and blocks the view of the car moments before it explodes).  Now, I really hope they won't go so far as to give John a flesh and blood child to hold in his arms just to turn around and kill it, because that would be taking it too far in my opinion. So I am holding out hope that either Mary dies in childbirth in season 4, or she sacrifices herself before the baby is born.  Or she gets caught in the crossfire in whatever dangerous situation John and Sherlock get caught up in in  season 4.  Or they could just go the canon route, and have season 4 pick up with her having died in the interim. But I doubt it. 

 

I was actually thinking today how poetic (and yet sad for John) it would be if one of the loved ones of one of her victims came out of nowhere and killed her. Like I said, it's a dumb move for a woman in hiding to marry a pseudo celebrity who is closely connected to a man with an "international reputation". Anyone could see her picture and come looking for her. Magnussen said there were lots of people who hated her, who were close to the people she killed. Wouldn't it be a knife's edge for John if she were killed by, say, the older sister of a young man Mary assassinated? Because on the one hand, you want to hate and kill this person who killed your wife and unborn child, but on the other, how do you condemn someone for avenging the death of their own family? What an emotional mine field that would be! 

 

Edited April 30, 2015 by Arcadia
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[Boton]

 

 

 

 

 

Some people were talking about Mary dying in season 4... I feel like she pretty much has to, for many reason, not least of which because

the actress has said that she took the role because she knew she would get to "die in John Watson's arms" at some point, and because Mofftiss have commented that they added Mary to the show with the idea in mind that they would eventually tackle writing John-Watson-the-Widower. So her death is imminent, it's just a question of how long they are going to drag it out. 

 

Now, this is Moffat at the helm, and I know he can certainly milk it and keep a character (especially one of his amazing, larger than life, super hero women who are capable of shooting the freaking heads on a quarter flipping through the air in the dark ) around well past her welcome. So I don't want to hold my breath and asphyxiate.  BUT--- I don't really see them leaving John and Sherlock to raise a kid on their own, so either she has to die before the baby is born (which is soon, and that's assuming season 4 picks up immediately where season 3 ended), or she and the baby have to die together (although, judging by how things are going, they'll appear to be in a car that explodes while an ice cream truck drives past suspiciously slowly and blocks the view of the car moments before it explodes).  Now, I really hope they won't go so far as to give John a flesh and blood child to hold in his arms just to turn around and kill it, because that would be taking it too far in my opinion. So I am holding out hope that either Mary dies in childbirth in season 4, or she sacrifices herself before the baby is born.  Or she gets caught in the crossfire in whatever dangerous situation John and Sherlock get caught up in in  season 4.  Or they could just go the canon route, and have season 4 pick up with her having died in the interim. But I doubt it. 

 

I was actually thinking today how poetic (and yet sad for John) it would be if one of the loved ones of one of her victims came out of nowhere and killed her. Like I said, it's a dumb move for a woman in hiding to marry a pseudo celebrity who is closely connected to a man with an "international reputation". Anyone could see her picture and come looking for her. Magnussen said there were lots of people who hated her, who were close to the people she killed. Wouldn't it be a knife's edge for John if she were killed by, say, the older sister of a young man Mary assassinated? Because on the one hand, you want to hate and kill this person who killed your wife and unborn child, but on the other, how do you condemn someone for avenging the death of their own family? What an emotional mine field that would be! 

 

 

I know that there were some pictures from the filming of the Special which showed Mary in the red coat she wore for the tarmac scene, indicating that there is at least a bit that picks up right after HLV.  I'm really kind of hoping that Mary's death is the catalyst that kicks off whatever dream/fantasy takes place in 1895 for the guys.  Maybe the whole fantasy is part of John's grieving process.  Heaven knows, Moffatt has enough experience with Dr. Who with making Christmas specials that have an element in them that is not particularly Christmassy, so this would fit right in.

 

(You have no idea how guilty I feel for AA when I wish Mary dead.  I keep hoping Sherlock catapults her to bigger and better parts, and they give her a death kind of like they did Anthony Edwards when he left ER:  a big, dramatic, definitely-dead death that people will remember.)

[T.o.b.y]

Personally, I do not expect Mary to die any time soon. My impression is that the whole team is very fond of the character and they have only just introduced her. I'm sure they want to play with her for a while before they let her go, if they ever do that at all.