What would you like to see in series 4?

[Arcadia]

Ayuh.

[Zain]

Well, the drug abuse is one of those open ends they did not bring to a closure in s3. So I think the matter does deserve some reference. Whether they make it part of the plot, or just show that Sherlock once again is under closer observation from his friends when it comes to drug intake/smoking/danger nights.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Agreed!  I just don't care to see him have a relapse every-other episode.  But I don't suppose there's really much indication that Moftiss are headed in that direction -- it's just that "Last Vow" makes me a little nervous!  (For a lot of reasons!)

 

 

[Zain]

Yeah, either they deal with it head on in one of the episodes, and then cross it from their to-do list, or they better put it to rest (apart from a closing remark). I do not care for it as a leitmotif either.

[by the sea]

Again, I think I'm missing something here.  What exactly indicates that Sherlock is abusing drugs ?  OK, in the beginning of HLV, he's undercover in an "opium den" and presumably has imbibed to fit in.  Since he's supposed to have a history of drug abuse,  one assumes that the occasional "taste" could potentially lead to relapse.  However, he never seems to me, at least, to be under the influence of anything ... maybe I just don't know what I'm looking for ?  He reels off information at breakneck speed on a regular basis ... is that an indicator ?  He's endlessly bored if he's not working on a case ... does that have to do with dependency ?  (I'm  reading the Sherlock Holmes stories by ACD and started A Sign of Four last night as a matter of fact and the drug use is featured prominently in the early stages of the story ... telling the reader that Sherlock uses the cocaine to stimulate his brain when he's bored.)  Can somebody please point out the signs of his drug abuse to me ?

 

Debbie

[sfmpco]

In HLV he says he solves cases as an alternative to getting high, although at the beginning he uses drugs and is high to attract CAM's attention via the news hitting the press.

 

In ASIB Mycroft and John are clearly worried that Sherlock's taking of a cigarette after thinking he identified the body of Irene Adler put him in a danger zone for a potential drug relapse. Mycroft had concern here but showed annoyance in HLV about him being "back on the sauce again."

 

In HOB he was clearly upset with knowing he couldn't trust his senses because he knew that he had been drugged.

 

Of course in HLV there is intentional drug use by him getting high and there is the getting high on morphine because of pain. He was high when making the deal with CAM. He was also still high when CAM visited 221B.

 

I think there will be more drug use as he gets progressively more human and probably can't cope with what he has worked so hard to keep at bay and under control.

[T.o.b.y]

They have already said that Moriarty is dead and that they're not having 2 fake deaths.  I believe it is someone using Moriarty's image to bait the governement into bringing Sherlock back into the picture... which would mean whoever is doing the baiting knows what happened with CAM and has access to top government information.

 

You can survive a fall from a building.  You can't survive blowing your brains out.

 

Hmmmm... well, you can survive a shot in the head, though, depending on what part of the brain was (not) damaged and how quickly you get medical attention and so on. But I hope you are right, I really do. Being reconciled to something isn't the same as liking it.

 

 

[sfmpco]

 

They have already said that Moriarty is dead and that they're not having 2 fake deaths.  I believe it is someone using Moriarty's image to bait the governement into bringing Sherlock back into the picture... which would mean whoever is doing the baiting knows what happened with CAM and has access to top government information.

 

You can survive a fall from a building.  You can't survive blowing your brains out.

 

Hmmmm... well, you can survive a shot in the head, though, depending on what part of the brain was (not) damaged and how quickly you get medical attention and so on. But I hope you are right, I really do. Being reconciled to something isn't the same as liking it.

 

 

No, he is dead.  They all know he was dead.  Molly certainly would have confirmed it, and everyone involved would have confirmed it.  The creators have said he blew the back of his head off (think JFK) but that they couldn't show that because of the time of day the show aired... decency laws.  However, in their minds, he blew is brains out.  There does seem to be a bit of grey matter floating in the blood at first.

[T.o.b.y]

 

No, he is dead.  They all know he was dead.  Molly certainly would have confirmed it, and everyone involved would have confirmed it.  The creators have said he blew the back of his head off (think JFK) but that they couldn't show that because of the time of day the show aired... decency laws.  However, in their minds, he blew is brains out.  There does seem to be a bit of grey matter floating in the blood at first.

 

Well, I do hope you are right. But since there is a ridiculous (and fabulous) amount of foreshadowing on Sherlock, my alarm bells went off when our beloved (not-) hero really died in His Last Vow, only to come back to life. And all that after a seemingly fatal shot, well... what was that for if not to convince us that what Sherlock can do, Moriarty can do better?

 

Anyway, I would prefer the real Moriarty to a twin brother. Although the latter would be wonderfully Doyle-ishly cheesy.

 

 

[sfmpco]

 

 

No, he is dead.  They all know he was dead.  Molly certainly would have confirmed it, and everyone involved would have confirmed it.  The creators have said he blew the back of his head off (think JFK) but that they couldn't show that because of the time of day the show aired... decency laws.  However, in their minds, he blew is brains out.  There does seem to be a bit of grey matter floating in the blood at first.

 

Well, I do hope you are right. But since there is a ridiculous (and fabulous) amount of foreshadowing on Sherlock, my alarm bells went off when our beloved (not-) hero really died in His Last Vow, only to come back to life. And all that after a seemingly fatal shot, well... what was that for if not to convince us that what Sherlock can do, Moriarty can do better?

 

Anyway, I would prefer the real Moriarty to a twin brother. Although the latter would be wonderfully Doyle-ishly cheesy.

 

 

 

 

Well, basically when Sherlock was shot, it was primarily his liver that took the brunt of this shot, and the liver can be 75% destroyed and still regenerate itself within a month.  A truly amazing organ.  His heart stopped but his brain didn't, and he fought his way back.  In a way, it's metaphorical that his heart stopped - I think he really, really loved Mary as a friend and the shock of what she was and what she did to him in a way broke his heart.  It isn't his thoughts of Mary that bring him back but his thoughts of John being in danger that pull him up.  And Sherlock has no hesitation about exposing Mary to John, because his friendship to John is a higher value to him.  John is trusting enough of Sherlock to go along with the ruse of being the dummy at Leinster Gardens while Sherlock gets the confession out of Mary.  

[sfmpco]

I don't think Mary will survive Series 4, which would be a dark turn for John more so than Sherlock.  But it will cause Sherlock to have to deal with his best friend's grief which will humanize him another step.  However, Mary's death might be at the end of the series as part of a cliff-hanger thing.  It will be a very dark moment, for sure.  Would John go back to living at 221B?  Hard to think so because he's built a whole other life with the house and all.  He'll never be able to go back to the bachelor days he had before Mary.  

 

Poor John.  We know it's coming if the creators stay in canon.

[Zain]

Well, if it happens, he has chosen her, and when he did, he accepted the fact that he could get burnt, too, if her past caught up to her. I think pity is not appropriate. He knew what he was choosing, or at least he had the chance to know and apparently threw it away. Do we pity Sherlock, because John at first rejects him in TEH? As you sow, so you shall reap.

[sfmpco]

Well, if it happens, he has chosen her, and when he did, he accepted the fact that he could get burnt, too, if her past caught up to her. I think pity is not appropriate. He knew what he was choosing, or at least he had the chance to know and apparently threw it away. Do we pity Sherlock, because John at first rejects him in TEH? As you sow, so you shall reap.

 

Yes, but the child also doesn't survive in canon... and losing an innocent child takes it to a whole different level.  How dark will they go and still retain some of that humor we love and know so well????  Hard to say, but we're already watching a different Sherlock than the first season.

[Zain]

Well, both accepted the risk to the child, too, when they decided to bury Mary's past again. I mean, John could have asked her to surrender with the condition that the child would be raised in a safer environment. By him, by a lovely couple who cannot have children, or whatever.

Instead, he took his chances. To me, it rather seems like neither of them really cares for the child. They do not think of it, unless it can be used for their convenience, like when Mary wants to manipulate John. They do not take responsibility for it. Neither does John. He is willing to have the child be raised by a murderer who does not even apologize for shooting his best friend, and who does not even admit to her mistakes. Who thinks she was in the right and even wronged by them.

It is rather irresponsible to let a child be raised by someone with such a screwed-up perception. That is not an environment you would place your child in, not forgetting the fact that her past would constantly endanger the child, too. Even if he loved Mary enough to place himself in that sort of danger... he also decided to place the child in that danger, when he gave in.

If they really loved that child, they would let go of it. To protect it from Mary's mistakes, from her past that she is too much of a coward to face. No child deserves to grow up with this kind of target drawn on its back.

[Arcadia]

Well, if it happens, he has chosen her, and when he did, he accepted the fact that he could get burnt, too, if her past caught up to her. I think pity is not appropriate. He knew what he was choosing, or at least he had the chance to know and apparently threw it away. Do we pity Sherlock, because John at first rejects him in TEH? As you sow, so you shall reap.

I agree, pity is not quite the right word, as it implies (these days, at least) that you are somewhat superior to the person being pitied. But absolutely, yes, I felt sorry on behalf of Sherlock when John rejected him, just as I felt sorry for John that he was so hurt.

 

Interesting idea ... just because you know you're with someone who can put you in harm's way, does that mean you "deserve" to be harmed? That doesn't feel quite right to me, something's missing from that equation. In that case, John "deserved" to be hurt by The Fall, as he certainly knew what Sherlock was like.

[Zain]

Well, I would not say you deserve to be harmed, but you certainly cannot act all surprised if you get harmed. It's a risk you take, and when it happens, one must bear it. You cannot say "But it was such a small chance." It's a matter of taking responsibility for your own actions. For yourself, especially when those actions affect other people, like your child.

[Arcadia]

Well, both accepted the risk to the child, too, when they decided to bury Mary's past again. I mean, John could have asked her to surrender with the condition that the child would be raised in a safer environment. By him, by a lovely couple who cannot have children, or whatever.

Instead, he took his chances. To me, it rather seems like neither of them really cares for the child. They do not think of it, unless it can be used for their convenience, like when Mary wants to manipulate John. They do not take responsibility for it. Neither does John. He is willing to have the child be raised by a murderer who does not even apologize for shooting his best friend, and who does not even admit to her mistakes. Who thinks she was in the right and even wronged by them.

It is rather irresponsible to let a child be raised by someone with such a screwed-up perception. That is not an environment you would place your child in, not forgetting the fact that her past would constantly endanger the child, too. Even if he loved Mary enough to place himself in that sort of danger... he also decided to place the child in that danger, when he gave in.

If they really loved that child, they would let go of it. To protect it from Mary's mistakes, from her past that she is too much of a coward to face. No child deserves to grow up with this kind of target drawn on its back.

Well, I know that's your view of Mary, but I seriously doubt if that's the view the creators intend us to have, or that they will choose to go forward with that view in mind. I will be very surprised if John & Mary turn out to be anything but loving, responsible parents -- whatever else they may be in addition to that.

 

Of course, we've been promised a surprise, so anything's possible! Maybe the courts will take the baby away on the basis of endangerment. That would be unexpected! And also a good way to write it out of the story w/o harming it. If John and Mary are as indifferent as you say, they won't even mind. Neat! I've solved the problem!

[Zain]

Well, this is not just about Mary for me. John's decision is wrong on so many levels imo. If they were portrayed as loving parents... I could not but laugh about it. Because their decision not to protect their child from the time bomb Mary is is utterly irresponsible and selfish.

Aaand... well. Let's see. I am rather wary of the episodes to come. You most likely will be right. I do not doubt that. But I certainly hope you are wrong.

[Caya]

 

Well, basically when Sherlock was shot, it was primarily his liver that took the brunt of this shot,

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (again), and I can't check at the moment, but didn't the shot hit him on his left side? He'd have to be quite the alcoholic if his liver was that size.

[sfmpco]

 

 

Well, basically when Sherlock was shot, it was primarily his liver that took the brunt of this shot,

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (again), and I can't check at the moment, but didn't the shot hit him on his left side? He'd have to be quite the alcoholic if his liver was that size.

 

 

He was shot on his right side, just to the right of the midline, exactly into the liver.

[Caya]

Went and made a screengrab in the meantime, and yeah, I remembered that completely wrong (further down and to the left).

 

 

[Censored], is that woman [censored] mad? There's all kinds of sensitive stuff up there. Screw that "surgery" nonsense. Organs move when you breathe, for starters. Unless she has x-ray eyes, there's no [censored] way to shoot someone safely in that area .

 

eta: I realized by now who I got Sherlock confused with ... Professor Henry Jones Senior. That is where you shoot someone when you want them to linger.

[T.o.b.y]

[Censored], is that woman [censored] mad? There's all kinds of sensitive stuff up there. Screw that "surgery" nonsense. Organs move when you breathe, for starters. Unless she has x-ray eyes, there's no [censored] way to shoot someone safely in that area .

 

Oh Martina, you do have a way of putting things... Sure, in real life, I'm completely with you there, but I think Sherlock is playing with a slightly different rule set. Although... he did die. And he only survived through what I would call a F***ing miracle. Or simply the wonder of being Sherlock Holmes. (Btw, I object to how very often in fan fiction, Sherlock is portrayed as a helpless little boy who never grew up. He's not. He's a great man underneath all that childishness. Of course he's vulnerable, though. If he wasn't, he'd be boring).

 

... I seriously doubt if that's the view the creators intend us to have, or that they will choose to go forward with that view in mind. I will be very surprised if John & Mary turn out to be anything but loving, responsible parents -- whatever else they may be in addition to that.

 

Of course, we've been promised a surprise, so anything's possible! Maybe the courts will take the baby away on the basis of endangerment. That would be unexpected! And also a good way to write it out of the story w/o harming it. If John and Mary are as indifferent as you say, they won't even mind. Neat! I've solved the problem!

 

I kind of like your solution, but I'd say it is way too prosaic and realistic to be written into Sherlock. And it's my impression as well that we are expected to be "on Mary's side", to like her and feel for her and "take her back" along with John. The Watson marriage makes no sense to me the way they fixed it, but well, Sherlock - different rule set and all that, so fine, okay, whatever.

I can very well picture John and Mary as lovely parents, for some odd reason. I think Mary would be an unsentimental but still loving, no-fuss, no-nonsense mother and John a surprisingly soft dad, whom his little daughter can do what she likes with. Awww... I'd almost like to see a few glimpses of them as a family. Awww.... Not too much, though. Just a snippet. Like a shot through the half-open door at their house or something like that.

 

I'd probably love it if John could just stay married and be a dad and that were all going on unobtrusively in the background between episodes and we mostly see him running around solving crimes with Sherlock. But I fear that is far too unspectacular for the writers at this point.

 

Yes, but the child also doesn't survive in canon...

 

I don't even remember a child being mentioned in the old stories. It doesn't even say anywhere explicitly that Mary is dead. All I know of is this paragraph in "The Empty Hearse":

 

"In some manner he had learned of my own sad bereavement, and his sympathy was shown in his manner rather than in his words. “Work is the best antidote to sorrow, my dear Watson,” said he."

 

Since Mrs Watson is not mentioned again and the doctor moves back to Baker St and gives up his practice after Holmes' return, I have always assumed that she died. And since a lot of women back then died in childbirth, I have always kind of suspected that may have been the case with her, but that is all conjecture, as far as I know. Watson didn't say very much about his own concerns. After all, he was writing "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes", not "The Private Life of Dr J.H. Watson".

 

Anybody know more? Scholars out there? Fox...?

 

I don't think Mary will survive Series 4, which would be a dark turn for John more so than Sherlock.  But it will cause Sherlock to have to deal with his best friend's grief which will humanize him another step.  However, Mary's death might be at the end of the series as part of a cliff-hanger thing. 

 

Something tells me that simply killing Mary off would be way too predictable for Moffat and Co. I think they'll play with our expectations there and then pull out with some clever twist. Just as long as it's not another fake death. Really, I don't think I could stomach that. And yes, it looks like a good cliffhanger option.

 

------------------------

 

Hmmm... what did they say about next series? The very last thing we expect. Hm. The problem with that is, after series 3, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, I'd not expect from Moffat, Gatiss and the rest of that team. So that's no big help. "Deeper and darker water" - now, that sounds like something I'd be happy with, but we shall see.

 

I wonder whether they'll use "The Blue Carbuncle" for the Christmas Special in some way. It's the only Holmes story set around Christmas that I can remember.

[Arcadia]

Hmmm... what did they say about next series? The very last thing we expect. Hm. The problem with that is, after series 3, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, I'd not expect from Moffat, Gatiss and the rest of that team. So that's no big help.

My thoughts exactly.

[Redbeard]

I don't think Mary will survive Series 4, which would be a dark turn for John more so than Sherlock.  But it will cause Sherlock to have to deal with his best friend's grief which will humanize him another step.  However, Mary's death might be at the end of the series as part of a cliff-hanger thing.  It will be a very dark moment, for sure.  Would John go back to living at 221B?  Hard to think so because he's built a whole other life with the house and all.  He'll never be able to go back to the bachelor days he had before Mary.  

 

Poor John.  We know it's coming if the creators stay in canon.

 

Good point and I think it would be kind of interesting to have John so distraught over the loss of Mary and the baby (and lingering trauma over "losing" Sherlock) that perhaps we have a bit of a role reversal where John goes into a kind of "emotions and caring suck, sentiment is for the losing side" kind of phase, with Sherlock having to help him regain his humanity in some way.  Of course it would be awkward and funny and charming as only Sherlock could do, despite it also being deeper and darker in some respects.  I would not want to see too much grieving and trauma though, hopefully that could be kept mostly off screen and just deal more with the repercussions onscreen.  Maybe that is also what could motivate Sherlock to call Harry Watson in to help, thereby getting her to 221B?    

[Arcadia]

Harry would seriously need to clean up her own act first before she could be any help to John, imo.

 

Let's see, if Sherlock were a 5-act play....

 

Act 1: Inciting action = S1, where we are introduced to Sherlock's world

Act 2: Turning points = S2, several turning points, but notably Reichenbach

Act 3: Climax (aka "crisis decision") = S3, Sherlock setting himself up as the protector of his friends in TSo3. The repercussions are already starting to be felt in HLV.

Act 4: Falling action = S4. More fallout from the "crisis decision". They've already promised they're going darker, so there you go.

Act 5: Resolution = S5. Either a tragic or happy ending, unless they decide to do Season 6, in which case the whole 5 act theory is screwed.

 

Yes, I know there are a dozen other story structures they could be following ... or none ... this has just been percolating in the back of my brain for awhile and I thought I'd throw it out there for your amusement. I'm sure someone will quibble with my identity of the "crisis decision;" have at it!