Jump to content

Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"


Undead Medic

What did you think of "The Six Thatchers"?  

93 members have voted

  1. 1. Add your vote here:

    • 10/10 Excellent.
    • 9/10 Not quite the best, but not far off.
    • 8/10 Certainly worth watching again.
    • 7/10 Slightly above the norm.
    • 6/10 Average.
    • 5/10 Slightly sub-par.
    • 4/10 Decidedly below average.
    • 3/10 Pretty Poor.
      0
    • 2/10 Bad.
    • 1/10 Awful.


Recommended Posts

Keep forgetting to ask, what is the relevance of the case Sherlock tells Mrs Hudson to mention to him when he's getting cocky? I assume it's an ACD canon reference?

 

I believe its the Adventure of the Yellow Face, where Holmes seems to get everything wrong and later asks Watson to just say "Norbury" if he is ever getting too full of himself.  I think, in the canon case, Norbury is a town, but of course here, Norbury is a last name.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Me too, the first time.

 

Gee, I wonder if that's why I seldom enjoy other programs to extent I do Sherlock ... because I'm not really catching all the dialog, and can't be bothered to go back and watch them again to find out what I missed. Geez, I could being watching total brilliance and never know it. :d

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Me too, the first time.

 

Gee, I wonder if that's why I seldom enjoy other programs to extent I do Sherlock ... because I'm not really catching all the dialog, and can't be bothered to go back and watch them again to find out what I missed. Geez, I could being watching total brilliance and never know it. :D

 

I have gotten to the point that I watch everything with closed captioning.  Apparently, I had been missing a lot!  :-)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to do that a lot, but then I found I was reading and not watching, so I was still missing a lot. Rats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there are many shows clever enough to need a rewatch to understand, which is lucky or I'd never have any time for anything. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fascinating! Mr Spock would not have appreciated your failure to read previous posts here and in Carol's Canon references in TST! My very first post about this episode was to mention The Yellow Face and The Sign of The Four, The Valley of Fear (Porlock, who must be Mrs Norbury, after all,) and The Canary Trainer pointers.

But that is not what I wanted to point out. It's all about hair, this time, and specifically Mary's hair. At Christmas (HLV) its length is scarcely below her ears. By the time of Rosamund's birth, say early February, it's gone to shoulder length and the fringe has turned into side-swept curls. Human hair grows approximately 2 cm every 20 days. Even in TAB, on the aeroplane, her hair is consistently short to reflect the end of HLV. It is a very careless continuity error, but lost in the flurry of other inconsistencies.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe she just got hair extensions?

 

I've been thinking of trying to give this one another go and see if I like it more. But I'm still not over them killing Mary. I was watching TSOT again today, and I felt so sad for John and Mary that they got so little time together and so much of it was troubled. It makes me worry, as well, that we won't ever be able to have a full-on lighthearted episode again, if they come back, because the mood has become so much darker.

 

Has anyone liked this more on repeated viewings?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alas, I have not. I've been a little more inured to it, is all.

 

However, I haven't seen it for a couple of weeks and I'm watching it tonite, and hoping that I will be more reconciled to it, this time.

 

I don't really mind them killing off Mary, but I agree wholeheartedly that they did it far too effing soon. And that's one of the lesser complaints I have! Ah, me.....

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has it's issues, no doubt about that, but I enjoyed the episode when I first watched it and still enjoyed it on a second watch. 

 

The thing that bothers me with Mary is not that they killed her but the apparent inconsistencies between how she is portrayed here and what we've seen before. For example 'your accent is English but I suspect you are not' except she apparently is since she is consistently referred to as the English woman here, including by AJ who has the files of her true identity. The whole 'don't look at the A.G.R.A. stick in front of me because if you love me now you won't when your done' spiel - meaning she's done some terrible things John would condemn her for... except the only mission we see her participate in or even hear about is something heroic - liberating an embassy from terrorists. 

 

I don't like that the shooting of Sherlock is never really addressed. Along with the events of TLD (being ambiguous to avoid spoilers but you know what I'm referring to) the fact we are meant to just accept that the people he loves do terrible things to him and it's okay, I hate that. What is even the point of it if there is never any real resolution, if things are never discussed or brought to a head? I don't like the recent trend of horribly hurting the main character through those he likes and loves - I can take it through the villain du jour, but through John and Mary it bugs me.

 

The idea of Mary sacrificing herself for Sherlock is ridiculous - not only did she happily shoot him, threaten to do so again, and then cheerily see him off on a suicide mission, but she also has a small child to think about - given her past actions there is no way I can believe she would place Sherlock's life over Rosie's wellbeing in having a mother. I know it was a split second decision, and that she was probably hoping the bullet would hit somewhere less vital, but I don't think she would even have the instinct to do that. Even if she'd tried to shove Sherlock aside and been hit it would have been move convincing than her diving in front of him. 

 

There is also the idea John would just happen to marry an ex-agent, who happens to be working at his surgery, who has nothing to do with any of their past cases or Moriarty... it's a hell of a coincidence, and as Sherlock would remind us the universe is rarely so lazy... except Moftiss apparently are. I think I would have preferred Mary having the connection to Moriarty that was teased by the 'miss me' discs, yea it might sound a bit soap operaish to have her be evil/have an evil past but we were already primed for that with the 'you won't love me' comment, and honestly is there a more soap opera idea than

a secret evil sister?

 

 

EDIT: Forgot to add, yes, one of Mary's dying words was to apologise for the shooting, but that feels like something they just shoehorned in at the last minute, as if they suddenly realised they should probably redeem it somehow. Well, you know what, with a pathetic little apology like that it doesn't really have the impact it should. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, which part did you enjoy, again? :P

It must be true that absence makes the heart grow fonder, because after watching this episode again last night, and not having seen it for a couple weeks ... many of the things that bothered me about it before didn't even register this time.

However, the things that still annoy me the most occur at the beginning and the end, so the more tolerable middle part gets overshadowed by the intolerable parts.

What still annoys me? Sherlock's silly, childish behavior at the beginning, especially during the Magnussen hearing. It's bad enough that the resolution was just some big government cover up, but they didn't even have the decency to show Sherlock being somewhat chastened by the experience. Murder without consequence, ugh.

The other part that still rankles is Mary's death scene. Maudlin, trite; improved only by a heroic effort from Martin. Double ugh. Easily my least favorite scene in all 13 episodes. John's tragedy deserved better treatment.

I agree with all the inconsistencies about Mary's past that Pseud points out, but since I never believed CAM was telling the whole truth about her anyway, I can let all that slide. My thought all along was that it would turn out her past life was more heroic than evil, and that thinking John wouldn't love her for it was a miscalculation on her part. They could have shown that instead of ignoring it, but either way, I always figured she'd go out a hero. And maybe Sherlock's "suspicion" about her accent was merely wrong.
 
I did like the portrayal of Sherlock once things got serious. The pool fight is still boring, but worth getting through just to see that hero shot of him facing down Ajay, dripping wet. :naughty: I liked his determination to protect his friends, and I liked that his arrogance was their downfall.
 
My favorite scene in the whole episode is Mary going to all that trouble to disappear, only to have Sherlock waiting there for her when she reaches her destination. And I liked the scene between her and John that followed; bittersweet. I like that John and Mary had a complicated relationship, that he still hadn't forgiven her for her lies, but loved her anyway. Rather like his relationship with a certain detective.
 
Poor John. He's still the emotional punching bag in this series, maybe

it's only fitting that Sherlock becomes the physical manifestation of that.


 
The cinematic appearance of this episode (or rather, lack thereof) no longer bothers me the way it once did, except for Ben's shiny orange makeup and truly dreadful hair. It still doesn't have the glorious dynamism of TLD, but I got caught up in the story enough this time around that I didn't really pay attention to that aspect of it. That's faint praise, but there you go.
 
But the best part was seeing how it foreshadowed episode 3, which I won't go into because of, y'know, spoilers. Also because I've babbled on enough already. But I did enjoy the feeling of this being the first third of a much larger story. It really does sort of work to kill Mary off at the start instead of the end, because of the way it affects the relationship between the boys. I'm just sorry John didn't get to spend more time with her before suffering such a loss.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

There is also the idea John would just happen to marry an ex-agent, who happens to be working at his surgery, who has nothing to do with any of their past cases or Moriarty... it's a hell of a coincidence, and as Sherlock would remind us the universe is rarely so lazy... except Moftiss apparently are. I think I would have preferred Mary having the connection to Moriarty that was teased by the 'miss me' discs, yea it might sound a bit soap operaish to have her be evil/have an evil past but we were already primed for that with the 'you won't love me' comment, and honestly is there a more soap opera idea than

a secret evil sister?

 

 

I would have much rathered if she were involved with Moriarty too. And I do think there was something to the fact she had worked for Mycroft before- it is way too much of a coincidence that an assassin that used to work for him magically ended up with John. My head-canon is that she was semi-retired and Mycroft asked her to keep a low level surveillance on him.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

But the best part was seeing how it foreshadowed episode 3, which I won't go into because of, y'know, spoilers. Also because I've babbled on enough already. But I did enjoy the feeling of this being the first third of a much larger story. It really does sort of work to kill Mary off at the start instead of the end, because of the way it affects the relationship between the boys. I'm just sorry John didn't get to spend more time with her before suffering such a loss.

Yup

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although the Vikings conquered half of Europe at one point, and are even said to have reached North America, in the Vinland saga, by now the endings -son for son and -dotti'r , not do'ttir for daughter are ONLY used by Icelanders, not Swedish people, as Sherlock claims in his time-out of having fun.

Which reminds me of another reason to get angry at HLV: of all the names in the world, they picked Magnussen! Did they remember the brilliant host of the long-running game Mastermind, Magnus Magnusson, and decide to have a go?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has it's issues, no doubt about that, but I enjoyed the episode when I first watched it and still enjoyed it on a second watch. 

 

The thing that bothers me with Mary is not that they killed her but the apparent inconsistencies between how she is portrayed here and what we've seen before. For example 'your accent is English but I suspect you are not' except she apparently is since she is consistently referred to as the English woman here, including by AJ who has the files of her true identity. The whole 'don't look at the A.G.R.A. stick in front of me because if you love me now you won't when your done' spiel - meaning she's done some terrible things John would condemn her for... except the only mission we see her participate in or even hear about is something heroic - liberating an embassy from terrorists. 

 

I don't like that the shooting of Sherlock is never really addressed. Along with the events of TLD (being ambiguous to avoid spoilers but you know what I'm referring to) the fact we are meant to just accept that the people he loves do terrible things to him and it's okay, I hate that. What is even the point of it if there is never any real resolution, if things are never discussed or brought to a head? I don't like the recent trend of horribly hurting the main character through those he likes and loves - I can take it through the villain du jour, but through John and Mary it bugs me.

 

The idea of Mary sacrificing herself for Sherlock is ridiculous - not only did she happily shoot him, threaten to do so again, and then cheerily see him off on a suicide mission, but she also has a small child to think about - given her past actions there is no way I can believe she would place Sherlock's life over Rosie's wellbeing in having a mother. I know it was a split second decision, and that she was probably hoping the bullet would hit somewhere less vital, but I don't think she would even have the instinct to do that. Even if she'd tried to shove Sherlock aside and been hit it would have been move convincing than her diving in front of him. 

 

There is also the idea John would just happen to marry an ex-agent, who happens to be working at his surgery, who has nothing to do with any of their past cases or Moriarty... it's a hell of a coincidence, and as Sherlock would remind us the universe is rarely so lazy... except Moftiss apparently are. I think I would have preferred Mary having the connection to Moriarty that was teased by the 'miss me' discs, yea it might sound a bit soap operaish to have her be evil/have an evil past but we were already primed for that with the 'you won't love me' comment, and honestly is there a more soap opera idea than

a secret evil sister?

 

 

EDIT: Forgot to add, yes, one of Mary's dying words was to apologise for the shooting, but that feels like something they just shoehorned in at the last minute, as if they suddenly realised they should probably redeem it somehow. Well, you know what, with a pathetic little apology like that it doesn't really have the impact it should. 

 

Just to comment on the bolded paragraph, I don't find the sacrifice ridiculous precisely because Mary had already made the decision that her family would be safer without her around to put a target on their backs...that is why she tried to flee England in the first place.  Sure they talked her into coming home, but she may have still believed that they would be in more danger with her there.  So I am sure she had multiple motives for that, saving Sherlock was definitely one, but also knowing that John and Rosie were going to be safer in the world with Sherlock Holmes around rather than her, played into her thinking too.  So she was selfless on two counts for doing that, sacrificing herself not just for Sherlock's life but also for her family's safety. (I think that's pretty noble, and I don't even like her lol)

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

The idea of Mary sacrificing herself for Sherlock is ridiculous - not only did she happily shoot him, threaten to do so again, and then cheerily see him off on a suicide mission, but she also has a small child to think about - given her past actions there is no way I can believe she would place Sherlock's life over Rosie's wellbeing in having a mother. I know it was a split second decision, and that she was probably hoping the bullet would hit somewhere less vital, but I don't think she would even have the instinct to do that. Even if she'd tried to shove Sherlock aside and been hit it would have been move convincing than her diving in front of him. 

 

 

Just to comment on the bolded paragraph, I don't find the sacrifice ridiculous precisely because Mary had already made the decision that her family would be safer without her around to put a target on their backs...that is why she tried to flee England in the first place.  Sure they talked her into coming home, but she may have still believed that they would be in more danger with her there.  So I am sure she had multiple motives for that, saving Sherlock was definitely one, but also knowing that John and Rosie were going to be safer in the world with Sherlock Holmes around rather than her, played into her thinking too.  So she was selfless on two counts for doing that, sacrificing herself not just for Sherlock's life but also for her family's safety. (I think that's pretty noble, and I don't even like her lol)

 

 

I agree, Redbeard.  I think Mary was on a bit of a redemption arc as well, but it didn't really play out as strongly as others because she's not the focus of the show.  I mean, we're still actively debating (and will for a long while) exactly what the evolution of Sherlock's and John's characters was, and they are the leads of the show.  I think Mary developed from someone who perhaps still saw herself as a spy and part of the AGRA family to someone who realized her true family was John, Rosie, and Sherlock.

 

I liked TST.  I've watched it 5 times, and I really do think it's a good episode.  People have compared it to TBB, and I think that's fair in some respects; both of those episodes are workhorses that have to get a lot of things set up about the characters so that you can continue on into subsequent episodes.  And both of them have fairly weak case stories, although for this one, you can blame most of that on ACD and The Six Napoleons.  TST really had a lot it had to get done if we were going to be able to successfully do TLD and then have any sense of believeability about the relationships going into the stress of TFP.  So I think it is successful.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The idea of Mary sacrificing herself for Sherlock is ridiculous - not only did she happily shoot him, threaten to do so again, and then cheerily see him off on a suicide mission, but she also has a small child to think about - given her past actions there is no way I can believe she would place Sherlock's life over Rosie's wellbeing in having a mother. I know it was a split second decision, and that she was probably hoping the bullet would hit somewhere less vital, but I don't think she would even have the instinct to do that. Even if she'd tried to shove Sherlock aside and been hit it would have been move convincing than her diving in front of him. 

Just to comment on the bolded paragraph, I don't find the sacrifice ridiculous precisely because Mary had already made the decision that her family would be safer without her around to put a target on their backs...that is why she tried to flee England in the first place.  Sure they talked her into coming home, but she may have still believed that they would be in more danger with her there.  So I am sure she had multiple motives for that, saving Sherlock was definitely one, but also knowing that John and Rosie were going to be safer in the world with Sherlock Holmes around rather than her, played into her thinking too.  So she was selfless on two counts for doing that, sacrificing herself not just for Sherlock's life but also for her family's safety. (I think that's pretty noble, and I don't even like her lol)

 

I think they tried to show that Mary had a sense of loyalty to her "family"; she wanted to save Ajay, and I can imagine that earlier in her life, she would have taken a bullet for him, too. But her family includes Sherlock now.

 

And I also think there was a hint that she had accepted her appointment in Samarra by then; she was hoping to outrun it, but didn't really believe she would be able to for much longer.

 

But I agree, they could have told it all better. We were just asked to swallow too many things. Chief among them for me was the idea that an international assassin would have Mary's warm and "impish" personality. Killing people hardens you, I don't care if you're on the side of the angels or not. They didn't show that she regretted her old life, she was merely on the run from it.

 

Oh well. I liked Mary's personality; I just hated her profession. And I don't think she "happily" shot Sherlock; I think she genuinely regretted it, but thought she "had" to do it. Which I don't agree with, but I don't think we were asked to.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope every Sherlolly fan is aware that by making Sherlock and Molly joint godparents, the creators actually prevented any form of love/carnal relationship between them by canonical law, Evangelical, Anglican and Catholic. Not exactly sure about Orthodox, but if a couple is asked there, then they decide whether the husband or the wife becomes a godparent.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going to ask couldn't they just live in sin, but I suppose the churches would be against that too?  :cry:

 

Mrs. Hudson won't mind though. Actually, I thought having three godparents was not the norm, is that just here in Ireland.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Who's Online   0 Members, 1 Anonymous, 48 Guests (See full list)

    • There are no registered users currently online
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of UseWe have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.Privacy PolicyGuidelines.