What would you like to see in series 4?

[Arcadia]

I'd be a lot happier if they'd not just gloss over the fact that Sherlock committed murder, but I have a feeling that Moftiss consider the matter resolved and it will not be heard from again. I think I read some interview with Moffat where he stated (badly paraphrasing here, though) they made Magnussen as loathsome as they possibly could so that everyone would be okay with his murder.

Yuck, I find that attitude itself pretty loathsome -- I don't care to be in a world, even a fictional one, where it's okay to be okay with murder. But I'm afraid you might be right.

[sfmpco]

I seriously doubt that in S4 we will see any regret on Sherlock's part for killing CAM.  He will never express remorse, and I certainly don't think it was right what he did, but it colored his character with a new shade which will carry into S4.  He is not the same SH as in ASIP, and I'm glad for something new  rather than just more of the snarky "smarter than you lot" stuff we got all season 1.  I like seeing his emerging humanization.  I hope we get to see more of the parents - not in huge doses but in little glimpses that give us insight into what makes Sherlock AND Mycroft tick.  Weirdly enough, I wouldn't mind seeing him spiral down into drugs, and I think Moriarty's words in the mind palace sequence of HLV can give us a clue of what not only Sherlock is missing in life but also what he is avoiding.

 

SH:  You.  You never felt pain, did you?  Why did you never feel pain?

Moriarty: You always feel it, Sherlock, but you don't have to fear it.  Pain.  Heartbreak.  Loss.  Death.  It's all good.  It's all good.

 

These are some themes I would like to see in S4.

[Arcadia]

So, that's both a yes and a no, then? Resolved, but it has wrought a change in Sherlock? I tend to agree with you; I suspect the show's going to go darker.

[sfmpco]

So, that's both a yes and a no, then? Resolved, but it has wrought a change in Sherlock? I tend to agree with you; I suspect the show's going to go darker.

 

 

You can't end a series with an episode like HLV and not have that darkness carry over, but how far they will take it is anyone's guess.  I certainly don't want it to get too dark and lose the brilliant humor in the chemistry between the characters.

[Redbeard]

 

  We'll have to see how close Mofftiss sticks to canon in Season's Four and Five.

 

That is one of my fears for series 4.  In an interview Benedict said that he would continue to do the stories as long as he couldand one of the conditions he put on that was that it continued to stay true to the original stories.  I know it was one of the things he said he was proud of, how long-time Sherlock Holmes fans like the show because they got it so right and so true to canon in so many ways.  I am afraid if they start going off TOO much away from canon (and John Watson becoming a daddy seems straying pretty darn far to me) that Benedict might start to question just what show he is doing and use it as an excuse to say bye bye.  I hope not of course, part of me fears it though.  I hope the writers continue to remember they are doing Sherlock Holmes and John Watson, not some nifty little characters of their own creation.  At this point I have perfect trust in them, but I think Series 4 will definitely be the do or die series. 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

At this point I have perfect trust in them, but I think Series 4 will definitely be the do or die series. 

 

  Good heavens, I hope not especially since Season Five is also being blocked out already. But Mofftiss has said that Sherlock has turned out to be their miracle baby, they never dreamed that it would be so big a hit as it has become.  But Gatiss, at least, has also said that they consult "the great man".....meaning Sir Conan Doyle on everything they do...so I do see that continuing. It's just with having to modernize the Victorian it's so hard to predict where they going to take any given story.....exactly like what happened in "HLV".

 

 Gatiss said recently that as much as they love doing it and that goes for BC and MF as well....they have no doubt that if they had done a 60 minute format and had churned them out weekly they would have already lost Cumberbatch and Freeman....so we are lucky to have gotten the nine episodes we have.

 

 

[sfmpco]

 

I know there are fans who have a big problem with Mary but I am not one of them.  I have liked her from the moment she said her first words.  And if Sherlock trusts her now and has forgiven her, we should follow his lead.  We were not privy to everything she confessed to John and Sherlock at the Baker Street flat, but Sherlock has forgiven her.

 

I'm a Mary fan, too, sfmpco ... so I'm with you.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion about her actions and her past ... even though we don't know for sure just what that is ... but I like her.  And, Sherlock likes her.  I don't feel that I'm following Sherlock's lead ... I just like her.  I'd hate to see her killed off, but if it's what makes the story happen, then I'm sure Mofftiss will come up with something effectively dramatic and those of us who like her can mourn and the people who don't can feel that justice was served.  It's all good ... or most of it anyway !  

 

Debbie

 

 

It's not just that Sherlock has forgiven her for shooting him - which he did the moment he said, "I'll take the case." at Leinster Gardens but that John has also forgiven her and has promised "The problems of your past are your business.  The problems of your future are my privilege."  

 

Do I think it's possible that Sherlock knows more that John by the time they go to Appledor?  Possibly. But he's only just gotten out of hospital, so how much research he was able to do while in hospital is debatable.   Will it play out in S4 or S5?  Well, Magnussen had seen files on her, and she had a flash drive full of stuff... so there IS info out there on her somewhere.  Will it come up again?  I kind of suspect we haven't seen the last of it.  

[sfmpco]

 

 

At this point I have perfect trust in them, but I think Series 4 will definitely be the do or die series. 

 

  Good heavens, I hope not especially since Season Five is also being blocked out already. But Mofftiss has said that Sherlock has turned out to be their miracle baby, they never dreamed that it would be so big a hit as it has become.  But Gatiss, at least, has also said that they consult "the great man".....meaning Sir Conan Doyle on everything they do...so I do see that continuing. It's just with having to modernize the Victorian it's so hard to predict where they going to take any given story.....exactly like what happened in "HLV".

 

 Gatiss said recently that as much as they love doing it and that goes for BC and MF as well....they have no doubt that if they had done a 60 minute format and had churned them out weekly they would have already lost Cumberbatch and Freeman....so we are lucky to have gotten the nine episodes we have.

 

 

I see an Academy Award for best actor in BC's very near future, and I hope that doesn't become a game changer for his availability for SHERLOCK, but i do think he genuinely loves the character and series and will continue to commit to it.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

for SHERLOCK, but i do think he genuinely loves the character and series and will continue to commit to it.

 

    Both BC and MF have gotten accolades for Sherlock and a lot of other things they have done separately so I'm not sure if an Academy Award would change anything to much. They are both hot ticket items right now....I don't know if they could get any hotter. But yes, Cumberbatch does love doing Sherlock and hopefully even with this new direction  the character has taken...and yes....he has said in one interview that it made him nervous because he didn't know if the show's fan base would like it.....but if the fandom holds true and numbers don't fall off drastically....then every thing will be fine.

[Arcadia]

Lot of ifs in that statement!

 

I think that's the secret right there ... if the fanbase stays true, the show will stay around for awhile. And vice versa.

 

Actually, a lot of ifs in that statement too...

[by the sea]

It's the choice we make ... or the risk we take, if you will.  Will the show continue to serve up quality entertainment that can stimulate the viewer ?  Look at us !  You can't say many of us are not stimulated !    Can the stories stay true to their origin and continue to please the purists (and Mr. Cumberbatch, apparently ) ?  Can the characters go darker and not offend people ?  Can Mary ever be redeemed in the eyes of those who strongly dislike her ?   Will we still want to watch after whatever is going to happen happens ?  Only time ... and series 4 ... will tell. 

 

For myself ... I want to see what Mr. Holmes can get  up to !

 

Debbie

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

For myself ... I want to see what Mr. Holmes can get  up to !

 

  Absolutely!  As long as Mofftiss, BC and MF keep making them, I'll keep watching. Even the worst of them is a far cry above the run of the mill cop show on TV right now.

[sfmpco]

Not only do I want to see what he can get up to, I would like to see more of the ways his brilliance can manifest itself.  Deductions are great.  The mind palace is great.  But what else is it useful for?  What other things can he do with it?  I love it that he's a grammar nazi!

 

[T.o.b.y]

Can the characters go darker and not offend people ? 

 

The whole thing is already darker than the original, and I'd still like a little bit more. Just a little. I like the darkness in Sherlock a lot.

 

 

  Absolutely!  As long as Mofftiss, BC and MF keep making them, I'll keep watching. Even the worst of them is a far cry above the run of the mill cop show on TV right now.

 

Hear, hear. If I was given the choice to watch The Empty Hearse for the tenth time or turn on a regular German TV program, I'd go for the DVD without even looking at the schedule.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Actually .... was the shooting cold-blooded, or hot-blooded? Anyone? I tend to think Sherlock was acting purely out of emotion, not logic -- or at least, predominantly emotion. That's why they tried to establish how much he detested CAM from the beginning, imo. So, I vote hot-blooded.

In my fevered opinion, Sherlock spent a good bit of that episode working himself up to actually hating CAM -- in other words, cold-bloodedly preparing himself to commit a hot-blooded murder.  So I vote both.

 

The whole thing is already darker than the original, and I'd still like a little bit more. Just a little. I like the darkness in Sherlock a lot.

I like a judicious taste of darkness in my Sherlock -- but I do hope they don't get carried away.  (In my opinion, they're already bordering on borderline.)

 

And I have a whole lot of other DVDs to choose from.

 

[sfmpco]

I don't know how many times i've seen HLV now... parts of it I watch repeatedly - the whole drug den/Molly taking him to task, the shooting and mind palace sequence, confronting Mary and Leinster Gardens/Baker Street where he collapses, the Christmas scenes... Lots to love in this, but the vitriol towards CAM - never sure where that's coming from because we only know that Lady Smallwood hired Sherlock.  Before that, what was his particular interest in CAM??  None that we know of.  Sherlock doesn't even put it together that CAM was behind John being in the fire in TEH.  That's why I said in a previous post that all his babbling about CAM and how much he hates him doesn't ring true.  It's just exposition framed by John's innability to grasp that Sherlock has a girlfriend.

 

Maybe somehow S4 will deal more with the issue of CAM and tie up the loose ends.

[T.o.b.y]

Lots to love in this, but the vitriol towards CAM - never sure where that's coming from because we only know that Lady Smallwood hired Sherlock.  Before that, what was his particular interest in CAM??  None that we know of.  Sherlock doesn't even put it together that CAM was behind John being in the fire in TEH.  That's why I said in a previous post that all his babbling about CAM and how much he hates him doesn't ring true.  It's just exposition framed by John's innability to grasp that Sherlock has a girlfriend.

 

You're probably right, but I never stumbled over this, because I came to the episode with "The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton" firmly imprinted on my mind (it's one of the stories I've read at least ten times). And there it's pretty much the same, neither the reader nor Dr Watson has ever heard of him before, but suddenly, he's the worst person Holmes knows of and he really hates him. This kind of thing happens all the time in the original, because I guess Doyle just made up stuff as he went along.

 

So I kind of felt like I knew Magnussen before and of course Sherlock was going to hate him and of course Magnussen was going to win, because that's what the story is all about. Sherlock stands very well on its own as a series, but I guess it is a bit easier to follow if you look at it as an adaptation... It's a lot of fun that way, that's for sure. I do hope they'll continue to build on original plots and characters. There are so many stories left to tackle (I'm still waiting for "The Speckled Band", for example).

 

 

[Caya]

If CAM is really a thinly-veiled allusion to Rupert Murdoch, as has been stated, Sherlock may well have hated him before and it just never came up. If Magnussen employed (or had his employees employ) similar shady tactics in getting the scoop (and that's probably a given) Sherlock would've heard of him long before, just as we've all heard of the News of the World scandal. And besides, Sherlock's had troubles with the press before. Maybe Ms. Riley was writing for one of CAM's papers?

[T.o.b.y]

Maybe Ms. Riley was writing for one of CAM's papers?

 

Oooh, I like that. That's going straight into my little head-canon.

 

[Arcadia]

 

The whole thing is already darker than the original, and I'd still like a little bit more. Just a little. I like the darkness in Sherlock a lot.

I like a judicious taste of darkness in my Sherlock -- but I do hope they don't get carried away.  (In my opinion, they're already bordering on borderline.)

 

And I have a whole lot of other DVDs to choose from.

 

I guess it depends on one's definition of "dark". If Sherlock's going to become a remorseless avenger, that's too dark for me. If he's just sadder and lonelier, well, I can always use a good cry, I guess. I'm not sure I care what happens with the rest of the characters. (Sorry John!!!! I luv you to bits but the show IS named Sherlock!)

 

I have lots of other DVD's too but somehow I can't get interested in them..... Sherlock's ruined my life .....

 

 

I don't know how many times i've seen HLV now... parts of it I watch repeatedly - the whole drug den/Molly taking him to task, the shooting and mind palace sequence, confronting Mary and Leinster Gardens/Baker Street where he collapses, the Christmas scenes... Lots to love in this, but the vitriol towards CAM - never sure where that's coming from because we only know that Lady Smallwood hired Sherlock.  Before that, what was his particular interest in CAM??  None that we know of.  Sherlock doesn't even put it together that CAM was behind John being in the fire in TEH.  That's why I said in a previous post that all his babbling about CAM and how much he hates him doesn't ring true.  It's just exposition framed by John's innability to grasp that Sherlock has a girlfriend.

 

Maybe somehow S4 will deal more with the issue of CAM and tie up the loose ends.

I still agree, the hate for CAM came out of nowhere and it's hard to believe in, given Sherlock's usually clinical turn of mind. But I think this is another of those instances where the story might move a bit quicker if you were to take Sherlock's word as gospel.

 

Seriously, the more I think about S3 the more I think they really needed another episode or two to do it right. The bones are there, but it's too lightly fleshed out, so there are gaping holes in the, er, um, body ... maybe I should have chosen another metaphor?

 

 

Maybe Ms. Riley was writing for one of CAM's papers?

 

Oooh, I like that. That's going straight into my little head-canon.

 

Oooooh, mine too!

[Arcadia]

What I would like to see in S4 ... a little more backstory. Not a lot, but some.

 

And a really brilliant moment for John.

 

And some more acting hurdles for BC to soar over.

[Arcadia]

And plots that make sense.

[T.o.b.y]

And plots that make sense.

 

That'd be something new... I don't require more "sense" in them than some kind of inherent logic. They don't necessarily have to be possible in the real world, if you ask me. And considering their source material, I think they've infused quite a lot of sense into the cases (sometimes...).

 

About darkness in Sherlock. Well, I think our Sherlock just is a morally much more murky figure than Doyle's Mr Holmes, who was, in my opinion at least, quite clearly a creature of light (if "only" the light of logic), and in spite of some "grim humors" and snarky remarks, a proper gentleman and a full-blooded hero as well. I cannot imagine him denying to be "one of the angels".

 

I love Sherlock the "not-hero". The man who, when asked what result he cares about, gets in the cab in A Study in Pink, for example. Or who quite remorselessly uses his best (and, at that time, "only") friend as a guinea pig in The Hounds of Bakserville. Or who offers the Bruce-Partington plans to Moriarty instead of returning them to the crown. He's growing and developing of course, and I think ultimately, Lestrade will be proven right, and by now, I wouldn't want it otherwise. But I like little reminders, such as we got in His Last Vow, that he's still Sherlock, and not a knight in shining armor.

 

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

 

And plots that make sense.

 

That'd be something new... I don't require more "sense" in them than some kind of inherent logic. They don't necessarily have to be possible in the real world, if you ask me. And considering their source material, I think they've infused quite a lot of sense into the cases (sometimes...).

 

Yes, that's what I mean, you just phrased it better! What I call "internal logic," which I usually apply to sci fi and fantasy but works here too. I don't demand perfection, but sometimes I feel like S3 relies a little too much on the gullibility of the audience. Which isn't polite, at the very least.

 

About darkness in Sherlock. Well, I think our Sherlock just is a morally much more murky figure than Doyle's Mr Holmes, who was, in my opinion at least, quite clearly a creature of light (if "only" the light of logic), and in spite of some "grim humors" and snarky remarks, a proper gentleman and a full-blooded hero as well. I cannot imagine him denying to be "one of the angels".

 

I love Sherlock the "not-hero". The man who, when asked what result he cares about, gets in the cab in A Study in Pink, for example. Or who quite remorselessly uses his best (and, at that time, "only" friend) as a guinea pig in The Hounds of Bakserville. Or who offers the Bruce-Partington plans to Moriarty instead of returning them to the crown. He's growing and developing of course, and I think ultimately, Lestrade will be proven right, and by now, I wouldn't want it otherwise. But I like little reminders, such as we got in His Last Vow, that he's still Sherlock, and not a knight in shining armor.

Nope, me for the shining knight, sorry! I want to root for my heroes to achieve their goals, not hope that they don't. I know that's considered boring in this modern, more morally ambiguous age, but that's exactly why I find it interesting ... how does one maintain decency in a world that increasingly seems to de-value it?

 

One of the things I like about Sherlock is how the characters learn and grow from episode to episode. (Sort of.) So I enjoyed the slightly suicidal Sherlock, and the highly insensitive Sherlock, but only because he has to start somewhere and grow from there. If he remains static; always the self-absorbed, ego-driven child; that's pretty dark, but it's not very interesting to me.

 

It's all a matter of nuance, I guess. If by "dark" we mean more self-centered, self-destructive behaviour ... kinda been there, done that. If by "dark" we mean Sherlock increasingly gets to lie, manipulate and murder without censure, because he's a law unto himself ...  now THAT is what I call boring. That's most drama these days, imo. If by "dark" we mean the challenges we humans face in the quest for decency ... yeah, that I can get into.

 

End of

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think what I meant by "dark" in the possibly-pejorative sense would be more against-character developments for no apparent reason other than to "fool" us.  I like character development, but I like it to be reasonably organic.  One big appeal of drama for me is that (unlike real life) things generally happen for a reason, so it all hangs together and makes some sort of sense.

 

I kinda lost my taste for Friends when they inexplicably turned Ross into a jerk.  (I'd had a little crush on the sweet, shy nerd that he was before.)