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Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"


Undead Medic

What did you think of "The Six Thatchers"?  

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    • 7/10 Slightly above the norm.
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I don't think we can know for sure if Sherlock lies to Mycroft or not. For example, he sometimes says he knows things ... like saying he realizes John slept on the sofa at Sarah's ... but he could be fibbing just so he doesn't look stupider than Mycroft.

 

I don't remember which scene you're referring to in this episode either, but Sherlock lies so often to so many people when it serves his purpose; I don't see why he'd stop when it came to Mycroft.

 

I was looking for blatant examples of lying, as opposed to examples where we aren't sure one way or the other.  By the sounds of it, prior to this episode, we haven't seen any.

 

The one I'm referring to is right at the beginning of the episode:

 

"Are you TWEETING?!"

"No."

"Well, that's what it looks like"

"No, of course I'm not tweeting.  Why would I be tweeting?"

 

I also don't think we've seen Sherlock supposedly embarrassed or reticent at being 'discovered' doing something others would frown upon.  He has shown disdain and indifference and defiance in regard to his brother (and authority figures in general).  But he has never been shy or worried about what they think.  Quite the opposite. 

 

This would appear to be another example of trashing character (Sherlock's) for a cheap laugh.

 

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So, if your brain has enough data to process beneath the conscious thinking, you will get a flashes of precognition. I think Mary was able to foresee that Mrs Norbury will shoot, that’s why she could take the bullet - she started to move before the shot actually happened. Even if it’s not really shown that way. :)

Yes, I think they showed that she anticipated that Norbury was not as harmless as Sherlock seemed to think she was. I can believe she was in motion the moment the gun was raised again.

 

What I don’t really understand, why Mary entered the room thinking that there is a kind of trouble inside.

She heard voices; maybe there wasn't supposed to be anyone there.

 

As Mycroft calls Sherrinford there is a new musical motif appearing.

It's the same music they played during many of the train sequences in TEH, and I thought it was terribly out of place here, especially given what had just happened. That was another weird thing about this episode ... so much of the soundtrack sounded recycled, and didn't always quite fit. The one new theme I noticed played during John's dalliance, and it sounded like something out of a romcom. Just another example of this episode almost seeming to be from some other program...... :blink:

 

The woman detective looked a bit like Janine. Was she talking with Greg about Sherlock when she said: it’s nothing serious?!

Yep. Think they're trying to launch a new ship? :D

 

And there was DI Gimmick talking about the limbless body, or did I dream it?

Nope, that was him.

 

Sherlock said in HLV that Mary is hiding from someone. It wasn’t AGRA, because she thought all are dead.

I would assume she was hiding from whoever betrayed AGRA. And CAM implied there were other people ... family/friends of victims, perhaps ... she had to fear, as well.

 

Who sent the CD with Mary’s message?

I believe you can set up an executor ... that is, someone who will follow your instructions after you die. So, "If I'm found dead, please send this to Sherlock Holmes" would do it. The sender wouldn't have to know what it was all about.

 

When she says „save John Watson“ she… how do you call the head movement that’s opposite to nodding?

"She shook her head."

 

I think, Sherlock’s hair is shorter. A bit. On the neck.

And flatter. Wiglock? (And if it is, why didn't they use the wig from TAB? It was much fluffier and cuter. Just another thing that makes this episode look like it was either short of funds, or just sloppy ... sigh. But I notice his hair doesn't look any better in the E2 trailers. But I don't think he's supposed to look good, there.)

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Just had my third viewing of TST and have been catching up on this thread. Regarding John's anger with Sherlock, I feel there are certain plausible reasons for it.

 

For one, John has this hero-image of Sherlock, and an image of Mary as a vulnerable woman in need of protection. For Mary to take a bullet for Sherlock is like the weak protecting the strong, in John's mind. He knows Sherlock doesn't need protection, and thinks that his wife does. Plus, Sherlock made a vow to do just that, and by doing so, Sherlock reinforced that "dragon slayer" image. As T.o.b.y put it:

 

John, you ass, Mary needs protection from you two less than anybody in the world and if she decides to jump in front of a gun, that's her choice and she has a perfectly good right to make it. You really are as Victorian in your attitudes as Sherlock painted you in his Mind Palace Drug Trip.

 

Besides, just the fact that Mary is dead because of a bullet directed at Sherlock is reason enough for a grieving John to be angry, however irrational it is.

 

Another reason for John directing his anger at Sherlock should probably be found in the relationship between them. John thinks he knows Sherlock only too well, and what he knows makes him an easy target for John's anger. Amber puts it well:

 

I know, Sherlock made a vow, but it's not his fault if Mary's dead. Well, a little bit is his fault, because he had to keep her away from danger, but we've seen that Mary had no intenctions to be protected. And  I believe that Watson knows that, but he is suffering too muche and he needs someone to be angry with and who's better that his sociopathic and egocentric and very unpleasant friend?

 

It's easy to blame the sociopath, who, by the way, was also a bit of an ass when he "returned from the dead", making jokes about it, not really understanding what he had put John through.

 

The above reasons are enough to make John angry for a while, but not forever. What I fear is that somehow John now knows how Sherlock provoked Mrs. Norbury. Considering John's experiences with Sherlock's arrogance and tendencies to show off, and how many times he has warned Sherlock against that, it seems near unforgivable if that arrogance has lead to the death of John's beloved wife. To John, I think that might be unforgivable for a very, very long time. I honestly hope he doesn't know.

 

The sad part here is - besides John shutting out Sherlock - that John probably doesn't even know how badly he is hurting the man. He probably thinks that Sherlock, while upset, still doesn't understand John's feelings and is careless with them. In John's mind, Sherlock might only ever get really upset when something hurts Sherlock himself - like when John was angry with him in TEH. But as it is, John would be wrong to think this way. Sherlock is obviously hurting deeply. The two friends need each other, and John, in his pain, is unable to realise that.

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Here's one idea- 'The curtain rises' and 'the last act', are both theatrical terms- so are they insinuating that what happens next is a bit of theater- with John as the audience?

 

So, Sherlock and Mary plan between them how to fake her death- either get the woman to shoot her, or have her jump in front of Sherlock etc etc, and John is their most important witness. Sherlock keeps his vow, but John is in the dark.

 

I think that is backed up by her 'being Mary Watson' line too.

 

You know, I don't think that John's texting is what we think it is.

 

Is it possible he has been going along with the texting, knowing it is a trap, either with Sherlock's blessing (for a case) or just for the thrill?

 

 

Alas, I'm afraid it is possible. I hate to think they'd use the "fake death" plot again, but if they are, I sure hope it turns out that John's in on it this time. Otherwise, I don't blame him if he never wants to see Sherlock again.

 

Ooooooh, here's a thought ... maybe John's in on it, but this time it's all been staged to fool Sherlock into being the witness! That's why John wouldn't let him touch Mary's body, and why he won't see him .... as soon as Sherlock saw his face, he'd know John was lying.

 

Okay, someone call the people with the straightjackets and send them over ... I've been in this fandom wayyyyy to long.... :blink:

 

I would also say that this time Sherlock was totally wrong, about the black pearl, that's a very strange thing. He's loosing, from some point of view, don't you think?

Hi Amber!

 

Yes, I think that may be what they are trying to show us; Sherlock is not at the top of his game any more. He also said a couple of times that he had been "too slow." I don't know if it's supposed to be because he's too emotionally involved, or if it's just because he's getting older. But if it's the latter ... come on, guys, 40 isn't that old! <_<

 

 

I don't think we can know for sure if Sherlock lies to Mycroft or not. For example, he sometimes says he knows things ... like saying he realizes John slept on the sofa at Sarah's ... but he could be fibbing just so he doesn't look stupider than Mycroft.

 

I don't remember which scene you're referring to in this episode either, but Sherlock lies so often to so many people when it serves his purpose; I don't see why he'd stop when it came to Mycroft.

 

I was looking for blatant examples of lying, as opposed to examples where we aren't sure one way or the other.  By the sounds of it, prior to this episode, we haven't seen any.

 

The one I'm referring to is right at the beginning of the episode:

 

"Are you TWEETING?!"

"No."

"Well, that's what it looks like"

"No, of course I'm not tweeting.  Why would I be tweeting?"

 

I also don't think we've seen Sherlock supposedly embarrassed or reticent at being 'discovered' doing something others would frown upon.  He has shown disdain and indifference and defiance in regard to his brother (and authority figures in general).  But he has never been shy or worried about what they think.  Quite the opposite. 

 

This would appear to be another example of trashing character (Sherlock's) for a cheap laugh.

 

Okay, I see what you mean. I just can't remember one way or the other. But either way, I agree that was a pretty cheap laugh. In a different setting it might have been funny, but not there.

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"Are you TWEETING?!"

"No."

"Well, that's what it looks like"

"No, of course I'm not tweeting.  Why would I be tweeting?"

 

I also don't think we've seen Sherlock supposedly embarrassed or reticent at being 'discovered' doing something others would frown upon.  He has shown disdain and indifference and defiance in regard to his brother (and authority figures in general).  But he has never been shy or worried about what they think.  Quite the opposite. 

 

This would appear to be another example of trashing character (Sherlock's) for a cheap laugh.

 

 

That one didn't ring entirely true for me, either. I should have thought that Sherlock wouldn't care. However, we have seen just how childish Sherlock can get around Mycroft (in TGG and ASiB), so I don't find it completely out of character. Maybe it's more that Sherlock doesn't want Mycroft taking his things, rather than it's embarrassment at being found out.

 

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That is quite possible, J.P.!

 

I just remembered - when it comes to John - after s3 some of us talked about how it would be a good change to see John mess up a little. That's what's happening now. He apparently had an affair, and he is now shutting out Sherlock.

 

I really hope the affair thing doesn't turn out to be a ridiculous scam. It makes sense for John and Mary's marriage to be a bit messed up after HLV. Besides, certain things would not make sense in TST, if it was a scam - like why anyone would write "Miss you" to John, or why he would mention that Mary's is not the only one who's been lying, or why he had something he needed to talk to Mary about.

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Well, to be fair to John, Sherlock has worked hard to maintain that façade! :smile:

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"Are you TWEETING?!"

"No."

"Well, that's what it looks like"

"No, of course I'm not tweeting.  Why would I be tweeting?"

 

I also don't think we've seen Sherlock supposedly embarrassed or reticent at being 'discovered' doing something others would frown upon.  He has shown disdain and indifference and defiance in regard to his brother (and authority figures in general).  But he has never been shy or worried about what they think.  Quite the opposite. 

 

This would appear to be another example of trashing character (Sherlock's) for a cheap laugh.

 

 

That one didn't ring entirely true for me, either. I should have thought that Sherlock wouldn't care. However, we have seen just how childish Sherlock can get around Mycroft (in TGG and ASiB), so I don't find it completely out of character. Maybe it's more that Sherlock doesn't want Mycroft taking his things, rather than it's embarrassment at being found out.

 

 

 

Another one who found that exchange odd- partly because it seemed like a grasping for laughs in an episode mostly weighed down by a very sombre tone.

 

But Sherlock constantly texting was something that was mentioned in the birth announcement, so there is more to it, right? He's solving crimes by text, he's on his phone at the wedding, John is getting a lot of dodgy looking texts, and then its the final two that draw Mary to her fate. Do they all mean something?

 

Contemplating hiding under the couch rather than watching the next episode. I really hope it isn't another very dark one.

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For Mary to take a bullet for Sherlock is like the weak protecting the strong, in John's mind. He knows Sherlock doesn't need protection, and thinks that his wife does.

just the fact that Mary is dead because of a bullet directed at Sherlock

Except John didn't arrive until well after Mary was on the ground.  He didn't know she took a bullet for anyone.  He just knows she's been shot.  Nothing more.

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Ooooooh, here's a thought ... maybe John's in on it, but this time it's all been staged to fool Sherlock into being the witness! That's why John wouldn't let him touch Mary's body

Except that Sherlock did touch Mary's body and was holding the wound (presumably to try to stop the blood) BEFORE John even enters the scene.

 

In other words, while I wouldn't put it past Moffat et al to reverse the "fake death" (because it would just be more of the stupid writing we're getting lately), it would be too much to claim Sherlock couldn't tell the difference between a squib/blood bag prop strapped to Mary's chest and a hole in Mary's chest. 

 

The same is true about John as well.  If this was a fake death by Sherlock and Mary alone, then he would have immediately figured it out as well.  The ONLY way it is a fake death is if EVERYONE were in on it.  And that's just 'too much stupid in the room'.

 

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To me the scene would be better if they cut the fight. But they needed Sherlock acting stupid so Sir Edwin can have the line about him being high, so also that would be adressed and resolved (well, a kind of)

 

I agree.  A lot of it was violating Characterization to satisfy Plot (ie another example of the bad writing I keep complaining about).  I also believe there is likely some as-yet-unexplained reason Sherlock wanted someone out in the world to know that he was 'back' (which would imply a LOT to thoughtful Sherlock audience members). 

 

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Another Question (what number is this now?):

What was the point of the whole "Miss Me? bit"  It got everyone's attention.  But it was, in the Sherlock timeframe, YEARS after Moriarty died (and supposedly his entire network destroyed).  That seems like an awfully long time to get revenge/last Game etc.  And it was an isolated incident (ie was not part of a rash of incidents or the indicator that the Game Is On, since MONTHS pass after the "Miss Me" incident with nothing else happening).  The ONLY purpose it served was to get Sherlock a pardon.

That makes it just ANOTHER in a long line of STUPID COINCIDENCES.  In other words, another example of the HORRIBLE writing I've been talking about.

- OR -

It could have been Mycroft.  He could have concocted it as a way to save his little brother.  In the very first episode of Sherlock, we see that Sherlock is capable of hacking any and all phones he wishes.  Given his much greater resources, it seems likely Mycroft could do the same with any and all tvs.  And, if one watches the beginning of this episode, when Sherlock twice responds to questions about what Moriarty is up to, they cut to Mycroft silently appraising Sherlock each time.  Were these just random, meaningless cutaways?  Or was Mycroft watching to see if Sherlock has figured it out - or with worry as to where the false idea of a Game with Moriarty might lead him?

 

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Contemplating hiding under the couch rather than watching the next episode. I really hope it isn't another very dark one.

In that case, you might want something sturdier than your couch, I think they've promised the next one will be even darker. :P

 

Another Question (what number is this now?):

 

What was the point of the whole "Miss Me? bit"  It got everyone's attention.  But it was, in the Sherlock timeframe, YEARS after Moriarty died (and supposedly his entire network destroyed).  That seems like an awfully long time to get revenge/last Game etc.  And it was an isolated incident (ie was not part of a rash of incidents or the indicator that the Game Is On, since MONTHS pass after the "Miss Me" incident with nothing else happening).  The ONLY purpose it served was to get Sherlock a pardon.

 

That makes it just ANOTHER in a long line of STUPID COINCIDENCES.  In other words, another example of the HORRIBLE writing I've been talking about.

Well, it was years after Moriarty died, but it was a relatively short time after Sherlock "returned to life." Plus he was being sent away for good, so maybe whatever is coming isn't ready yet, but the "miss me" video was released to keep Sherlock in the country? That all seems rather complicated, though, I actually would prefer your theory below...

 

- OR -

 

It could have been Mycroft.  He could have concocted it as a way to save his little brother.  In the very first episode of Sherlock, we see that Sherlock is capable of hacking any and all phones he wishes.  Given his much greater resources, it seems likely Mycroft could do the same with any and all tvs.  And, if one watches the beginning of this episode, when Sherlock twice responds to questions about what Moriarty is up to, they cut to Mycroft silently appraising Sherlock each time.  Were these just random, meaningless cutaways?  Or was Mycroft watching to see if Sherlock has figured it out - or with worry as to where the false idea of a Game with Moriarty might lead him?

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Contemplating hiding under the couch rather than watching the next episode. I really hope it isn't another very dark one.

In that case, you might want something sturdier than your couch, I think they've promised the next one will be even darker. :P

 

 I am half regretting buying cinema tickets for the last one, as where will I hide in there? I really underestimated how dark they would go. I genuinely thought all the creepy cast photos were just empty posturing.

 

 

It could have been Mycroft.  He could have concocted it as a way to save his little brother. 

 

 

I like this idea. Especially because there is some unfinished business in terms of Mycroft's prior relationship to Moriarty. I wonder could we find out 'the other one' had some contact with Moriarty as well?

 

With the fine line between genius and madness, I also wonder is there any chance Sherrinford (if it is a person) could have been in some kind of asylum all this time? And if he really is the black sheep of the family, could he have known Sherrinford well enough to encourage him to pursue Sherlock? I wonder what it is about the chain of evens in Six Thatchers that prompts Mycroft to make that call.

 

 

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 That all seems rather complicated

 

Too complicated/far fetched.  It would require an amount of information about Mycroft and his government that we KNOW Moriarty doesn't possess (I say this because Moriarty required Sherlock's help to discover what Mycroft was doing in regard to the string of numbers and letters held by The Woman.  He didn't have a clue about it).

 

 

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And the amount of exposition it would require to make it clear to the casual viewer ... let's hope they don't go there!
 

With the fine line between genius and madness, I also wonder is there any chance Sherrinford (if it is a person) could have been in some kind of asylum all this time? And if he really is the black sheep of the family, did he ever have ties to Moriarty- or even encourage him to pursue Sherlock?


That reminds me ... going back to this...
o2QiPt0.jpg
If that "curtain rises" text really was sent only to Mary, and the other one only to John ... Who else do we know who might possibly have the initials SH? ;)

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Two 'SH''s that is just perfect!

 

It would also explain why the 'voice' is different in Mary's one- more poetic, whereas John's is in a style we have seen Sherlock write in before. Unless Mary just makes Sherlock come over all poetic  :blink:

 

Sure, I guess Sherlock and Mary might as well just have had an affair too and make everything even!- what a perfect ending to season 4. ;)

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Series 4 cliffhanger ... Rosie has a half-brother! :d

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I don't know if Mary brings out the poetry in Sherlock, but the muse does seem to be contagious:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/05/arts/television/sherlock-bbc-creator-responds-to-critic-in-verse-season-4.html?_r=0

 

:d

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That reminds me ... going back to this...

o2QiPt0.jpg

 

I just realized something else about these texts.  I haven't rewatched the whole thing again to make certain, but I don't believe any other texts in the episode are shown to end themselves in SH.  I know there are many to John which do not have such an ending.  If I am correct, it does make this inclusion on EACH intriguing.  IOW, it suggests it is a clue for the audience.  If true, I would surmise it is indeed supposed to indicate they are each supposed to be individualized messages sent to just Mary and John respectively.

 

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And the amount of exposition it would require to make it clear to the casual viewer ... let's hope they don't go there!

 

With the fine line between genius and madness, I also wonder is there any chance Sherrinford (if it is a person) could have been in some kind of asylum all this time? And if he really is the black sheep of the family, did he ever have ties to Moriarty- or even encourage him to pursue Sherlock?

That reminds me ... going back to this...

o2QiPt0.jpg

If that "curtain rises" text really was sent only to Mary, and the other one only to John ... Who else do we know who might possibly have the initials SH? ;)

 

 SH = Sherrinford Holmes?

 

People are already speculating that the Sherrinford that Mycroft wanted to talk to in the end was the third Holmes brother.

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And the amount of exposition it would require to make it clear to the casual viewer ... let's hope they don't go there!

 

With the fine line between genius and madness, I also wonder is there any chance Sherrinford (if it is a person) could have been in some kind of asylum all this time? And if he really is the black sheep of the family, did he ever have ties to Moriarty- or even encourage him to pursue Sherlock?

That reminds me ... going back to this...

o2QiPt0.jpg

If that "curtain rises" text really was sent only to Mary, and the other one only to John ... Who else do we know who might possibly have the initials SH? ;)

 

 SH = Sherrinford Holmes?

In this context, I don't believe so.  I believe both are from Sherlock.  The timing is FAR too coincidental, Sherlock was not surprised that Mary showed up (nor was he surprised she was by herself), and the prose is similar to that which he used in TAB: "The stage is set.  The curtain rises."

 

 

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