Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"

[T.o.b.y]

My first reaction was not that John was blaming Sherlock for causing Mary's death, exactly; but that he was blaming him for not keeping his vow. We've seen, throughout the series, a John Watson that believes so fiercely in Sherlock Holmes that he forgives every lie, every thoughtless put down, every deception; or tries to. Sherlock has tried to warn him that he's no hero, but John's placed absolute faith in him anyway .... and once again he's let John down. But this time the consequences were unforgiveable.

 

It's not fair, and it's not rational. But I think it's believable that a man in the grips of grief and guilt would feel that way, and stay feeling that way for a long time. Especially a man like John, who's never been good at dealing with his emotions anyway.

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens if it turns out John really did have an affair and Sherlock finds out about it. I am a bit surprised he didn't deduce this, btw, and a bit suspicious too. But if it's for real... Sherlock I think believes as fiercely in his idealized version of John as vice versa and I wonder how he would react to disillusionment there.

[bedelia1984]

 

 

My first reaction was not that John was blaming Sherlock for causing Mary's death, exactly; but that he was blaming him for not keeping his vow. We've seen, throughout the series, a John Watson that believes so fiercely in Sherlock Holmes that he forgives every lie, every thoughtless put down, every deception; or tries to. Sherlock has tried to warn him that he's no hero, but John's placed absolute faith in him anyway .... and once again he's let John down. But this time the consequences were unforgiveable.

 

It's not fair, and it's not rational. But I think it's believable that a man in the grips of grief and guilt would feel that way, and stay feeling that way for a long time. Especially a man like John, who's never been good at dealing with his emotions anyway.

 

 

I can see that side to John's logic, actually (though I agree that it is not fair, or reasonable). The aspect of this which annoys me the most is that it takes Mary's autonomy away from her. She chose to throw herself in front of Sherlock. If that turns out to be how the story stands, then we have to assume she made that decision believing her family were safer with her dead, and Sherlock alive to protect them, than the reverse. How could anyone possibly have stopped her? It is like blaming someone for somebody else's suicide.

 

That said, was a part of me that was annoyed by Sherlock's need to have a sort of Murder She Wrote style Jessica Fletcher exposure of the villain scene (his drama queen side)- and the way that ultimately led to Mary being in danger- though I don't know if I am more annoyed at it from a narrative point of view (cheap plot device) than I am at his character directly. Like, did Mary and John need to be there for that? Also, it seemed like Lestrade and Mycroft were contributing very little. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we learned later that John was extra late to the scene because he was texting his fancy woman, thus increasing his guilt further. I know John is supposed to be grief stricken, and also feeling guilty, but the level of blame he's doling out to Sherlock still feels a bit childish.

 

I think I was initially responding more to what the writers have said about Sherlock now dealing with the consequences of his arrogance. And really, I should know by now to put little stock in pretty much anything they say.

[J.P.]

 

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens if it turns out John really did have an affair and Sherlock finds out about it. I am a bit surprised he didn't deduce this, btw, and a bit suspicious too.

You know, I don't think that John's texting is what we think it is.

[BLS_Pro]

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we learned later that John was extra late to the scene because he was texting his fancy woman, thus increasing his guilt further. I know John is supposed to be grief stricken, and also feeling guilty, but the level of blame he's doling out to Sherlock still feels a bit childish

 

I don't want this to be what they write (because the supposed 'dalliance' is SO out of character and UN-motivate), but I wouldn't be surprised if Moffat ends up having Watson's anger "You made a Vow" to be more anger at himself for 'breaking' his marriage Vow - and Watson's subsequent distancing of himself from Holmes to be Watson trying to keep Sherlock from deducing his 'infidelity'. 

 

I truly hope that the apparent 'affair' is actually part of an elaborate plot by Sherlock and Watson.  But, given how they've treated Sherlock since S3 (when they had Sherlock making "deductions" even HE was not AWARE of!!! - ie Mary is a Liar.  That is NOT how deduction works!), I don't think Moffat and Co hold Sherlock and his keen rationality in as high esteem as the rest of us.  More and more, IF they use it at all (rather than rely REPEATEDLY on stupid COINCIDENCES), they treat Sherlock's reasoning as akin to magic or as a punch line.  As such, I fear an elaborate plot by Sherlock is not in the cards here.

 

[Arcadia]

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens if it turns out John really did have an affair and Sherlock finds out about it. I am a bit surprised he didn't deduce this, btw, and a bit suspicious too. But if it's for real... Sherlock I think believes as fiercely in his idealized version of John as vice versa and I wonder how he would react to disillusionment there.

Ooooh, good point. Although given Sherlock's attitude towards marriage, maybe he wouldn't be as bothered as we think. Except that I believe he rather adored Mary.

 

I think Sherlock's been shown all along as having trouble deducing the people he really cares about, because sentiment clouds his judgement. So he might have noticed something was up with John but chose not to pay attention, just like he did with Mary.

  

 

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens if it turns out John really did have an affair and Sherlock finds out about it. I am a bit surprised he didn't deduce this, btw, and a bit suspicious too.

You know, I don't think that John's texting is what we think it is.

 

 

I think there's a good chance you're right. Although, if it's something else, then what "lie" was he about to confess to Mary?

[T.o.b.y]

I somehow doubt that the texting is all we were led to believe it was, too, but I haven't the foggiest idea about what the truth may be.

 

I actually wouldn't mind at all if it were just what it seemed. The show is becoming so outrageous that such a very mundane incident as a man cheating on his wife (or just contemplating the possibility) during the stressful time after the arrival of their first child would be a much-needed dash of realism.

 

I certainly don't think it's out of character for John. Original Dr Watson wouldn't have dreamed of such a thing, but he was a different person and his society had different morals.

 

I do believe John loved Mary very much, but my real life experiences (not with my own husband, no) tell me that loving your wife and having an affair are by no means mutually exclusive.

 

Besides, John and Mary were having problems beyond the usual new parents situation which is challenging enough. John with his "trust issues" finding himself married to a person whose name is unknown to him, whom he knows to be a perfect actress and professional liar and who is smarter, more competent and more ruthless than himself with a strong tendency to make her own decisions on her own and carry them through without consulting anyone, that can't have been easy.

 

This episode at least managed to make me like Mary a lot more than I did formerly. I like competent women and there aren't half enough of them on TV, certainly not beyond a certain age, married and with kids. And I am like her in that when push comes to shove, I tend to rely on myself first and foremost, run and try to sort things out without well-meaning people "hanging off my gun arm".

 

I see now why they had to get rid of her fast. She was too competent. If they want to expose Sherlock to some serious danger, that's easier with the friendly super agent out of the way and if they want him to pull off another stunt like The Fall, he has a much higher chance of success if Mary isn't there to see right through him.

[sherlockandjohn]

I am getting worried about the next episode. I think this is the first time I have actually dreaded an episode of Sherlock and wished that it didn't have to come so soon. After TRF, my favorite episode, I was expecting a fairly quick reconciliation, in which Sherlock was aware how John must have felt. A strange thing to expect from Sherlock, maybe, and I was certainly mistaken. This situation is much worse. Mary, John's beloved wife, is dead, and John blames Sherlock. I now fear that their friendship will not easily recover.

 

I didn't need a shock blanket for TST, but I think I will for TLD. :(

[J.P.]

Re John cheating:

I don't know about you, but first time I thought the woman in Bus smiles at John's daisy. But from her seat (if they aren't using mirrored images again here) she couldn't see it. One again sign that there is something odd with the whole thing.

 

I wasn't so surprised about John - from the beginning he was a kind of a compulsive skirt chaser. Once I've made my peace with this, it wasn't so out of character for me. He loves a thrill. Mary seems to be a better companion to Sherlock than he (the Toby scene), he needs some kind of another adventure for himself. Being a dad isn't enough.

Which again rises the question of consistency of the character - does he need adrenaline, or a sense of purpose? But again, S4 is to challenge our views of everyone.

[Inge l-w]

In Sherlockshome.net, there were articles about needing shock blankets for tomorrow evening, and how TFP got rated for over-15 ! That much violence speaks of Bond to me, not the highly elegant solutions found in S1 and S2. But if they have grown weary of coming up with new deductions, they should pack it in and let us enjoy our other favourite versions of Holmes, from Rathbone to Elementary, by way of the next Guy Ritchie film. Watching Iron Man trying to play Sherlock Holmes has always been a favourite of mine, because I cannot stop sniggering! :D

[Arcadia]

I see now why they had to get rid of her fast. She was too competent. If they want to expose Sherlock to some serious danger, that's easier with the friendly super agent out of the way and if they want him to pull off another stunt like The Fall, he has a much higher chance of success if Mary isn't there to see right through him.

 

Yes, I've come around to a similar conclusion, but that then raised the issue of .... why did they introduce her into the story in the first place, if she proved so inconvenient? And then the answer hit me ... because Moffat desperately wanted to write Sherlock's best man speech. But why make her a superspy/assassin? To me, that's still the poorest decision they've made on this show. I'm afraid the only answer I keep coming up with is because they don't know how else to show strong, competent women.

 

I wasn't so surprised about John - from the beginning he was a kind of a compulsive skirt chaser. Once I've made my peace with this, it wasn't so out of character for me. He loves a thrill. Mary seems to be a better companion to Sherlock than he (the Toby scene), he needs some kind of another adventure for himself. Being a dad isn't enough.

Which again rises the question of consistency of the character - does he need adrenaline, or a sense of purpose? But again, S4 is to challenge our views of everyone.

 

This one may be our fault ... they quite forthrightly told us in HLV that John's an adrenalin junkie, but I think most of us preferred a more dignified explanation, that he needs a sense of purpose. Plus Martin has been playing him as a very decent man, which doesn't really fit with adrenaline junkie, does it? And we've all noticed that temper of John's, it's just that it's mostly (not always) been played for laughs. But take away the humor and you don't have a very nice man.

 

Which also bothers me, but at least I find it believable.

 

I do like the idea that it's time to refocus on John's evolution as a character, and not just Sherlock's. I've been missing John Watson since TEH. Whether that's where they're going with this, though, I have no idea.

[Arcadia]

Okay, gang, what do we make of this?



I just thought Sherlock had sent both of them the same texts. But wandering around the web, I've noticed everyone else seems to think it's two independent messages. And looking at it like this, I have to concede the possibility ... stylistically, they are very different. The one on Mary's phone is almost poetry; the one on John's is more to the point.

 

If they are two separate messages, that opens up a whole new realm of possibilities, doesn't it? Mary's story may not be over yet. I would like something in the show that would make her seem not so arbitrary, but I guess we shall see. Or not.

[J.P.]

This are definitely two messages. SH is at the end of both. If it was one, there would be only one signature. Fascinating.

 

 

BTW, Sherlock quoting Spock over Toby

[Arcadia]

Yeah, I didn't make myself clear ... it's definitely two messages. But I just thought he sent both messages to both of them, not a different message to each one.

[T.o.b.y]

But why make her a superspy/assassin? To me, that's still the poorest decision they've made on this show. I'm afraid the only answer I keep coming up with is because they don't know how else to show strong, competent women.

 

I don't think it was a particularly good idea, either. But of course they do know how to do strong, competent women without all this fuss - look at Janine, Molly, Mrs Hudson, Sally Donovan. Sarah, too. They're all pretty ordinary yet also pretty cool and certainly good at what they do.

 

My best guess is that they simply found the original Miss Morstan boring, which she is, in my opinion. They wanted to do something new with her, something that nobody expected and that would shock the audience (they do love shocking us, don't they). And they knew they weren't going to keep her around permanently so if they wrote themselves into a corner with her, that wouldn't matter in the long run.

 

Whatever the reason, it's still my least favorite artistic choice on the show. But boy, does Amanda Abbington ever make the most of it! I really do have the highest respect for her as an actress.

 

This one may be our fault ... they quite forthrightly told us in HLV that John's an adrenalin junkie, but I think most of us preferred a more dignified explanation, that he needs a sense of purpose. Plus Martin has been playing him as a very decent man, which doesn't really fit with adrenaline junkie, does it? And we've all noticed that temper of John's, it's just that it's mostly (not always) been played for laughs. But take away the humor and you don't have a very nice man.

 

He isn't a nice man any more than Sherlock is. Never has been, if you ask me. And there was always an element of reluctance, even hostility, in his friendship with Sherlock. I suspect that in the ideal version of John's life from his point of view, he wouldn't be friends with such people at all. He also would not have married an assassin.

 

John is interesting because he's a very different person from whom he wants to be, at least that's my interpretation of him. He'd really like to be normal, but instead of being haunted by the war, he misses it and he's friends with a sociopath and falls in love with a rogue agent. A quiet life, an orderly GP practice and domestic bliss, make him restless instead of fulfilling needs he thinks he has or should have. In my eyes, he's a man at war with himself.

 

I do hope he won't go on blaming Sherlock for Mary's death for ever. It's not only unreasonable and unfair towards Sherlock but also an insult to his deceased wife because it's like he assumes she had no control over her fate, she was just "under Sherlock's protection" and that protection failed. John, you ass, Mary needs protection from you two less than anybody in the world and if she decides to jump in front of a gun, that's her choice and she has a perfectly good right to make it. You really are as Victorian in your attitudes as Sherlock painted you in his Mind Palace Drug Trip.

[J.P.]

Assorted Thoughts about S4 after seeing it 3 times. Sorry, I apparently lost the ability to write coherently. :(

Well, I have to mention that the episode tickles two of my favourite themes. It almost sounded as if Sherlock was quoting me :D

First: intuition as a product of subconscious „deductions“ and noticing things we don’t know we notice. Sherlock mentions it at least twice, and he seems to have a „funny feeling“ about things all the time.

Second: coincidence versus determinism. Personally, I don’t think that there is such a thing as chaos and chance. Chaotic systems are just to complicated to predict. And if we knew the exact state of every atom in a system, we could describe the exact future of it.

So, if your brain has enough data to process beneath the conscious thinking, you will get a flashes of precognition. I think Mary was able to foresee that Mrs Norbury will shoot, that’s why she could take the bullet - she started to move before the shot actually happened. Even if it’s not really shown that way.

The whole episode is about fate. The Tale of the Merchant is about fate. Some old story rattled between my brain cells wanting my attention, but I needed a bit of googling to find out it was Oedipus. The one who tried to avoid his fate and by trying - met it at the end.

What I don’t really understand, why Mary entered the room thinking that there is a kind of trouble inside.
And then death of AJ. is another problematic bit (BTW, the subtitles said: Ajay, another ambiguous name/abbreviation thing): It feels not right, and it could be done better without much trouble (the policeman shouts: Police, drop the gun! Mary does, but AJ turns around aiming at him, so there would be a direct reason why the policeman had to shoot him). Then, there is the red point of the laser tracer, but AJs pistol has none attached.

Music: there is no the Game is On theme in the whole episode!
The music during Mary’s journey has a slight underlying of the theme from the confrontation with the Cabbie and Jim at the pool.
As Mycroft calls Sherrinford there is a new musical motif appearing.

So we know that Greg knows Sherlock for 10 years, so they must have meet 2006.

The woman detective looked a bit like Janine. Was she talking with Greg about Sherlock when she said: it’s nothing serious?! And there was DI Gimmick talking about the limbless body, or did I dream it?

Sherlock said in HLV that Mary is hiding from someone. It wasn’t AGRA, because she thought all are dead.

Who sent the CD with Mary’s message?
When she says „save John Watson“ she… how do you call the head movement that’s opposite to nodding? Anyway, it would indicate she doesn’t mean what she says.

The airplane scene was fantastic. I hardly recognised Mary/Amanda at all! She was so good in her ridiculousness.

Medicaments all over 221B. They are not in the online version, but if you look at the promo pics or even in the episode, there are PLENTY of bottles/containers looking like medicaments.

I think, Sherlock’s hair is shorter. A bit. On the neck.

There are no new blog entries (which was announced) but also no Twitter posts from Sherlock (that we expected after it was announced) Sloppiness? Or - again TST isn’t real. :D

Weirdness of Ella’s room.

 

The empty kitchen might belong to Mycroft’s bunker. His home looks more homely.

PS watching The Poirot movie I mentioned before, didn’t bring much, beside the tale being presented again, ridiculous plot, cheesy ending and a bit of Mark Gatis. But it had a fantastic quotation from Poirot himself: You see, mon ami, the voices of the little gray cells have begun to sing to Poirot.
:D

I love when my gray cells start to sing!

[bedelia1984]

Here's one idea- 'The curtain rises' and 'the last act', are both theatrical terms- so are they insinuating that what happens next is a bit of theater- with John as the audience?

 

So, Sherlock and Mary plan between them how to fake her death- either get the woman to shoot her, or have her jump in front of Sherlock etc etc, and John is their most important witness. Sherlock keeps his vow, but John is in the dark.

 

I think that is backed up by her 'being Mary Watson' line too.

 

 

You know, I don't think that John's texting is what we think it is.

 

 

 

Is it possible he has been going along with the texting, knowing it is a trap, either with Sherlock's blessing (for a case) or just for the thrill?

[Amber§]

Hi guys! Sorry if I'm not very participating, but university is getting more and more demanding, so I don't have much time. Unfortunately, I've seen the new episode only yesterday, so I couldn't participate to the discussion from the beginning. I've tried to read all your posts but they are so many (13 pages), so I've read only one here, one there, you understand, so I can jump now into the discussion!

Soooooo

 

I loved this episode! At first, I was a bit traumatised, but then I started to see all the interesting clues and facts, also reading your posts.

 

First thing: I really didn't expect them to kill Mary, at least not like that, almost by accident. She could die in 10000 other ways, but she died thanks to a stupid (sorry) secretary. No, I can't believe that. Although, I also don't think that It's a fake death, because Sherlock seems to be really shocked. I'm shocked too.

 

Then, I totally agree with some of you (I don't remember who, sorry) about the fact that I don't want to see two other episodes with Watson hating Sherlock and other things like that. I know, Sherlock made a vow, but it's not his fault if Mary's dead. Well, a little bit is his fault, because he had to keep her away from danger, but we've seen that Mary had no intenctions to be protected. And  I believe that Watson knows that, but he is suffering too muche and he needs someone to be angry with and who's better that his sociopathic and egocentric and very unpleasant friend?

 

I would also say that this time Sherlock was totally wrong, about the black pearl, that's a very strange thing. He's loosing, from some point of view, don't you think?

[J.P.]

 

Is it possible he has been going along with the texting, knowing it is a trap, either with Sherlock's blessing (for a case) or just for the thrill?

I actually meant that John might be texting someone else at night.

As he sent "hi" to E she apparently reacted with another "hi" immediately, but John left his phone on the table. He might have overseen her answer if he was busy afterwards.

[J.P.]

 

I would also say that this time Sherlock was totally wrong, about the black pearl, that's a very strange thing. He's loosing, from some point of view, don't you think?

Yes, it reminds me of his struggle in TRF somehow. On the other hand it's John who made him a super-human in his blog.

[BLS_Pro]

 

Here's one idea- 'The curtain rises' and 'the last act', are both theatrical terms- so are they insinuating that what happens next is a bit of theater- with John as the audience?

I questioned this as well, back on Jan 2nd:  http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/3542-episode-41-the-six-thatchers/?view=findpost&p=112902

 

And the fact that Mary seemingly manipulated the argument so that it seemed John sent her alone first would indicate this was indeed a setup (even though I'll be upset if her death was indeed just another plot repeat of faking death and not telling John).  Though, thinking about it, one could easily argue the reverse and claim John manipulated Mary into going first (as part of the flirt girl texting plan or the like).  IF that is the case, then John's angry accusation "You made a VOW!" would have more meaning - ie 'You had me do the other and I trusted you to take care of her here.  You failed in that ONE job!'

 

Of course, Arcadia could be right as well.  It bothered me at the time that the note to Mary didn't include WHERE to go.  I presumed that meant John and Mary shared their texts with one another - because it doesn't make sense for Sherlock to end each set of thoughts or each text balloon SH.  He has sent multiple texts in the past, each ending SH.  But they were always presented as an idea he added after the original ie 'Come if convenient.  SH' followed by the afterthought: 'If inconvenient, still come.  SH'.  MAYBE they were intended to be a single message to both.  If true, then it is again bad writing/directing.  But the presentation of it still makes me think it was two different messages, each sent to one person only.

 

Just another reason I don't like this episode.

[BLS_Pro]

 

 

Is it possible he has been going along with the texting, knowing it is a trap, either with Sherlock's blessing (for a case) or just for the thrill?

I actually meant that John might be texting someone else at night.

If true, that would be REALLY bad writing, since it isn't Mary and it isn't Sherlock he is texting (Mary we know for obvious reasons, Sherlock because John's question: "Night owl?" indicates he doesn't know the person well.  He would know that about Sherlock).

 

As such, if it is NOT the flirt girl he is txting, then it is someone we haven't met at all in the episode, and the writers are purposefully deceiving the audience (and ONLY the audience, not anyone in the episode) making them think it is the flirt girl whom he DID text earlier and then later.  Deceiving the audience and NOT the characters (as opposed to deceiving the characters and thereby the audience) is HORRIBLE writing.

 

Addendum:  It will be EXTREMELY bad writing/directing if it isn't the girl that he was txting, because the flashback to the in-the-bed texting is bookended by John, on the plane back to London thinking about the girl.  The flashback sequence is ALL the instances of him texting- and some we KNOW are the girl.  So if it is NOT him texting the girl in that ONE instance among all the others when he DID, then that is both COINCIDENCE and DECEPTION of the AUDIENCE alone.  That is such BAD writing that, if it turns out to be true, I'm dropping the series completely.

[BLS_Pro]

Another Question:  Have we ever seen Sherlock outright lie to Mycroft?  Especially in regard to inconsequential things?  [Asking seriously.  If it did happen, I don't recall it.  As such, it seems to be another out of character thing (presented solely for comedy) in 4.1]

[J.P.]

Oh, don't remember that.

 

A side note: after seeing a fanart I realized that the best qualified person for babysitting little Rosie - apart from Mom and Dad Holmes - is… Mycroft. ^_^

Don't know if he had to change nappies, but in my headcanon he had to be quite involved in Sherlock's upbringing.

[Arcadia]

I don't think we can know for sure if Sherlock lies to Mycroft or not. For example, he sometimes says he knows things ... like saying he realizes John slept on the sofa at Sarah's ... but he could be fibbing just so he doesn't look stupider than Mycroft.

 

I don't remember which scene you're referring to in this episode either, but Sherlock lies so often to so many people when it serves his purpose; I don't see why he'd stop when it came to Mycroft.

[J.P.]

Maybe because Mycroft would see it.